Fellow HOW'ers, I have found out several very disturbing items about our Hunter dealer. We have a 1998 376 that we bought new. Upon the first recommissioning, we ordered an engine oil and filter change. I marked the filter by scratching the casing. I admit this is an untrusting act but I wanted to check. To my surprise, the dealer never changed the engine fuel filter. This was clearly a part of the service package that we had ordered and paid for. When I confronted the owner, he said I was wrong. The filter was a cartridge and I had marked the casing. The scratch was gone the following week. They had replaced it subsequently. I have changed it since. It is not a cartridge but just like an oil filter, it has a metal shell casing. I was willing to justify this as " things happen, maybe a lazy or disgruntled employee, miscommunication, etc." Last week, we were on our vacation from the Chesapeake to New York City. Our autopilot failed. Being fairly mechanical, we researched the problem. We found that the pulley attached to the shaft of the steering wheel had come loose. To my disbelief, the temporary pulley that the marina had installed was NEVER replaced. We paid for a factory pulley. Waited for it. The dealer had a non spec pulley drilled out so that we could test the unit and pay for it. The following year, we were delayed from going to our new marina by the fact that the new pulley was not installed. After it was allegedly installed, we went on our merry way. We were charged a few hundred dollars for it in the initial installation cost. And I now found out, on our vacation, that they never replaced the temporary pulley!!!!! This is now more than coincidence! We bought this boat because of the Hunter reputation and the marina reputation. If I make a big fuss over this, where do we bring the boat for service? How do we ever bring it back and trust that the work will be done? This is a mess! I am told that this is how marinas operate. That is unacceptable! I am going to copy this to the Hunter factory. Please advise on what we should do. Mike DiMario Media, PA s/v Serenity Hunter 376
- Status
MAKE A BIG STINK
2) Make sure Hunter knows all about it. 3) Learn how to do the work yourself. If it screws up you've got no one else to blame. On the other hand, it's nice to know you can get yourself home if something breaks.
2) Make sure Hunter knows all about it. 3) Learn how to do the work yourself. If it screws up you've got no one else to blame. On the other hand, it's nice to know you can get yourself home if something breaks.
Accusations not based on facts
Mr. DiMario; I read your post on the HOW today and am shocked to hear the accusations you are publicly making about Tidewater and/or our employees. I certainly would have hoped that you would call me to discuss these issues rather than resorting to such an antagonistic approach. Since you have chosen this route, I will respond in the same manner. 1) Engine fuel filter not changed: On 6/29/98 we performed an engine OIL and OIL FILTER change on your vessel as you requested. This does not include a fuel filter change. You did not pay for a fuel filter change. The only other record I have of engine work is the winterization package that we performed 12/16/98. Both charged out at the store and handwritten on the work order are an element for a Racor 110, and a Yanmar secondary #129470-55701. I find it very hard to believe that both my mechanic and my store’s inventory are lying about what went on your boat. 2) The autopilot drive gear was never replaced: My records show the installation with the temporary gear occurred on 12/11/98 to allow you to test the unit before the end of the season. Because of delays from the manufacturer and your impatience to test the unit I, at the expense of several hundred extra dollars, obtained and machined a temporary gear to accommodate you. My records reflect going back to the boat 2/17/99 to replace that gear. The temporary gear is sitting on my desk as I write this. In addition to giving you a very attractive price on the autopilot, I did a number of ‘extras’ at no cost. For example, I fabricated and installed a bail to protect the steaming light at my expense (Since no one else has been able to knock that steaming light off, Hunter did not share one nickel of the expense for fixing and upgrading the light). We also went aloft to install your spinnaker halyard at no charge. We reinstalled the mainsail and bimini (a two hour job) at no charge as well. I am very disturbed to find that the owner that I tried so hard to go the extra distance for ends up stabbing me in the back. I cannot imagine ever being able to return to a positive working relationship with someone filled with such mistrust and so quick to let fly with ill-founded accusations. Sincerely, Garrett J. Pensell Service Manager Tidewater Marina
Mr. DiMario; I read your post on the HOW today and am shocked to hear the accusations you are publicly making about Tidewater and/or our employees. I certainly would have hoped that you would call me to discuss these issues rather than resorting to such an antagonistic approach. Since you have chosen this route, I will respond in the same manner. 1) Engine fuel filter not changed: On 6/29/98 we performed an engine OIL and OIL FILTER change on your vessel as you requested. This does not include a fuel filter change. You did not pay for a fuel filter change. The only other record I have of engine work is the winterization package that we performed 12/16/98. Both charged out at the store and handwritten on the work order are an element for a Racor 110, and a Yanmar secondary #129470-55701. I find it very hard to believe that both my mechanic and my store’s inventory are lying about what went on your boat. 2) The autopilot drive gear was never replaced: My records show the installation with the temporary gear occurred on 12/11/98 to allow you to test the unit before the end of the season. Because of delays from the manufacturer and your impatience to test the unit I, at the expense of several hundred extra dollars, obtained and machined a temporary gear to accommodate you. My records reflect going back to the boat 2/17/99 to replace that gear. The temporary gear is sitting on my desk as I write this. In addition to giving you a very attractive price on the autopilot, I did a number of ‘extras’ at no cost. For example, I fabricated and installed a bail to protect the steaming light at my expense (Since no one else has been able to knock that steaming light off, Hunter did not share one nickel of the expense for fixing and upgrading the light). We also went aloft to install your spinnaker halyard at no charge. We reinstalled the mainsail and bimini (a two hour job) at no charge as well. I am very disturbed to find that the owner that I tried so hard to go the extra distance for ends up stabbing me in the back. I cannot imagine ever being able to return to a positive working relationship with someone filled with such mistrust and so quick to let fly with ill-founded accusations. Sincerely, Garrett J. Pensell Service Manager Tidewater Marina
Oh the joy!
Garrett - on days like this the prospect of operating a hot dog stand always looks good - (You don't like the hot dog? OK here is your two buck back as you throw it in the trash) man that would feel good as you watch the guy walk away hungry. I personally have found that every marina I have had the pleasure to deal with that they all seem to get a bad wrap by a certain type of owner, don't take it to seriously in that the general owner does not listen to sympathetically to their complaints. Why does it cost so much to? is usually predicated by a need to express their importance as a person spending lavishly. Sort of like a right of passage. The obvious things like tying up a lift to pull a boat can take 1-2 hours of three men, plus capital equipment cost, insurance for operating, and maybe some profit. Most marinas charge about the same rates for this service, but I sure hear a lot of complaining about it. In short when you ask for an oil change, why would you expect the fuel filter to be changed ? terry
Garrett - on days like this the prospect of operating a hot dog stand always looks good - (You don't like the hot dog? OK here is your two buck back as you throw it in the trash) man that would feel good as you watch the guy walk away hungry. I personally have found that every marina I have had the pleasure to deal with that they all seem to get a bad wrap by a certain type of owner, don't take it to seriously in that the general owner does not listen to sympathetically to their complaints. Why does it cost so much to? is usually predicated by a need to express their importance as a person spending lavishly. Sort of like a right of passage. The obvious things like tying up a lift to pull a boat can take 1-2 hours of three men, plus capital equipment cost, insurance for operating, and maybe some profit. Most marinas charge about the same rates for this service, but I sure hear a lot of complaining about it. In short when you ask for an oil change, why would you expect the fuel filter to be changed ? terry
Tidewater Not Named
TO all and Garrett as well, Yes to all, Garrett and Tidewataer did do a lot of extra things for us. We truly do apreciate that. We also did an abundancet of things as well. For instance, waited for the busy spring season to pass so that the marina could fix items on "off" times. I rewired the refrigerator circuit for the thermostat. Removed the defective battery charger ourselves. Repaired the refrigerator latch. The other issues never repaired since we are on it, are: the main reefing line splice, the boom vang adjustment, the warped teak due to a leak not fixed until the very latest date. I am not writing here to get sympathy or one upmanship. We have a serious service problem of things not being done as they are said to be done. I have the Invoice from the Spring engine special indicating the fuel filter was to be changed and I have of records of paying the cost that matches the special price. I also have in my possesion, on our boat the TEMPORARY PULLEY that was never changed. I guess I would deny it in public as well. I will get a digital camera to publicly display what Tidewater calls the permanent pulley. I am not afraid to back up what I wrote. here again not naming Tidewater intensionally. I did not mention the marina name intentionally to avoid a pis___ing contest. Butm, I guess if the maarina is going to publicly deny it, I may as well present the evidence officially! What a shame. I have had a very good, especially good relationship with Garrett, and Tideater. It still is not cause to sit still for this poor customer service. Mike D
TO all and Garrett as well, Yes to all, Garrett and Tidewataer did do a lot of extra things for us. We truly do apreciate that. We also did an abundancet of things as well. For instance, waited for the busy spring season to pass so that the marina could fix items on "off" times. I rewired the refrigerator circuit for the thermostat. Removed the defective battery charger ourselves. Repaired the refrigerator latch. The other issues never repaired since we are on it, are: the main reefing line splice, the boom vang adjustment, the warped teak due to a leak not fixed until the very latest date. I am not writing here to get sympathy or one upmanship. We have a serious service problem of things not being done as they are said to be done. I have the Invoice from the Spring engine special indicating the fuel filter was to be changed and I have of records of paying the cost that matches the special price. I also have in my possesion, on our boat the TEMPORARY PULLEY that was never changed. I guess I would deny it in public as well. I will get a digital camera to publicly display what Tidewater calls the permanent pulley. I am not afraid to back up what I wrote. here again not naming Tidewater intensionally. I did not mention the marina name intentionally to avoid a pis___ing contest. Butm, I guess if the maarina is going to publicly deny it, I may as well present the evidence officially! What a shame. I have had a very good, especially good relationship with Garrett, and Tideater. It still is not cause to sit still for this poor customer service. Mike D
I don't think this belongs here
I don't want to offend anyone, but I don't think that this thread is going to be helpful to participants. I'm a lawyer. I have been involved in thousands of cases where each side is positive that they have been wronged. Unfortunately, regardless of what is said or shown, they never work it out. But even more difficult is for outside parties, without independant investigative resources, to achieve an informed, educated opinion of the merits of each sides arguments. I can honestly say that, having read the postings so far, I don't have a bad opinion of the marina/dealer. And I also don't think that Mike is irrational is his complaints. And as much as I would hope that they can sit down and person-to-person, talk this through, this board probably won't help bring them together. Perhaps, it will create more animosity. So, having added to this controversy, I'm going to suggest that both sides take this elsewhere. Hopefully in a discussion to each other, open-minded and willing to discuss that both probably made some mistakes. It will be a shame if initial, non-malicious misunderstandings, interfere with otherwise good people, achieving a good, working relationship. (Hopefully, no one takes this to court where no one wins!) Regardless of whether the principals can talk to each other, I think that more, or repeated, accusations and counter-accusations will do nothing to solve the problems expressed by both sides, regardless of the truths contained therein. Just my humble opinion.
I don't want to offend anyone, but I don't think that this thread is going to be helpful to participants. I'm a lawyer. I have been involved in thousands of cases where each side is positive that they have been wronged. Unfortunately, regardless of what is said or shown, they never work it out. But even more difficult is for outside parties, without independant investigative resources, to achieve an informed, educated opinion of the merits of each sides arguments. I can honestly say that, having read the postings so far, I don't have a bad opinion of the marina/dealer. And I also don't think that Mike is irrational is his complaints. And as much as I would hope that they can sit down and person-to-person, talk this through, this board probably won't help bring them together. Perhaps, it will create more animosity. So, having added to this controversy, I'm going to suggest that both sides take this elsewhere. Hopefully in a discussion to each other, open-minded and willing to discuss that both probably made some mistakes. It will be a shame if initial, non-malicious misunderstandings, interfere with otherwise good people, achieving a good, working relationship. (Hopefully, no one takes this to court where no one wins!) Regardless of whether the principals can talk to each other, I think that more, or repeated, accusations and counter-accusations will do nothing to solve the problems expressed by both sides, regardless of the truths contained therein. Just my humble opinion.
judge JUDY has spoken form above 
funny thing about lawyers -- takes five paragraphs ta say -- we should not talk about this LOL
funny thing about lawyers -- takes five paragraphs ta say -- we should not talk about this LOL
Well put, Ron
I agree, this doesn't belong here. Sounds like a conversation that should be held directly between the owner and dealer. Thanks!
I agree, this doesn't belong here. Sounds like a conversation that should be held directly between the owner and dealer. Thanks!
I agree!
To ALL HOW's, Thanks, but this went nowhere. I earnestly was looking for guidance not contraversy. Thank all of you for you input. I think I would like this thread to end as well. I will take it up with Hunter and Tidewater at this point. By the way, special thanks to Ron Dague for your guidance. So far as Terry, I hope that you never need to go through this. You seem to be judgmental, very one sided and unduly opinionated! Happy sailing, Mike D
To ALL HOW's, Thanks, but this went nowhere. I earnestly was looking for guidance not contraversy. Thank all of you for you input. I think I would like this thread to end as well. I will take it up with Hunter and Tidewater at this point. By the way, special thanks to Ron Dague for your guidance. So far as Terry, I hope that you never need to go through this. You seem to be judgmental, very one sided and unduly opinionated! Happy sailing, Mike D
Hunter Customer Service
After experiencing what I perceived as poor service from our dealer following the purchase of our 340 I contacted Hunter Customer Sevice who in turn expressed my concerns to the dealer. This did get results. By working together with the dealer we have resolved most of my concerns & continue to maintain a harmonious relationship. I completed numerous repairs & adjustments myself from information obtained through the Hunter Owner Forum. As result, I have a far better understanding of the systems employed in our boat which will be of benefit down the line.
After experiencing what I perceived as poor service from our dealer following the purchase of our 340 I contacted Hunter Customer Sevice who in turn expressed my concerns to the dealer. This did get results. By working together with the dealer we have resolved most of my concerns & continue to maintain a harmonious relationship. I completed numerous repairs & adjustments myself from information obtained through the Hunter Owner Forum. As result, I have a far better understanding of the systems employed in our boat which will be of benefit down the line.
Don't be to harsh on Mike
I've known Mike D here on HOW for a couple of years. I've read his thoughful and insightful posts and we've even communicated privately through e-mail on issues regarding our specific boats 376/380. He's not a bad guy! Now that doesn't mean I'm sticking up for this discussion being held in public instead of private. No greater good for this group is served by lambasting someone (even without naming names), especially someone you need, to get things satisfied. As a professional conflict resolver with some experience I've always found three versions of the truth; his, theirs, and the somewhere in the middle ground truth is usually where I find common ground to reunite two differing parties. I hope the the marina general manager will reach out to Mike and take the professional approach and keep their discussion private. Mike I hope you get your boat fixed to your satisfaction and remember whatever happens nobody is responsible for our boats but us. Have the work done, check it out, and pay promptly for good work. Good luck with your resolution. Bob Knott H380 S/V Serenity
I've known Mike D here on HOW for a couple of years. I've read his thoughful and insightful posts and we've even communicated privately through e-mail on issues regarding our specific boats 376/380. He's not a bad guy! Now that doesn't mean I'm sticking up for this discussion being held in public instead of private. No greater good for this group is served by lambasting someone (even without naming names), especially someone you need, to get things satisfied. As a professional conflict resolver with some experience I've always found three versions of the truth; his, theirs, and the somewhere in the middle ground truth is usually where I find common ground to reunite two differing parties. I hope the the marina general manager will reach out to Mike and take the professional approach and keep their discussion private. Mike I hope you get your boat fixed to your satisfaction and remember whatever happens nobody is responsible for our boats but us. Have the work done, check it out, and pay promptly for good work. Good luck with your resolution. Bob Knott H380 S/V Serenity
I vote for Mike.....
Don't care for laywers, boat dealers, used car dealers...... considering we spend thousands & thousands, the damn thing better have all systems working right.
Don't care for laywers, boat dealers, used car dealers...... considering we spend thousands & thousands, the damn thing better have all systems working right.
Check this out!
A new one. I asked three of our marina neighbors to witness the removal and picture taking of the pulley that Tidewater proclaims they replaced. In light of Mr. Pensill demeanor and response, I anticipate they may accuse me of switching the pulleys! I have been in the Mechanical Contracting Business ALL OF MY WORKING LIFE. I do know what how a pulley mounts to a shaft, even though the application may be nautical. On of our neigbor's repsonse was " this is why so many Hunter owners on the upper bay go to Norton's in the lower bay, a major inconvenience." All we wanted was what we paid for! Our neighbor claims they were cheated of the storage frame that came with their boat. THEY HAVE A BILL OF SALE! Tidewater refused to turn it over to them. THey are obviously still very angry. Their boat is about ten years old. Then, they proceeded to go on and on about other HUNTER owners that they know.. I WISHED WE HAD THIS INFO BEFORE BUYING OUR HUNTER! Information can be a powerfull thing. I just want what we paid for! I am going to contact the factory for help or suggetions. There is no reason for this. Tidewater mailed their reponse to my home. I think Mr. Pensill is correct about possibily never being able to restore a good relationship. I guess we need to go to the lower bay. We'll be greatly inconvenienced. All because of the inflamatory and defensive stance and not standing up to the issues. We would like them to give us what we paid for in spite of their angry response. Thanks Bob Knott and all others who supported us. We ARE reponsible and reasonable people who spent a lot of money and needt more than our dealer turnig his back on us and taking the easy way out! Totally unacceptable! respectfully, Mike D. cc: Hunter Factory
A new one. I asked three of our marina neighbors to witness the removal and picture taking of the pulley that Tidewater proclaims they replaced. In light of Mr. Pensill demeanor and response, I anticipate they may accuse me of switching the pulleys! I have been in the Mechanical Contracting Business ALL OF MY WORKING LIFE. I do know what how a pulley mounts to a shaft, even though the application may be nautical. On of our neigbor's repsonse was " this is why so many Hunter owners on the upper bay go to Norton's in the lower bay, a major inconvenience." All we wanted was what we paid for! Our neighbor claims they were cheated of the storage frame that came with their boat. THEY HAVE A BILL OF SALE! Tidewater refused to turn it over to them. THey are obviously still very angry. Their boat is about ten years old. Then, they proceeded to go on and on about other HUNTER owners that they know.. I WISHED WE HAD THIS INFO BEFORE BUYING OUR HUNTER! Information can be a powerfull thing. I just want what we paid for! I am going to contact the factory for help or suggetions. There is no reason for this. Tidewater mailed their reponse to my home. I think Mr. Pensill is correct about possibily never being able to restore a good relationship. I guess we need to go to the lower bay. We'll be greatly inconvenienced. All because of the inflamatory and defensive stance and not standing up to the issues. We would like them to give us what we paid for in spite of their angry response. Thanks Bob Knott and all others who supported us. We ARE reponsible and reasonable people who spent a lot of money and needt more than our dealer turnig his back on us and taking the easy way out! Totally unacceptable! respectfully, Mike D. cc: Hunter Factory
Other choices
I have done business with Tidewater for years, and have had no problems. But I am a consumate do it myselfer. The thought that you have to have your boat serviced by a Hunter dealer is utterly false. Between Tolchester and Nortons are some of the finest marine facilities in the nation. Open up the yellow pages for Annapolis and find whatever service you may need. Annapolis is a lot closer than Nortons, and unless you are dealing with warrenty issues, I am sure you can find whatever service you need 75 miles closer.
I have done business with Tidewater for years, and have had no problems. But I am a consumate do it myselfer. The thought that you have to have your boat serviced by a Hunter dealer is utterly false. Between Tolchester and Nortons are some of the finest marine facilities in the nation. Open up the yellow pages for Annapolis and find whatever service you may need. Annapolis is a lot closer than Nortons, and unless you are dealing with warrenty issues, I am sure you can find whatever service you need 75 miles closer.
Your right Clyde
Dear Clyde, You are right about service choices. I guess my human tendencies took over and I thought Hunter dealer all the way. I think that I feel more comfortable with a Hunter dealer but, as you have pointed out, it is not a necessity. We bought this boat new and part of our purchase choice was a reliable and honest dealer, for support. Tidewater is ver good. They are nice people, have treated us well and do a nice job MOST of the time. As you can see, when it goes a little sour, they fold ! Mike D
Dear Clyde, You are right about service choices. I guess my human tendencies took over and I thought Hunter dealer all the way. I think that I feel more comfortable with a Hunter dealer but, as you have pointed out, it is not a necessity. We bought this boat new and part of our purchase choice was a reliable and honest dealer, for support. Tidewater is ver good. They are nice people, have treated us well and do a nice job MOST of the time. As you can see, when it goes a little sour, they fold ! Mike D
The Mike & Garrett Show
Here I sit out on the left coast. Reading your story, I'm think about being in business for myself. I am not writing this to defend anyone or really make judgement but as I see this thing there is probably more mis-communications here than intent. I doubt if Garrett Pensell did any of the work that was scheduled to be done. Therefore, he was relying on one or more employees to do their tasks. When he gets the work order back from the employee indicating that the work was done, he assumes they did their job. Weather or not the employee did the entire job or not he probably indicates that the job is complete. The bill is presented to the customer and now the controversey begins. The customer indicates that some of the work is not done and Mr Pensell askes the employee/employees if they did everything or not. "Of course we did", they reply. Now Mr. Pensell reiterates to the customer what the employee indicated and here we are. I have some friends in the Chesapeake area and they speak highly of Tidewater. Maybe what needs to be done is someone should QC the work that was performed. Also I am not sure but why are the parts that are replaced not returned to the customers. This is common in the auto industry. I would say good luck to all parties concerned and hopfully everyone will learn something here. To all that say this should be taken to another place for discussion, I disagree. This is just another learning experience.
Here I sit out on the left coast. Reading your story, I'm think about being in business for myself. I am not writing this to defend anyone or really make judgement but as I see this thing there is probably more mis-communications here than intent. I doubt if Garrett Pensell did any of the work that was scheduled to be done. Therefore, he was relying on one or more employees to do their tasks. When he gets the work order back from the employee indicating that the work was done, he assumes they did their job. Weather or not the employee did the entire job or not he probably indicates that the job is complete. The bill is presented to the customer and now the controversey begins. The customer indicates that some of the work is not done and Mr Pensell askes the employee/employees if they did everything or not. "Of course we did", they reply. Now Mr. Pensell reiterates to the customer what the employee indicated and here we are. I have some friends in the Chesapeake area and they speak highly of Tidewater. Maybe what needs to be done is someone should QC the work that was performed. Also I am not sure but why are the parts that are replaced not returned to the customers. This is common in the auto industry. I would say good luck to all parties concerned and hopfully everyone will learn something here. To all that say this should be taken to another place for discussion, I disagree. This is just another learning experience.
- Status