DC electric panel troubleshooting

[crownjewel]

The switches on the panel for the bilge and freshwater pumps turn on and off together. I can't turn on either of them alone without the other one turning on as well. More urgently, the float switch in the bilge does not turn on. 2005 Beneteau 323. My experience with electrical issues is almost zero. Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[dlochner]

Welcome to SBO.

The float switch issue is probably a failed float switch. These have notoriously short lives. There are other alternatives that operate electronically and there is the Ultra Bilge Pump switches.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say the 2 pump switches turn off and on together. Are the two physically connected?

 

[Stu Jackson]

My experience with electrical issues is almost zero. Any advice would be appreciated.

Nice boat. Welcome to SBO.

One of the best things you can do some research and homework, in addition to asking here.
Many of us believe in the concept of teaching a man to fish...
None of us was born a boat electrical systems expert.
We all spent time learning, via books, magazines, articles and, for those of you these days, the internet.
Many of us learned about this stuff before the internet! How medieval... And yet, it could be and was done.
So, CJ, spend a day reading at least the topics (i.e., headlines) at these two 'sites, and go out and buy Charlie Wing's boat electric book (I'll even send you a copy I got on the internet for free and legally a few years ago if you pm me and ask).

Electrical Systems 101 Electrical Systems 101

www.marinehowto.com

You'll need to start tracing wires and opening up your electrical panel if that's where the switch is.

 

[Head Sail]

Trace the red wire to the bilge switch. Then trace the wire to the pump. At some point, the two are connected.

 

[crownjewel]

Thank you for the advice, gentlemen.
It was either Socrates or Monty Python who said "I do not know what I do not know".

 

[Scott T-Bird]

You do need to read and learn as much as you can absorb if you are going to be an owner of a sailboat with electrical systems (and all the other systems) unless you have so much money that you can just hire the yard to chase down every single little problem that arises!

It's hard to make sense of what you say, and it's hard to believe that Beneteau would leave you with this puzzling situation. When you say "switches", do you mean that you have 2 individual switches on the panel that are mechanically linked so that when you throw one, both are thrown? Or did you intend to mean that there is only one switch on the panel that turns on both the water pump and the bilge pump when the switch is thrown? How is this labeled? Everything could be clarified with pictures.

You have to trace the wires from the back of the panel. I've never seen a bilge pump wired to the same breaker/switch as the water pump or any other devise. I've always seen the bilge pump on its own switch so that you can manually turn it on without energizing something else. Often, the bilge is on a double-throw switch so that you can switch it to either manual on or automatic (or simply off). Another configuration that is common is to have the bilge on a single throw breaker/switch on the panel for manual on and the float switch is hard-wired to the battery so it is always ready to turn on by auto-float. What is your bilge pump? Is it a combo pump with the auto function built in or is it a separate pump and float switch?

For anybody to really help, you have to be more descriptive in a clear manner. Pictures usually make a big difference!

 

[Calif. Ted]

There is a circuit breaker for the bilge pump on the electrical panel so make sure that is "on" before replacing float switch. I replaced a perfectly good float switch reported as inoperative BEFORE checking the breaker once. See page 45 of your owners manual.
https://beneteau.sailboatowners.com/images/kb/pdf/1266.pdf

 

[crownjewel]

Here are some photos.
There is a switch for the bilge pump on the panel. Amazingly, the boat did not come with a float switch in the bilge. I had one installed when I bought the boat used.
The float switch does work now. But it activates both the bilge and fresh water pumps (right and left respectively in the photo)
The switch on the panel for the fresh water pump also activates both pumps.
The wires for both pumps must be connected somewhere and need to be traced.

 

[Davidasailor26]

The wires for both pumps must be connected somewhere and need to be traced.

I think you’ve got it there. Not too many shortcuts to that. You could try disconnecting each end, looking at where all the wires run, and testing resistance with a multimeter. But it’ll definitely take some detective work.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

It is puzzling! It looks like you have disconnected the lead to your water pump, correct? So you do have separate switches and I don't see any obvious cross-connection at the breakers. It would be extremely strange if they were connected together somewhere downstream but that seems to be how it is behaving. I'm questioning if the breakers back-feed each other somehow. If you were testing it with that lead disconnected at the water pump breaker, I don't see how you can turn them on with the water pump switch. My guess is there is something back=feeding the breakers. After you have traced the wires, I think I would pull that water pump breaker out (or the bilge breaker). I would also rig a continuity test.

 

[heritage]

The label on the pump that you refer to as a bilge pump says that it is a shower drain pump. Does the pump's input hose begin at the bottom of the shower pan sump?

 

[Scott T-Bird]

The label on the pump that you refer to as a bilge pump says that it is a shower drain pump. Does the pump's input hose begin at the bottom of the shower pan sump?

Huh ... I didn't interpret the shower pump as being mistaken for the bilge pump ... and that's a good question! But that doesn't explain the bilge pump labelling on the panel and the cross-connection between those 2 breakers. The water pump and shower pump can easily be on the same breaker (mine is) but there has to be a downstream on-off switch, most likely in the head somewhere on a cabinet.

 

[Stu Jackson]

These photos seem to prove that pictures of wiring without a wiring diagram are essentially useless.

 

[Calif. Ted]

It is both bilge and shower pump with a wye valve under head sink to switch between the two according to owners manual, seems hazardous to have a wye valve on the bilge pump, but that's what it says.

 

[crownjewel]

It is indeed both a bilge and shower drain pump with a 3 way Y valve. It does seem hazardous but I never have the valve in the shower drain position, always bilge drain. Then again, it's also hazardous that there was no float switch when the boat was new.
I did disconnect the lead to each pump separately to test the other one. Each lead seems to control both pumps.

 

[FastOlson]

Thanks for the diagram. Interesting and now I appreciate how the the factory installed two separate 12 volt bilge pump systems in our boat, one for the main bilge and another for another part of the bilge adjacent to the shower. The effect is that both separately remove water from the bilges. Our boat also has a high capacity manual pump operated from the helm position.

 

[twalker H260]

From the manual it looks like there should be a separate shower switch - likely located in the head - that looks like it might ensure that the bilge and fresh water pump are activated if it is turned on. See if you can locate it and make sure it’s turned off.

Manual with wiring diagrams located here:

https://dicksimonyachts.com/Brochures/Beneteau/323/323 owners manual R00 hull 1-5_1.pdf

Might not be your year but looks similar based on your photos.

 

[Crusty Ol Salt]

Ok, first thing I would check is if and how the fresh water pump switch is working. In the picture below it does not appear to be wired properly. The red (+) appears not to be connected.I am trying to figure out how you are getting a power signal at the light bulb. It maybe just touching the post enough to work?



Now in this picture, I suspect this is where they are wired together. trace out the junction box and see if they are.



I am also thinking the bilge pump circuit should be always hot. That way when are pier side and everything is de-energized your bilges stay dry. Even when the DC panel is de-energized the bilge pump should be hot. You maybe should check that too.

Just some late night ponderings I hope that it helps.

 

[rgranger]

Thank you for the advice, gentlemen.
It was either Socrates or Monty Python who said "I do not know what I do not know".

LoL.... and a more modern analogy would be Rumsfeld's "known unknowns" and "unknown unknowns"

 

[crownjewel]

Mystery solved. Man do I feel embarrassed. It turns out that the switch in the head controls both the shower drain and the freshwater pump. A 5yo left it in the on position so when the breaker was turned on, both pumps came on.
Every boat has its quirks, and I'm still learning hers after more than 10 years.
Of course, the wiring diagram was key, as suggested above.
Thanks everyone who pitched in solving this so we can move on to more fun topics.
Next round of drinks are on me.