Damaged Rudder on Hunter 23 Winged Keel @rgranger @Crazy Dave Condon

[TheMastiff]

I have started working on the sailboat. Found the rudder, and it appears to be decently damaged. There is some fiberglass separation, and it appears to have been repaired poorly on one or two occasions. I spoke with Crazy Dave earlier about the best course of action going forward. The boat and rudder have been out of the water since the Summer of 2023, and the rudder was stored in a garage when I got it. I've tapped around the rudder to check for any water, and it appears there aren't any off-sounding thuds that I can hear.

Should I tackle this or lean towards a new one?

 

[CrispyCringle]

Its good that the parts have been out of the water a long time, so they are dry. It all looks fixable to me. Just depends on how much work you want to do. Replacements will probably be pricey.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

@rgranger can you help this fellow? Keep me in the loop
Crazy Dave

 

[TheMastiff]

Its good that the parts have been out of the water a long time, so they are dry. It all looks fixable to me. Just depends on how much work you want to do. Replacements will probably be pricey.

I'm good with doing the work if needed. What process would you propose?

 

[CrispyCringle]

I'm good with doing the work if needed. What process would you propose?

Your going to want to dig / grind out all the rot and loose stuff. Then fill appropriately with glass and thickened epoxy. The last layer should be glass cloth and epoxy so it wont crack open again. Build up, sand to shape. Repeat as required. Fair it down and repaint and no one will ever be able to tell it was repaired.

I would definitly grind off all of the old repair. It doesnt look good.

Also, dont skimp on the epoxy brand. It pays in the end. My personal fav brand is West System or TotalBoat.

Obviously a very brief overview. Read up and check vids of fiberglass repair. Its not hard, but there are some tools and techniques that are needed. The good news is even after buying any needed tools, you will still be ahead from if you bought new.

 

[shemandr]

I've looked at the pics and haven't really got a feel for the construction of the rudder. I suppose Hunter 23 owners already know.
In several pics it appears the rudder is wood, maybe with cloth sheathing. Some other pics show thicker sections with obvious cloth/tape applied. It really doesn't look like a typical foam filled/fiberglass skins construction. Any suggestion I would have about how to approach repair would depend on how it's constructed.
In any event, I would take the time and effort to create new rudders sections that have a foil shape. It's more work but winter is approaching( I don't know if Onancock has winter) and I think it would be a good project and you would end up with a high performing rudder. And build skills for other projects.
The process is to create templates made of plywood or other fairly rigid material from line drawings of the foil shape. The rudder seems to be pretty much the same width so you would only need two or maybe even one templates. You use the templates to add or subtract material to conform with the foil shape. You can add thickened epoxy for fairing compound and drag the template to shape the material. After it cures, shape, sand and repeat to fill voids and low areas. It sounds awful but you can get really anal about it pretty quickly.
I did this for my home built Marblehead skiff for the rudder and centerboard and the result was very satisfying.

 

[TheMastiff]

I've looked at the pics and haven't really got a feel for the construction of the rudder. I suppose Hunter 23 owners already know.
In several pics it appears the rudder is wood, maybe with cloth sheathing. Some other pics show thicker sections with obvious cloth/tape applied. It really doesn't look like a typical foam filled/fiberglass skins construction. Any suggestion I would have about how to approach repair would depend on how it's constructed.
In any event, I would take the time and effort to create new rudders sections that have a foil shape. It's more work but winter is approaching( I don't know if Onancock has winter) and I think it would be a good project and you would end up with a high performing rudder. And build skills for other projects.
The process is to create templates made of plywood or other fairly rigid material from line drawings of the foil shape. The rudder seems to be pretty much the same width so you would only need two or maybe even one templates. You use the templates to add or subtract material to conform with the foil shape. You can add thickened epoxy for fairing compound and drag the template to shape the material. After it cures, shape, sand and repeat to fill voids and low areas. It sounds awful but you can get really anal about it pretty quickly.
I did this for my home built Marblehead skiff for the rudder and centerboard and the result was very satisfying.

From what I've been told, the rudder is foam based. The replacement would be just that. I've heard of the foiled rudders before, that doesn't sound too bad process wise. Do you have any pics of the completed rudders out of water?

 

[TheMastiff]

Your going to want to dig / grind out all the rot and loose stuff. Then fill appropriately with glass and thickened epoxy. The last layer should be glass cloth and epoxy so it wont crack open again. Build up, sand to shape. Repeat as required. Fair it down and repaint and no one will ever be able to tell it was repaired.

I would definitly grind off all of the old repair. It doesnt look good.

Also, dont skimp on the epoxy brand. It pays in the end. My personal fav brand is West System or TotalBoat.

Obviously a very brief overview. Read up and check vids of fiberglass repair. Its not hard, but there are some tools and techniques that are needed. The good news is even after buying any needed tools, you will still be ahead from if you bought new.

I've seen good results from the West System. Is Total Boat less in quality than the West System, as I see their products are sometimes cheaper? I guess I will have to bring the dremel out for some spots. Is gelcoat or barrier paint suggested once shaped?

 

[CrispyCringle]

Ive used West System and TotalBoat. They are both good, but I like West Systems measuring pumps. Pretty easy to get right. Also, you can try working with a Dremel, but its far better suited to small hobby work. You have a lot of area and volume to cover. Id use a small orbital sander for finishing as well as a disc sander of some type to do some fast grinding away of material. I cant remember the standard size sanding wheels, but something in the 4-5" range. If you dont have those type tools it would be a good time to get them.

I personally wouldnt bother using gel coat. Its a pain to use. A good epoxy paint would be great. But frankly, I used a can of white Krylon on my H23.5 rudder when I rebuilt it and it lasted years. But that was in fresh water.

 

[TheMastiff]

Ive used West System and TotalBoat. They are both good, but I like West Systems measuring pumps. Pretty easy to get right. Also, you can try working with a Dremel, but its far better suited to small hobby work. You have a lot of area and volume to cover. Id use a small orbital sander for finishing as well as a disc sander of some type to do some fast grinding away of material. I cant remember the standard size sanding wheels, but something in the 4-5" range. If you dont have those type tools it would be a good time to get them.

I personally wouldnt bother using gel coat. Its a pain to use. A good epoxy paint would be great. But frankly, I used a can of white Krylon on my H23.5 rudder when I rebuilt it and it lasted years. But that was in fresh water.

Yeah, the West System pumps are super handy. I have all the sanders I need then. I've just heard some use Dremels for smaller sections. This boat will be in salt water.

 

[shemandr]

...Do you have any pics of the completed rudders out of water?

I doubt I do. It was likely prior to phones that take pictures or even digital photography. But if I do find some I'll pass them along.

 

[TheMastiff]

I doubt I do. It was likely prior to phones that take pictures or even digital photography. But if I do find some I'll pass them along.

Oh no worries. I appreciate the replies. I'll look around. Still debating on how to proceed. I'm going to look further into the foil rudder. Would this be a good method? How to Build Rudder Blades & Centerboards - Classic Moth Boat Association

 

[Billleathen]

I did the same repair you need to do on my H23 Rudder. Removed damaged glass. Rebuilt using west system products. Did a lot of fairing on both sides of the " face" of the rudder. I was surprised that there were areas of the rudder on both sides that were "dipped". I doubt that fairing really improved the performance, but I felt better that everything was level and smooth. FYI, they make a replacement rudder that is reported to have less resistance to flow and makes the boat sail faster. I elected to not spend the money for two reasons. I race the boat only for fun and don't mind losing to faster boats. Also, I'm not sure if the revised rudder would affect my PFR rating and if the race committee would accept the change. I'd rather race and loose than be told that my boat no longer qualifies to race. There are two or three race captains that are very competitive. Since I didn't want to spend the extra money, I didn't pursue the question with the race committee. I have the only H23 in the club and race against Oday 23, Oday 25, and Precision 23. The precision guys are really competitive and raise their dagger boards on the downwind run. The downwind is where I fall behind in the races.