I purchase a new 153 genoa last year. (Neil Pryde). The cloth was a made by Challenge Sailcloth and is a 8.03 High Modulus weave...whatever that is. I am told that the basic sailcloth usually is made with lots of resin which eventually comes off through usage. Is this true? Once the resin is reduced the sail becomes softer and loses its shape. Can anyone speak about the lifespan of this type of cloth? Is it better to spend more on sails and get a better more durable sail? Nothing lasts forever, but are there better alternatives? thanks
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dacron sails
Ive seen alot of 20year old boats with 20 year old sails (in the north east)I feel that your sails last as long as you take care of them.I think you get more use on your head sail so they blowout faster.some days I sail on head sail alone down wind. but the sails dont set as well as they get older I think after 5 years on a 150% genny ,It wont sail like it did when new but most guys use them untill they start to come apart If you dont sail in 20kts plus wind the sails last longer my old 150 was looking bad so I would not push it much. after I bought my new sails I tryed to push my boat in a 20kt wind and they started to come apart. I sail on a lake and there is alot of tacking all day long so the sails get beet up fast when I bought my boat my sails looked great and they died in 4 years .I mite get a 120 for my RF and use it in the spring and fall and save my 150% for light summer winds. With FB main I think the 120% would work OK and there would be less reefing I could have bought two sets of sails for what i payed for mine I dont think the better sails would last twice as long Im thinking of geting a iner stay with a 90 or 100% jib for self tacking but Ive never seen one on aC30 TR and with a Good head sail I reef Ok the sails just take a beeting My sails where about 2500+- they came from NSSupply and I love them. John
Ive seen alot of 20year old boats with 20 year old sails (in the north east)I feel that your sails last as long as you take care of them.I think you get more use on your head sail so they blowout faster.some days I sail on head sail alone down wind. but the sails dont set as well as they get older I think after 5 years on a 150% genny ,It wont sail like it did when new but most guys use them untill they start to come apart If you dont sail in 20kts plus wind the sails last longer my old 150 was looking bad so I would not push it much. after I bought my new sails I tryed to push my boat in a 20kt wind and they started to come apart. I sail on a lake and there is alot of tacking all day long so the sails get beet up fast when I bought my boat my sails looked great and they died in 4 years .I mite get a 120 for my RF and use it in the spring and fall and save my 150% for light summer winds. With FB main I think the 120% would work OK and there would be less reefing I could have bought two sets of sails for what i payed for mine I dont think the better sails would last twice as long Im thinking of geting a iner stay with a 90 or 100% jib for self tacking but Ive never seen one on aC30 TR and with a Good head sail I reef Ok the sails just take a beeting My sails where about 2500+- they came from NSSupply and I love them. John
Fillers, LIfe, etc.
Actually the filler is there to prevent pressure leakage from the higher pressure side to the lower pressure side. Woven sails (those made from 'crimped' or twisted threads have a definite lifespan .... as EVERY time the threades become stressed/stretched the crimping/twisting makes a shorter fatter yarn ..... just like how your three stranded docklines get stiffer,fatter and shorter. When to buy a new sail...? If you have the precise measured dimensions of the original sails, and you compare the actual dimensions to the original, you will come to a point when the dimensions start to change noticeably .... thats usually when you need a new sail. If you have a sail that is constructed with a bolt-rope (not a luff tape) - one that has a three strand rope sewn into the luff inside a sleeve .... that will usually shrink first. However a boltrope can be 'eased' by yourself or a sailmaker (if you have the original dimensions) and somewhat restore at least the draft position back to where it belongs. As a boltrope shrinks, it takes more and more halyard tension to properly position the location of draft... and if you dont follow the shrinkage of the boltrope the draft will start to go aft and the draft will become extreme.... and the leech will start to 'hook to windward' - all this promotes weather helm and exagerated heeling while slowing down. Most folks rarely hoist a sail with sufficient halyard tension to equilibrate the original 'luff pre-loading' that the sailmaker puts in ..... usually 1" shortening of the boltrope for every ~10 ft. of luff length (ask your sailmaker) and you usually have to apply sufficient tension on the halyard to stretch the preload to is maximum (stretching out almost all the preload) at the maximum designed windrange for the sail. Luff taped sails are entirely different. UV is THE destroyer of sails., You can prolong useful life vs. UV by spraying on UV protectants .... especially on the seams so that the stitching stays intact longer.
Actually the filler is there to prevent pressure leakage from the higher pressure side to the lower pressure side. Woven sails (those made from 'crimped' or twisted threads have a definite lifespan .... as EVERY time the threades become stressed/stretched the crimping/twisting makes a shorter fatter yarn ..... just like how your three stranded docklines get stiffer,fatter and shorter. When to buy a new sail...? If you have the precise measured dimensions of the original sails, and you compare the actual dimensions to the original, you will come to a point when the dimensions start to change noticeably .... thats usually when you need a new sail. If you have a sail that is constructed with a bolt-rope (not a luff tape) - one that has a three strand rope sewn into the luff inside a sleeve .... that will usually shrink first. However a boltrope can be 'eased' by yourself or a sailmaker (if you have the original dimensions) and somewhat restore at least the draft position back to where it belongs. As a boltrope shrinks, it takes more and more halyard tension to properly position the location of draft... and if you dont follow the shrinkage of the boltrope the draft will start to go aft and the draft will become extreme.... and the leech will start to 'hook to windward' - all this promotes weather helm and exagerated heeling while slowing down. Most folks rarely hoist a sail with sufficient halyard tension to equilibrate the original 'luff pre-loading' that the sailmaker puts in ..... usually 1" shortening of the boltrope for every ~10 ft. of luff length (ask your sailmaker) and you usually have to apply sufficient tension on the halyard to stretch the preload to is maximum (stretching out almost all the preload) at the maximum designed windrange for the sail. Luff taped sails are entirely different. UV is THE destroyer of sails., You can prolong useful life vs. UV by spraying on UV protectants .... especially on the seams so that the stitching stays intact longer.
Still doin' 7's
Bob, I would have new sails by now but my 20 year olds are still working well. Saturdays' sunset sail on our O'28with 1100# of guests in the cockpit had us close reaching at 6.8 to 7 knots in 15 k on a close reach. She'll be 20 next month with the originals still pulling hard. PM
Bob, I would have new sails by now but my 20 year olds are still working well. Saturdays' sunset sail on our O'28with 1100# of guests in the cockpit had us close reaching at 6.8 to 7 knots in 15 k on a close reach. She'll be 20 next month with the originals still pulling hard. PM
Durability
The cloth in dacron sails, which is what it looks like you have, tends to last a long time. If you look up the actual type of plastic (polyester? polyethylene?) that it is on an EcoNazi website, you'll see that it probably takes 150 years to decompose naturally. What happens BEFORE it decomposes is that it stretches. Sailmakers don't want cloth to stretch, because then it loses the shape they (and you) want it to have. To keep the sail from stretching, they use special "high modulus" woven cloth, they arrange the panels of the sail so minimize the stretch factor, they use stronger (heavier) cloth than they might otherwise, and they use cloth that has been treated with a resin coating that "fixes" the threads of the fabric so they don't move - much like a hair stays immobile after it dries in your last coat of varnish. What happens is that the sail luffs, making cracks in the resin each time you tack, and the cloth stretches a little. The halyard gets pulled extra tight on a windy day, and the cloth stretches a little. You head off to a reach before the crew eases the sheet, so the sail's pulled in too tight and it stretches a little. The breeze picks up above what the sail was designed to handle, but the harbor's only 10 minutes away, so it stretches a little. The sail still "looks" fine; the cloth could be made into shirts that would last 50 years or more. It's still relatively clean, and it still pulls the boat. Sails made out of burlap would pull the boat too. People don't use burlap if they can avoid it because it stretches a lot and wears out too fast. (Woven plastic grain bags -- is it polyester? Hmmmm. -- are better than burlap because they don't stretch as much and last longer than burlap and many other natural-fiber cloths.) If you're racing, the stretch after pehaps two hard seasons in SFO Bay might be enough to have a noticeable effect on your results. A boat like yours but with new sails might beat you every time. If you're cruising, you probably won't notice that it takes you four minutes longer to get from A to B than it would have if you had new sails. And you probably wouldn't care. Until they start to chafe through, get worn out and frayed, they'll work. 20-year old dacron sails will still work. So would sheets of plywood. It's a question of what you want in the way of performance and how much you want to balance that with cost. and pu
The cloth in dacron sails, which is what it looks like you have, tends to last a long time. If you look up the actual type of plastic (polyester? polyethylene?) that it is on an EcoNazi website, you'll see that it probably takes 150 years to decompose naturally. What happens BEFORE it decomposes is that it stretches. Sailmakers don't want cloth to stretch, because then it loses the shape they (and you) want it to have. To keep the sail from stretching, they use special "high modulus" woven cloth, they arrange the panels of the sail so minimize the stretch factor, they use stronger (heavier) cloth than they might otherwise, and they use cloth that has been treated with a resin coating that "fixes" the threads of the fabric so they don't move - much like a hair stays immobile after it dries in your last coat of varnish. What happens is that the sail luffs, making cracks in the resin each time you tack, and the cloth stretches a little. The halyard gets pulled extra tight on a windy day, and the cloth stretches a little. You head off to a reach before the crew eases the sheet, so the sail's pulled in too tight and it stretches a little. The breeze picks up above what the sail was designed to handle, but the harbor's only 10 minutes away, so it stretches a little. The sail still "looks" fine; the cloth could be made into shirts that would last 50 years or more. It's still relatively clean, and it still pulls the boat. Sails made out of burlap would pull the boat too. People don't use burlap if they can avoid it because it stretches a lot and wears out too fast. (Woven plastic grain bags -- is it polyester? Hmmmm. -- are better than burlap because they don't stretch as much and last longer than burlap and many other natural-fiber cloths.) If you're racing, the stretch after pehaps two hard seasons in SFO Bay might be enough to have a noticeable effect on your results. A boat like yours but with new sails might beat you every time. If you're cruising, you probably won't notice that it takes you four minutes longer to get from A to B than it would have if you had new sails. And you probably wouldn't care. Until they start to chafe through, get worn out and frayed, they'll work. 20-year old dacron sails will still work. So would sheets of plywood. It's a question of what you want in the way of performance and how much you want to balance that with cost. and pu
Quality and value
One thing my mother always told me was that if you are looking for value, buy quality. So I often buy things that are more expensive than I really need. We shopped sails at the boat show and decided to buy a new 150 genoa and mainsail for our 20 year old Starwind 27. We bought dacron sails from North Sails and I was surprised that the salesman convinced me to buy a step down from their best dacron sail, even after I was obviously leaning toward their more expensive material. His reasoning was sound because we described the daysailing we do on our small lake, and if we decide to start coastal sailing in the future, it would be with another boat most likely. I appreciated his judgement and I also appreciated the personal service that we got when he had to climb aboard our snow covered boat to take measurements! I leaned towards North Sails primarily because of my long history of buying their windsurfing products. Bob, do you have buyers remorse over the sail that you purchased or are you thinking of buying a mainsail or another headsail? I would think that with conditions on San Fran Bay, it is more important to buy the best quality dacron sail that is available and replace them relatively often, especially if you sail a lot. My new sails are now ready, but the lake is not. I'm really anxious to try them out and see if I can notice a difference in the boats performance. Our old headsail is a 110 jib so I am excited about the increased area in the genoa. I'm hoping the salesman will spend an afternoon sailing with me so I can learn some things about sail trim. Should I expect that?
One thing my mother always told me was that if you are looking for value, buy quality. So I often buy things that are more expensive than I really need. We shopped sails at the boat show and decided to buy a new 150 genoa and mainsail for our 20 year old Starwind 27. We bought dacron sails from North Sails and I was surprised that the salesman convinced me to buy a step down from their best dacron sail, even after I was obviously leaning toward their more expensive material. His reasoning was sound because we described the daysailing we do on our small lake, and if we decide to start coastal sailing in the future, it would be with another boat most likely. I appreciated his judgement and I also appreciated the personal service that we got when he had to climb aboard our snow covered boat to take measurements! I leaned towards North Sails primarily because of my long history of buying their windsurfing products. Bob, do you have buyers remorse over the sail that you purchased or are you thinking of buying a mainsail or another headsail? I would think that with conditions on San Fran Bay, it is more important to buy the best quality dacron sail that is available and replace them relatively often, especially if you sail a lot. My new sails are now ready, but the lake is not. I'm really anxious to try them out and see if I can notice a difference in the boats performance. Our old headsail is a 110 jib so I am excited about the increased area in the genoa. I'm hoping the salesman will spend an afternoon sailing with me so I can learn some things about sail trim. Should I expect that?
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