Looks like I was paged earlier and missed one.... Mr Millard's question about turning a cutter into a sloop (archives, 9 April) is probably not as odd as some might think. But first let's remember that the H-37 was originally intended as a semi-retirement boat and that the smaller sails of the cutter rig are far easier to handle than a bigger jib. Also, as Mr Farnsworth acknowledges in a reply (12 April), the WHOLE boat was designed as a cutter and it is not simply a matter of having a new sail cut and snipping out a piece of wire. I am not exaggerating when I compare that to cutting a few rafters out of a roof or hacking a few pieces of steel out of a bridge. Removing the inner forestay (it is NOT, Mr Millard, called the 'cutter stay') DOES impose new stress patterns on the remaining rigging. There will be other modifications, such as the removal or relocation of lower aft shrouds and/or running backstays rendered necessary, and the whole rig will have to be retuned and allowed to 'settle' as the mast assumes a new bend or strain. Moreover you will now have parted with the best saving grace of a cutterÐ that neat little staysail (NEVER properly referred to as a 'cutter sail') under which alone you can probably sail the boat in bad weather. Its area is low and longitudinally close to the designed centre of effort, as opposed to being out on the forward end of the J like a roller-furling jib brought down to a small triangle, exactly where you do NOT want sail area in a blow. If ever there were a reason to ADD a 'baby stay' for sail-flying purposes (though a so-called 'baby stay' NEVER flies a sail) it would be to set a storm jib close to the mast where it belongs. Cutting out the cutter rig eliminates this asset. However Mr Millard's question about going to a larger jib (outer headsail), especially when fitted with roller reefing, is not dumb at all. The problem in going to a 140 or something with this rig is that when fully set, the centre of effort moves unduly forward and imposes lee helm on the boat-- thus, in short, someone will be bitching that 'those Cherubini Hunters can't point' again! The only other real problem is that you'll have to train yourself to handle that increased sail area without the white knuckles-- off the wind and downwind you will have a real drag-racer! I tend to like having a lot of sail on a boat for the philosophy that you can always reduce sail in a blow but can rarely add more when you need it. However there are drawbacks to constantly sailing round with a third of your jib rolled up in a big tampon-like bulge on the headstay. My suggestion is to keep the high-cut 'yankee' jib (although you could enlarge it to about 125% of the J) and use a loose-footed stays'l cut to about 110% of the inner J, a very pretty set-up with good advantages both on and off the wind. We had this rig on our Cherubini 44 cutter and though it requires coming about with two jibs it is otherwise is no trouble at all. Here roller furling on the outer one or both would help even in coming about. A club-footed jib, though easy, has a trade-off in sail trim and consequently speed, and I assure you my dad would have preferred the loose-footed rig if Hunter had let him keep it. (I apologise for bringing up this topic back from the dead especially if anyone was already done with it!) J Cherubini II Cherubini Art & Nautical Design Org. JComet@aol.com
Cutter vs Sloop
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Hunter's recommendations
By the way, Mr Farnsworth (9 April) also made the following comment: 'I'm guessing that the reason Hunter wouldn't give you recommendations for [altering the rig] is because it will result in poor performance. You might want to consider the fact that the marine architects who designed your boat know what they're talking about.' I contend that he is right on the second point but wrong on the first. The most likely reasons Hunter would not provide recommendations as to turning an H-37C into a sloop rig are; 1. They don't want to be bothered with old boats. This is borne out by others' experiences as reported to me, not my own as I have no contact with them now. In my blunt opinion Hunter ought to change policy on this (if indeed policy exists). Rather than diss old-boat owners they should be thinking that used boat ownership is a good 'back door' into NEW boat ownership. A relationship built with a company builds consumer loyalty. worse, 2. They don't want the legal hassle. They did not actually design the boat and the designer (my dad) is gone, so who would be there to accept the responsibility for modifications to a past model? They have no financial incentive, only potential liability, in making such recommendations. and, sadly, 3. They probably don't know what to tell you. As far as I know there is no one on the so-called 'Hunter Design Team' who ever worked with my dad directly on the Generation 1 Hunter boats. Possibly many of them have never even seen or sailed a real H-37 C enough to know how it compares to new boats. Certainly it is not something they want to focus on now. Sorry is this is the bad tidings. I respect what Hunter has done even after my dad left-- they are by far the leader and deserve to be-- but I can't agree with everything they do. Perhaps I only recall too much of when it was all fresh and new and fun. [sigh] JC
By the way, Mr Farnsworth (9 April) also made the following comment: 'I'm guessing that the reason Hunter wouldn't give you recommendations for [altering the rig] is because it will result in poor performance. You might want to consider the fact that the marine architects who designed your boat know what they're talking about.' I contend that he is right on the second point but wrong on the first. The most likely reasons Hunter would not provide recommendations as to turning an H-37C into a sloop rig are; 1. They don't want to be bothered with old boats. This is borne out by others' experiences as reported to me, not my own as I have no contact with them now. In my blunt opinion Hunter ought to change policy on this (if indeed policy exists). Rather than diss old-boat owners they should be thinking that used boat ownership is a good 'back door' into NEW boat ownership. A relationship built with a company builds consumer loyalty. worse, 2. They don't want the legal hassle. They did not actually design the boat and the designer (my dad) is gone, so who would be there to accept the responsibility for modifications to a past model? They have no financial incentive, only potential liability, in making such recommendations. and, sadly, 3. They probably don't know what to tell you. As far as I know there is no one on the so-called 'Hunter Design Team' who ever worked with my dad directly on the Generation 1 Hunter boats. Possibly many of them have never even seen or sailed a real H-37 C enough to know how it compares to new boats. Certainly it is not something they want to focus on now. Sorry is this is the bad tidings. I respect what Hunter has done even after my dad left-- they are by far the leader and deserve to be-- but I can't agree with everything they do. Perhaps I only recall too much of when it was all fresh and new and fun. [sigh] JC
A THIRD OPTION
your 37 is intended to be a self tending cutter, with a club foot, another option is the SLUTTER rig, with your head stay sail or jib or genny, on a ruller furl sys., a quick release mechanism attached to your INNer forestay, the club or jib boom removed, a set of tracks springloaded blocks on cars mounted on your cabin top, for the inner forestay sheets, both sails can fly at the same time OR, release the inner forestay walk it back and secure it with the bagged sail to the aft lower shroud, and fly the genny only, OR roll up the genny an fly the inner forestay with a reefed main.
your 37 is intended to be a self tending cutter, with a club foot, another option is the SLUTTER rig, with your head stay sail or jib or genny, on a ruller furl sys., a quick release mechanism attached to your INNer forestay, the club or jib boom removed, a set of tracks springloaded blocks on cars mounted on your cabin top, for the inner forestay sheets, both sails can fly at the same time OR, release the inner forestay walk it back and secure it with the bagged sail to the aft lower shroud, and fly the genny only, OR roll up the genny an fly the inner forestay with a reefed main.
Tampon-like bulge!?
This is a new term for me but I have only had the cutter for three years. For that reason alone I would not want a large jib.
This is a new term for me but I have only had the cutter for three years. For that reason alone I would not want a large jib.
125 Jenny on a cutter...a pain
I have mutely followed much of the discussion about changing the 37c to a sloop and/or adding a larger jib. Now let me add my two-bits worth. When I bought my cutter 5 years ago it had the factory sized sails and rig on it. It also had (in a sail bag) a 125 jenny with nice "seagull in a sun" graphic on it. Last year I decided to give it a try and put it on. Looks nice when flying but... Problem. The roller furling rig is not heavy enough for it nor is it big enough to furl the sail. Solution. Go up on the foredeck and hand roll it in after reaching the end of the furling line or spring for a new roller furling system that is bigger (and $$$) and will handle all the sail. Eventually as retirement nears I intend to do this anyway. Problem. When tacking the sheets hang up on the inner forestay, catch on any pins sticking out, or, unless timed precisley, the sail wraps around the staysail. Solution. Go up on the foredeck and unsnag, usually involving a lot of blue air, smashed fingers, rope burns, flogging by sail or sheets, and hurt pride. Working on timing better? Tough for a casual weekend sailor that prefers to leave a set alone. This is probably my biggest heartburn with the rig. Problem. With the sail out the boat digs in heel gets up around 25-30 and unless fiddled with constantly the sail becomes unhappy in the slightest change in the wind. Solution. Live with live at 25-30 and put up with crew complaints and fiddle with the trim. Remember this is supposed to be fun. My overall solution is to go back to the original rig. Who am I to second guess a Mr. Cherubini's design? I think that the original design is a fine one and the boat handled better and with just as much speed before. All of the praise/advantages of having inner sail, with or without the clubfoot, to me is the main attraction of the boat. Bottom line is the jenny is up for grabs. Make an offer, pay shipping, and it is yours. Now about a crusing spinnaker...
I have mutely followed much of the discussion about changing the 37c to a sloop and/or adding a larger jib. Now let me add my two-bits worth. When I bought my cutter 5 years ago it had the factory sized sails and rig on it. It also had (in a sail bag) a 125 jenny with nice "seagull in a sun" graphic on it. Last year I decided to give it a try and put it on. Looks nice when flying but... Problem. The roller furling rig is not heavy enough for it nor is it big enough to furl the sail. Solution. Go up on the foredeck and hand roll it in after reaching the end of the furling line or spring for a new roller furling system that is bigger (and $$$) and will handle all the sail. Eventually as retirement nears I intend to do this anyway. Problem. When tacking the sheets hang up on the inner forestay, catch on any pins sticking out, or, unless timed precisley, the sail wraps around the staysail. Solution. Go up on the foredeck and unsnag, usually involving a lot of blue air, smashed fingers, rope burns, flogging by sail or sheets, and hurt pride. Working on timing better? Tough for a casual weekend sailor that prefers to leave a set alone. This is probably my biggest heartburn with the rig. Problem. With the sail out the boat digs in heel gets up around 25-30 and unless fiddled with constantly the sail becomes unhappy in the slightest change in the wind. Solution. Live with live at 25-30 and put up with crew complaints and fiddle with the trim. Remember this is supposed to be fun. My overall solution is to go back to the original rig. Who am I to second guess a Mr. Cherubini's design? I think that the original design is a fine one and the boat handled better and with just as much speed before. All of the praise/advantages of having inner sail, with or without the clubfoot, to me is the main attraction of the boat. Bottom line is the jenny is up for grabs. Make an offer, pay shipping, and it is yours. Now about a crusing spinnaker...
Go fly a kite.
Many have said this on previous discussions about cutters. Leave the rig alone. To go fast downwind buy and fly a kite. Or on my budget just go half-fast.
Many have said this on previous discussions about cutters. Leave the rig alone. To go fast downwind buy and fly a kite. Or on my budget just go half-fast.
Re: slutter
Well now that I HAVE dragged up this dead horse.... The hands-down trouble with what Mr Manalili calls a 'slutter' rig (i.e., with removable inner forestay) is that structurally it is neither a true cutter or a true sloop. I know many will look upon this from a utility standpoint but I'm talking in terms of tuning the rig. I may be wrong but I don't know any cutters with removable headstays that don't come complete with running backstays, hydraulic mast-benders, Bergstrom-type rigs or what have you. There is just no structurally prudent way of simply removing a major piece of rigging on a whim. When it's in, the stay puts one pull on the spar (remember it is flying canvas), and when it's not there the spar is stressed differently. I'm sorry but I can't ever advocate that being done on a significantly-sized boat by a user (as opposed to a designer). If the stay is there, there's a reason. Leave it alone. JC
Well now that I HAVE dragged up this dead horse.... The hands-down trouble with what Mr Manalili calls a 'slutter' rig (i.e., with removable inner forestay) is that structurally it is neither a true cutter or a true sloop. I know many will look upon this from a utility standpoint but I'm talking in terms of tuning the rig. I may be wrong but I don't know any cutters with removable headstays that don't come complete with running backstays, hydraulic mast-benders, Bergstrom-type rigs or what have you. There is just no structurally prudent way of simply removing a major piece of rigging on a whim. When it's in, the stay puts one pull on the spar (remember it is flying canvas), and when it's not there the spar is stressed differently. I'm sorry but I can't ever advocate that being done on a significantly-sized boat by a user (as opposed to a designer). If the stay is there, there's a reason. Leave it alone. JC
The cutter's lethargy in going round.
The problems Frank from the Solomons makes about the outer headsail's sheets catching up on the inner forestay whilst going round are indeed potential hassles. I can't remember if we had this problem on our C-44 but if we did I can't think it was memorable. We had no roller reefing and straddled the bowsprit to bring in the Yankee (straight of out Two Years Before The Mast or something!). But I would not be thwarted by a 125 or even something bigger on either stay (people have sailed double-headsail rigs with two 170s-- vis, Robin Lee Graham, ALONE). It may happen that especially in light air an outer jib will need some persuasion to go round. But that's going to happen to all of us, and at least with a split foretriangle you have a chance of one of them drawing early enough to keep you out of irons. On our boat the 115 Yankee was usually sheeted home first whilst the 'mini-110' staysail (which I have said before was NOT self-tending) was just snubbed into the self-tailer 'for a minute', but that was still the one which managed to draw first and save the day. For my money it is the best sail on the boat and the only reason why I'd consider a single-masted rig rather than a ketch or yawl. If you've got big fat bowlines where the sheets meet the clew (like my dad had on Antigone because he couldn't splice) then of course they are going to hang up on the stay. And if furling is retarded by a weak furling system then that's hardly a problem of the rig or sail set-up. -duhhh. [wink] I know Frank knows his chops but for many others I would advocate practice rather than altering the rig. Just keep messing with it-- there is a system for everything if you can calmly figure it out. [wink] JC
The problems Frank from the Solomons makes about the outer headsail's sheets catching up on the inner forestay whilst going round are indeed potential hassles. I can't remember if we had this problem on our C-44 but if we did I can't think it was memorable. We had no roller reefing and straddled the bowsprit to bring in the Yankee (straight of out Two Years Before The Mast or something!). But I would not be thwarted by a 125 or even something bigger on either stay (people have sailed double-headsail rigs with two 170s-- vis, Robin Lee Graham, ALONE). It may happen that especially in light air an outer jib will need some persuasion to go round. But that's going to happen to all of us, and at least with a split foretriangle you have a chance of one of them drawing early enough to keep you out of irons. On our boat the 115 Yankee was usually sheeted home first whilst the 'mini-110' staysail (which I have said before was NOT self-tending) was just snubbed into the self-tailer 'for a minute', but that was still the one which managed to draw first and save the day. For my money it is the best sail on the boat and the only reason why I'd consider a single-masted rig rather than a ketch or yawl. If you've got big fat bowlines where the sheets meet the clew (like my dad had on Antigone because he couldn't splice) then of course they are going to hang up on the stay. And if furling is retarded by a weak furling system then that's hardly a problem of the rig or sail set-up. -duhhh. [wink] I know Frank knows his chops but for many others I would advocate practice rather than altering the rig. Just keep messing with it-- there is a system for everything if you can calmly figure it out. [wink] JC
Replacing 37C roller furler
My '81 37C has a CDI (Cruising Design) Reefer model roller furler for the Yankee headsail. The extrusions are a little tired looking and, at a minimum, should be replaced -- though the unit has performed well and continues to do so. I don't know its age. Question: What's a good replacement for this unit? And, if I can persuade CDI to answer email (so far they're mum) and tell me if they've got replacement parts in stock to substitute for worn parts, why not do that? Thanks for your thoughts.
My '81 37C has a CDI (Cruising Design) Reefer model roller furler for the Yankee headsail. The extrusions are a little tired looking and, at a minimum, should be replaced -- though the unit has performed well and continues to do so. I don't know its age. Question: What's a good replacement for this unit? And, if I can persuade CDI to answer email (so far they're mum) and tell me if they've got replacement parts in stock to substitute for worn parts, why not do that? Thanks for your thoughts.
Profurl
I had similar problem with my 1980 H37c. By the time I got pricing from CDI, it made a lot more sense to replace the whole unit. I decided on Profurl (that's certainly not the only good choice) and after one season it's been great.
I had similar problem with my 1980 H37c. By the time I got pricing from CDI, it made a lot more sense to replace the whole unit. I decided on Profurl (that's certainly not the only good choice) and after one season it's been great.
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