Cutter rigs

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higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,704
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
I bought a Nassau 34, a medium displacement (14250#), offshore cruiser three season ago. I moved her 1200 miles the second season on a trip that was mostly under power so this season I was really getting to know her sailing characteristics. I could never get the main to set right. Most sail lofts did not even want to discuss it with me and finally I found a guy who was willing to cut it to my specs, even though the sail measured out to factory specs. Bottom line: The main sets perfect now. The PO had brand new UK sails on the boat - all three. Now that I have the main problems solved I am turning to the jib. It is big and low cut - probably a 150 or more. The boat is designed to fly a yankee which is a high cut clew problably around 100%. Upwind, no matter where I move the genoa car, I cannot get the 150 to sheet in closer than a couple of feet off the spreader. The foot always tightens up stopping me from sheeting in farther. I have had several club members out and no one can get the big sail to sheet close to the spreaders. It needs to be recut, but I find sailmakers will not take me seriously when I discuss this them. In the meantime, I find the boat sails better if I furl the big jib to about 110 and use the staysail along with it. No surprise to me as that is closer to how the boat was designed to sail. Upwind, the staysail is useless and I am a little underpowered with the furled head sail azt 110. Problem with unfurling the headsail to 150 is that when I tack, that huge sail has to come across between the staysail and the forestay - a space of about 24". It takes forever to get the sail through this limited space and then requires an ungodly amount of winch cranking to get it in since once it finally comes through it is full of air. I guess I am willing to give up some upwind performance for a headsail that will set well and tack reasonably quickly. Because most sailmakers won't talk to me around here, my problem is what to do with this brand new huge genny. Recut it to my dimensions - I really am not qualified to do that - buy a new sail- what are your suggestions?
 
S

Scott

A few thoughts for you, Higgs ....

You always sound like you have some pretty good knowledge and that you know what you want. Why won't the fellow who cut your main cut your genny the way you suggest? I would first do that and find out if you can be satisfied. If that fails, then you would be thinking about a new genny, built to the size and cut that is best suited to you, and you would have a choice of sail makers who are willing to work it out with you. As for setting your genny the way you would like for close haul, could your problem be more related to the position of the fairlead tracks? I know mine is positioned right along the rail underneath the safety lines and it causes some problems. It seems like I could point better if I had an inboard track (but I don't plan on installing one). One of the tricks I use to ease the nuisance of cranking in a large genny is to simply point up wind to luff briefly and set the sheet before bearing off and fine tuning. I do this for a different reason but it could work for you after you have worked the genny thru the slot and then it is too filled with air to make sheeting easy work. (I often have the problem that the genny fills with air after getting around the mast and then the foot is hung-up outside the lifelines when I'm trying to sheet in - I have 2 choices, annoy the crew by calling for somebody to jump forward and correct it, or maneuver the boat upwind briefly to get the sail to luff inside the lines) It is a slow awkward maneuver and you have to be careful not to backwind the genny to the point of pushing your bow too far the wrong way, but it keeps peace on deck when it is done without disturbing the crew! ;)
 
Jun 12, 2004
1,181
Allied Mistress 39 Ketch Kemah,Tx.
Wait......

I wouldnt do anything until I had a sailmaker tell me what I needed. Too bad you cant get anyone to take you serious. Maybe they saw your posts on here....just kidding. Anyway, the only thing I could suggest is to keep searching for other Nassau 34 owners. maybe you will find one that used a sailmaker recently and then you can get in touch. Try searching the web and local marinas in your area for Nassau 34 owners and good luck. Tony B
 
Jan 26, 2007
308
Norsea 27 Cleveland
Barberhaul

You could test Scott's theory by setting up a barberhaul. As for tacking, RichH suggests in several archived threads setting up a tricing line to the bow to facilitate getting the big sail around quickly. It sounds like a simple enough solution, though I can't speak from experience as to whether it works or not.
 
May 5, 2006
1,140
Knutson K-35 Yawl Bellingham
higgs, can ya unhook the baby stay for upwind?

I've seen some cutters set up with a quick disconnect just for that reason.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Cutters are VERY different

Sailmakers serve primarily sloop racing as their primary customers Riggers primarily serve sloop racing as their primary customers Cutters simply aren't raced and probably thats the reason for the lack of expertise. VERY little has been written (as least written that makes 'sense') on the sail interaction of 'cutters'. definitions for this discussion: Headstay ... stay that the jib/genoa is attached Forestay .... stay that the staysail (forestaysail) is attached. With respect to cutters, probably the prime item of 'difficulty' which adds to much of the confusion is the headstay/forestay combination and only one backstay. This 'interplay' of forestay/headstay tensions will drive you absolutely nuts especially when flying any headsail larger than a yankee and the resultant genoa SHAPE anomalies that WILL occur. The shape of a headsail (any boat) is dependent on the tension of the foil/stay its attached to. On cutters and because of the TWO headstays, unless the genoa is especially cut at the luff to match the headstay sag you will/may as youve found wind up with some severe shape issues. As stated, unless the sailmaker is VERY familiar with cutters and this critical interplay of tensions with 'double headstays' you can easily get into shaping problems. If you are flying both genoa and staysail it will be impossible to ascertain if the rig tension is incorrect or the cut of the new sail is incorrect. Reduce the rig back to a 'sloop' and do your assay from there..... 1. Totally slack or remove the forestay/staysail and go totally slack or unload on the intermediate stays if you have them. 2. set the rig up like you were sailing a sloop (slack forestay and slack intermediates).... 12-15% headstay, shroud tension, then 20-25%+ backstay tension. (mast prebend, etc. if you know how). With the forestay (forestaysail) totally relaxed, Staysail NOT flying/removed, see if this doesnt RADICALLY change the shape of the genoa, radically improve performance, etc. Here's where Im going with this: That genoa was probably cut by a sailmaker who only (rightly perhaps) knows sloops and doesnt know that on cutters, the headstay 'unloads' when the staysail tensions the forestay OR that if flown without a staysail but with the forestay still loaded the headstay will have only 50% of normal tension in it ........ and the headstay will DRASTICALLY fall off to leeward, have a GREAT curve at the luff, the leech of the GENOA will tighten, the foot will tighten, the midcord of the saill will be EXCEPTIONALLY FULL (cant touch the spreader but the sail is 'fully powered up') ..... draft will go aft in the sail, the boat will heel over, the boat wont point worth a damn and will be a slow pig .... plus you may feel a lot of helm pressure as the boat skids off to leeward, thinking that you have 'weather-helm' but really dont. Then for correction of the 'weather-helm' you might even rake the mast farther aft (a bad thing to do) and that will mmake the effect even worse, etc. When the extreme headstay sag develops, the tigher you grind the genoa winch the WORSE the genoa shape becomes. Off the shelf sails for sloops are normally designed to be applied to (assumed) rigging tension at ~15% of ultimate breaking strength tension .... on a cutter with two 'headstays' and the backstay running at 15% each headstay will only be a 7.5% tension !!! ..... and that 7.5% tension is going to cause severe luff sag in a headsail and will result in some 'gawd-awful' sail shape. The genoa shape and set REALLY depends on rig tension. The genoa performance depends on how well you set/shape the staysail flying underneath the genoa, especially on a beat. How I set up my cutter ... to avoid adverse headstay slack/sag when flying large genoas 1. All stays ..... side, lower shrouds including forestay/backstay set at 12-15%, mast prebend set at 3/4" forward bow for single spreader mast. Then go sail the boat as a sloop and make sure that what you tensioned is keeping the rig in column, etc. 2. Rig the forestay with soft ONLY tension (~5%) .... when sailing with a staysail I want most of the tension to be born by the LUFF (boltrope) of the staysl (if the staysail is on a furler ... youll jam the furler with such high halyard tensions) , I want the staysail halyard to be bar tight so as to produce a very rounded shape to the luff entry of the staysail .... improves upwind performance of both the mainsail (staysail shape reduces mast turbulence, etc.) and aerodynamically 'bootstraps' the genoa. THEN either adjust the intermediate shrouds to be equal in tension to balance the resultant load of forestay AND staysail luff as caused by the luff tension i n the staysail .... or apply tension from the running backstays to support the tension in the forestay/staysail-luff. If you see additional 'curve' develop on the luff of the ***genoa at this time*** meaning that the staysail tension is UNLOADING the headstay tension .... 1. reduce winch tension in the genoa and increase genoa halyard tension ... AND then use a BARBER HAULER and bring the clew in closer to the boat's centerline .... just barberhaul while watching the speedo, haul in until the speed (VMG actually, to be more precise) drops then open an inch or two. This kind of discussion is quite hard to do as there are many thing going on simultaneously ....; the summary is: a staysail will unload the tension in an adjacent headstay and that will cause excessive luff sag in the headsail (jib or genoa). Excess luff sag will cause extreme draft, draft aft, will falsely make the helm feel like it has weather-helm. The 'easy solution' is to sail with your normal headstay/forestay/backstay tensions ... measure the ACTUAL headstay sag as found when sailing in ~15kts .... and get the sailmaker recut the genoa properly to this leading edge shape .... and NOT the typical shape as if the boat was just a sloop !!!!!!! .... or correct the tensions (if you can live with such HIGH backstay tensions) as described above to MATCH the shape of the luff/leading edge of the sail that sailmaker cut .... ask your sailmaker how much "luff hollow" he/she cut into the sail .... then simply MATCH the actual sag with what 'he/she' cut. If your sailmaker did not go out sailing with you in ~15kts and observed the ACTUAL headstay sag.... your new genoa was probably cut for a sloop!!!!! Since cutters dont race and 95% of sailmakers expertise is in sloops ... this is a very innocent and usual outcome when cutting a large genoa for a cutter. On a hard beat and when flying a staysail under a genoa ... set HARD staysl halyard tension to make the staysail luff become 'rounded', max draft position will be well forward and with a FLAT leech/exit shape, ******dont expect the staysail to be 'drawing'********* .... but expect the boats speed to INCREASE and the boat be able to point MUCH higher. Its all aerodynamics and the human eyeball simply cant see 'aerodynamics' and the human brain cannot intuitively 'figure out' whats going on with aerodynamics!!!!!!! (Especiallly since most USA highschool science classes, 'vogue' sailing books, have been offering WRONG info on how sails work since the time of the Wright Brothers .... even the Wright Brothers knew different than the bad info being offered in highschool 'science' classes and sailing books.) :)
 

higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,704
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
Staysail disconnect

Staysail is on a furler so unhooking it is not practical. One friend suggested just getting rid of the staysail all together and sail the boat as a sloop. I appreciate the comments and it gives me food for thought.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
What scott says is correct ... I like what he says

Quote ----"One of the tricks I use to ease the nuisance of cranking in a large genny is to simply point up wind to luff briefly and set the sheet before bearing off and fine tuning. I do this for a different reason but it could work for you after you have worked the genny thru the slot and then it is too filled with air to make sheeting easy work. (I often have the problem that the genny fills with air after getting around the mast and then the foot is hung-up outside the lifelines when I'm trying to sheet in - I have 2 choices, annoy the crew by calling for somebody to jump forward and correct it, or maneuver the boat upwind briefly to get the sail to luff inside the lines) It is a slow awkward maneuver and you have to be careful not to backwind the genny to the point of pushing your bow too far the wrong way, but it keeps peace on deck when it is done without disturbing the crew! " Its soooooo easy to overtension / overtighten a large genoa with a winch and that overtensioning causes EXCESS forestay sag, etc. If you find that you're always needing to 'grind the winches' to get that large genoa 'in-tight' all the time ... consider to run barber haulers or add a genoa track thats closer in to the boats centerline ... and then winch in ONLY as tight as needed but not sooooo tight as to adversely affect adverse headstay sag !!!!!!!!! What Scott is doing is giving max. tension to the sail BEFORE the sail gets to be maximum windloaded thus he's not distorting the shape by too aggressive tension from the winches.
 
Aug 21, 2006
203
Pearson 367 Alexandria, VA
My learning Curve w/ a Cutter rig

My first comment is that everything I say is true of Sea Dragon and may not apply to your boat. But she is a cutter. First Sea Dragon was designed to carry 95% high cut headsail and the staysail. When time came to replace the headsail, I spoke with our sailmaker about a larger headsail. After a little time with him he came to the conclusion that anything larger than 110 would not work well on our boat… So 110 it is. Second, setting the staysail on our boat works wonders going to wind… And does not offer much for off the wind sailing… Maybe it is comment on my lack of skill. I am still learning. Here is what I have learned. Setting the staysail and adjusting the slot will allow me to pick up another 5 or so degrees to wind.... And gain speed. Setting the staysail and adjusting the slot between the staysail & headsail (letting out on the headsail) allows the boat to point higher without adding heal to the boat... Giving Sea Dragon better pointing ability and making it more comfortable when sailing to wind (if sail to wind can be considered comfortable). Sea Dragon’s staysail is on roller furler so the thought of installing a removable stay is out of the question for me. I have only experienced a problem with the headsail passing through the slot when sailing down wind in very light winds, say less than 4 knots. Other wise the 110 moves nicely through the slot. Important Note: long before, I reach this point I have drug out the cruising chute. Finally, my family does not like aggressive sailing (heel), so once the winds approach 20 knots I will furl the headsail and sail on a full main & staysail. Then as the winds approach 25 knots I will begin reefing the main. With that said, our boat sails at its best above (larger numbers) 40 or 45 degrees. With a displacement of almost 18,000 lbs she is happiest in winds greater than 12 knots... And at 20 knots, when others are searching for cover, we are still enjoying a nice sail, serving food..... On the down side, in 5 knots winds we are more like a buoy than sailboat. Below is information on Sea Dragon’s current rigging configuration. http://www.sailingseadragon.com/Rigging.htm In the end, I would suggest that the designer had pretty good idea of what he wanted from the sail plan and I would offer that you maybe happier with a smaller headsail. I know several owners of boats like Sea Dragon that have tried larger 140-150 head sails only to return to 95-110. Good luck and don’t give up on the cutter rig. Garner
 
Aug 21, 2006
203
Pearson 367 Alexandria, VA
Thank You RichH

Rich, I just re-reread (3rd read) your earlier post.... As always I have learned something new... It will take a few hours or days for it all to sink into my old head. But you have answered several questions I have had about headstay sag and why my sailmaker did what he did.... I always thought he was a pretty smart guy. I guess he is even smarter than I thought. Now, for another question: What is the proper use of the running backstays on cutter rigs... I primarily use Sea Dragon's to offset the forces on the mast produced by the forestay. For me that is a little more tension on the running backstays to eliminate mast pumping in heavy winds. Under most conditions on the bay I do not use them at all.... Well OK they make nice grab points when going forward. Thank you in advance for you help. Garner
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Runners ...

The REAL purpose of runners / running backstays is to apply stress/loads to the mast (up high) so that it stops 'pumping' or to correct the mast when it becomes 'reverse bowed' .... usually encountered in very HIGH or extreme wind conditions ... usually F8 and above. At less than 'survival' conditions you can 'cheat' and simply use the runners to help the backstay support the headstay/forestay loads with a wee bit more applied tension from the runners . ..... more properly you can use a good backstay adjuster (costly for a big boat). From about the mid 70s through the mid 90s many cutter designers omitted runners and added whats known as 'intermediate stays' - intermediates running from the same chainplate as the aft lower and connecting at the same level as the cutter's forestay (hounds). Intermediates can do the job of a runner but without support and geometry of spreaders imparts SEVERE deck/vertical loads and can tear out a chainplate due to the poor trigonometry because of the small angles that the intermediates make with the mast. So if you have 'intermediates' its probably better to remove them (saving weight aloft) and use the more 'mathematicallly correct' runners .... or even better install a 'good' backstay adjuster. Runners are a royal PITA because when tacking/gybing you have to drop one side and set the other side .... and add to the 'complexity' of sailing a cutter. Runners are typically used for offshore passages and long distance sailing, rarely needed for coastal sailing conditions.
 
Jun 9, 2004
165
Hunter 37-cutter San Francisco Bay
cutter rigs -- Love 'em

I've had my Hunter 37 cutter designed by Cherubini for more than five years and like it a lot. As I understand it, boats designed as cutters usually have several specific differences from a sloop design: -- The mast is usually shorter, and a bit further back, for balance. -- The sails are all a bit smaller than on a sloop, as a result there being three not two; -- The staysail is most effective upwind, and somewhat less so downwind, though I am still playing around with different configurations (wing on wing on wing??); -- The adjustable backstays are used primarily to strengthen the mast and rig when the staysail is in use, as the mast/rig is a bit lighter built than on a sloop. -- The jib is almost always a Yankee (cut up off the deck for visibility) and rarely more than 100%. I don't believe I have ever seen a 150 genoa on a cutter, though I am sure they could be used in areas of routinely light winds. (I have a light-air drifter, which I have never needed.) Some owners of 37 cutters have converted to a sloop rig, but I noticed that the son of the designer John Cherubini pointed out that is not the way the boat was designed to be sailed. My sailing experience in San Francisco Bay is similar to that mentioned already: I can comfortably use all sails up to about 20-25 knots, when I usually roll up the jib. (If it was a 150 I would be rolling or reefing a lot earlier...) Then if it pipes up to 25-30 or above, I put one reef in the main and can maintain comfort and hull speed. I actually have a spare staysail with reefing points installed, but have never had to use that. S.
 

higgs

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Aug 24, 2005
3,704
Nassau 34 Olcott, NY
Good discussion

sand Sailor: A running backstay is, on cutters, mounted at the same height as the staysail and runs aft. There will be two - one for port and one for starboard usually terminating several feet forward of the stern on each side. My Nassua has permantly mounted runners that terminate just aft of the aft lowers. Some runners are disconnected on the windward side. I am surprised to hear that most of you with the cutter rig like the staysail for upwind work. I have not used it soley for that and will see what happens. I have found, and correct me if I am wrong, that when both head sails are out, I adjust the staysail to the telltales and then sort of fudge the yankee to get what seems like a good slot. With the staysail up, I cannot see the yankee's telltales from the cockpit. What have those of you with this rig found effective. I do like the rig and want to maximise its performance and effectiveness.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Setting/shaping staysails for best efficiency plus

the SEMINAL modern theories of sail interaction and how they really work, etc. try: .... http://www.arvelgentry.com/magaz/The_Double_Head_Rig.pdf This is probably the ONLY definitive (areodynamically applicable) article ever written on the interaction of a staysail with a mainsail and jib/genoa, etc. The URL is an article written by the very person who debunked the slot effect, etc. and set the sailing world on its collective ear when he described HOW SAILS REALLY WORK in various magazine articles. http://www.arvelgentry.com/magaz/How_Sails_Really_Work.pdf .... not for the technically faint of heart. http://www.arvelgentry.com You can follow into Mr. Gentry's other articles and technical sail-related works by going to www.arvelgentry.com then following the links through his technical papers and magazine articles. Warning, although written for the non-technical reader, these articles sometimes must be read several times to be clearly understood. If you want precise bombproof methods for enhancement of upwind performance perfection (sloop, cutter, ketch ... doesnt matter) via the use of tell-tales go to the magazine articles and look up the articles that appeared in a serialized set for SAIL magazine in the early/mid 70s: Checking Trim on the Wind, November 1973 Achieving Proper Balance, December 1973 Sailing to Windward, January 1974 Are You at Optimum Trim?, March 1974 Higgs.... for beating with a staysail, if you setup your staysail as described in the "double headed rig" article you really dont need to use the telltales on the staysl. Once set up with the shape: rounded luff entry (done by heavy halyard tension) and FLAT leech exit (also a result of hard halyard tension plus proper fairlead attachment .... or extrement outhaul tension if on a a clubfoot which I prefer). All you really need to do is properly set/shape the 'other' sails using telltales (and special gentry-tufts) as found in the 4 articles in the preceding paragraph ...... then slowly PULL IN/LET OUT the staysail to the boats centerline while watching the SPEEDO and the combination will optimize automatically. The turbulance at the mast will reduce which will enhance the efficiency of the mainsail, which in turn will increase the efficiency of the jib/genoa, etc. ..... you may or MAY NOT see any change in the flow of any telltales that are on the staysail due to the reduced flow across the staysail ... but you will probably see/notice different flow patterns on the telltale patterns of the main/genoa ... and THAT is where you get the increase in efficiency when beating with a staysail. The staysail will NOT be 'drawing' but WILL definitely enhance the overall efficiency of the total sail plan ..... as the article explains it is very difficult to 'hit the sweetspot' spot with a staysail; I can usually find it with the a digital SPEEDO.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,991
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Good references, Rich

I also believe thse were published in SAIL magazine's two (old) books "Best of Sail Trim" and "More Best of Sail Trim."
 
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