Cracked ignition

[Team118]

Hey guys;

Over the past few months, I've noticed that the house battery system seems to run down during a normal 2-3 hour sail. To the point that I have to switch over to both to start the boat.

It has never done this before, so my first thought was that my batteries are on their last legs. Which was strange because they are only 3 years old. I use a Xantrex 3 stage charger on both banks with the house bank also connected directly to the alternator.

The reserve never gets any use.

In addition, I've noticed that it was more and more difficult to get the key in the ignition 'just right' to start the boat. I had to jiggle it a bit to get it started.

And finally, I have also had 3-4 issues with the boat's engine dying on the way back to the docks this season. At first I thought this was a fuel issue, the tank was original and was FULL of crap. I replaced the tank and all the lines are new, including a fuel filter.

Unfortunately the boat died again yesterday in the harbor channel. Heading south, winds out of the south, channel about 30' wide...took an hour just to clear into deeper water. I finally got the motor started.

Which has me believing it might the coil, etc.

Well today I replaced the ignition in the cockpit and I noticed the housing was cracked. Pic below.

Could this have caused a short somewhere that caused the house bank to drain and could it have caused the ingine to quit after warming up? Or is this a dead end and I need to continue to triage the electical system in the engine.

I believe the fuel system is resolved....

Thanks for any thought, I'll also be over at Moyer's sight looking too and going through his troubleshooting books.

Thanks
Chris

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

not a diesel, right?

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Chris,

I don't think the damaged switch stressed the batteries although it certainly needs replacement. As for the shut down, how hot was the coil at shutdown? Electronic or points ignition? Has anything been changed or replaced recently?

Are you sure the alternator is functioning properly? A quick voltage test at the battery while under power should tell the story, should be in the neighborhood of 14 volts

 

[Team118]

I'm sorry Don...I know what I'm thinking...forget you guys aren't here with me!

It's a 1977 Catalina 30 with Atomic 4 gas engine.

The engine has always run very well, good oil pressure, raw water intake always runs about 180 degrees, never higher, never lower.

My biggest problem was always the fuel system and the fuel tank. The old sender unit unit was floating around in the tank, chunks of 'whatever', old varnish, etc. The gas looked like chocolate milk when I finally had enough.

The last straw was after an 80 mile race, on the way home that night, the engine stalled. THe next day, I disconnected the fuel line between the filter and the intake in the tank and I blew into the hose. I finally heard bubbles and seconds later the reverse siphon spit gas out with TONS of black crap. I ripped the tank out right then and there.

Everything was fine until yesterday, and when I replaced the ignition switch today, that's when I noticed the crack. Tomorrow I'm going to go check the status of the house bank and run the boat out in the bay and see if I can duplicate the same issue. I'm hoping the switch was the problem and there was a short that caused the house bank to drain down so quickly....

Usually doesn't work that way, but ya never know.

Chris

 

[Team118]

Just a quick update:

I think I have 2 seperate issues here...

First is the status of my batteries. I have 2 banks, one house, one reserve.
The house bank is 2 EverStart Maxx29's. I bought them 3 years ago. This bank is connected to a Truecharge 40+ and directly to the alternator.

Again, I've noticed that lately this bank seems to drain very quickly and then recharge quickly. In additiion prior to replace the ignition switch, I had to switch to both banks on the battery switch at the panel to start the engine.

When the engine isn't running, a meter shows about 12.5v on the bank and when the engine is running the meter shows 14.4v. The 2 banks are connected to a Truecharge Monitoring Panel. I've noticed that when I connected the boat to shore power, the charger would engage (I would hear the fan) and the banks would charge up in the 14-14.5v range. When I'd come back the next day, the house bank would be back down in the 12.0-12.5v range again...

Both banks are connected to a Blue Seas battery switch panel and a Blue Seas DC Panel. There is a 100amp breaker on the battery switch panel that feeds the DC panel. When I switch this off, all power to the boat is off. I've checked this.

I also notice when I'm sailing the only things on are my stereo and a Humminbird 587i Plotter/Depth Sounder. I watch the Volt meter go from about 14v down to about 12v while I'm sailing (2-3 hours)

So perhaps, these batteries have bitten the dust. Which may be my fault, during the winter I leave them in my garage and in the spring I refill them with distilled water and recharge them. I've noticed on occasion that they do bubble over as I've smelled acid. I may have seriously depleted their ability to hold a charge.... I assume there is a way to check this?

The second issue:

The engine (Atomic gas) quits abruptly while motoring back to the dock (usually 30-50 minuites motoring). After an hour or so I can get the motor started.

The fuel is clean, the filter is new, there is fuel coming into the pump which I've taken apart and it is fine. The carb is clean, it too has been cleaned.

Plugs are new, plug wires are new, alternator seems to work and belt is new.

The wire from the regulator of the alternator to the coil is fine. The wire from the coil to the starter is fine. The ground from the starter is fine.

The engine (according to my gauges) runs about 150-160 degrees and the oil pressure is about 50. Both needles remain 'at twelve oclock' after engine runs.

I have never replaced the coil, condensors, points, etc.

I truly find it hard to accept this a fuel issue, I have tried spraying starter fluid directly into bowl and I only get a momentary start.

Everything I see seems to point to the coil? I guess after writing this, I should just go head and get a coil, but this kind of troubleshooting feels kind of above my head...

Any thoughts would be great.
Chris

I put a pic of my DP, house battery location and charger...

 

[woodster]

One other thing

Just a quick update:

I think I have 2 seperate issues here...

First is the status of my batteries. I have 2 banks, one house, one reserve.
The house bank is 2 EverStart Maxx29's. I bought them 3 years ago. This bank is connected to a Truecharge 40+ and directly to the alternator.

Again, I've noticed that lately this bank seems to drain very quickly and then recharge quickly. In additiion prior to replace the ignition switch, I had to switch to both banks on the battery switch at the panel to start the engine.

When the engine isn't running, a meter shows about 12.5v on the bank and when the engine is running the meter shows 14.4v. The 2 banks are connected to a Truecharge Monitoring Panel. I've noticed that when I connected the boat to shore power, the charger would engage (I would hear the fan) and the banks would charge up in the 14-14.5v range. When I'd come back the next day, the house bank would be back down in the 12.0-12.5v range again...

Both banks are connected to a Blue Seas battery switch panel and a Blue Seas DC Panel. There is a 100amp breaker on the battery switch panel that feeds the DC panel. When I switch this off, all power to the boat is off. I've checked this.

I also notice when I'm sailing the only things on are my stereo and a Humminbird 587i Plotter/Depth Sounder. I watch the Volt meter go from about 14v down to about 12v while I'm sailing (2-3 hours)

So perhaps, these batteries have bitten the dust. Which may be my fault, during the winter I leave them in my garage and in the spring I refill them with distilled water and recharge them. I've noticed on occasion that they do bubble over as I've smelled acid. I may have seriously depleted their ability to hold a charge.... I assume there is a way to check this?

The second issue:

The engine (Atomic gas) quits abruptly while motoring back to the dock (usually 30-50 minuites motoring). After an hour or so I can get the motor started.

The fuel is clean, the filter is new, there is fuel coming into the pump which I've taken apart and it is fine. The carb is clean, it too has been cleaned.

Plugs are new, plug wires are new, alternator seems to work and belt is new.

The wire from the regulator of the alternator to the coil is fine. The wire from the coil to the starter is fine. The ground from the starter is fine.

The engine (according to my gauges) runs about 150-160 degrees and the oil pressure is about 50. Both needles remain 'at twelve oclock' after engine runs.

I have never replaced the coil, condensors, points, etc.

I truly find it hard to accept this a fuel issue, I have tried spraying starter fluid directly into bowl and I only get a momentary start.

Everything I see seems to point to the coil? I guess after writing this, I should just go head and get a coil, but this kind of troubleshooting feels kind of above my head...

Any thoughts would be great.
Chris

I put a pic of my DP, house battery location and charger...

check your ground wire on the engine to battry bank and also check the ground wire on your ignition coil as well that will some times cause you trouble if they are in a weak state of connection

regards

woody

 

[jrowan]

I have the 11hp diesel, but our electrical system seems to be almost identical. I also have the True Charge unit, and the same Blue Sea electrical panel, which by the way should be a 30 Amp Breaker for 110 volt side. 100 amps would be a huge capacity.

My batteries never seem to last more then about 3 years. The length of their lifespan depends A LOT on how they're used. If U draw them down more then 50% of their rating then they can loose efficiency permanently, & will eventually fail to hold a charge. One bad battery will pull down charge from the good one as power will always try to equalize when the switch for both batteries is turned on. This will eventually kill the good battery too, so its usually best to replace them both at the same time. If they're both the same age, then they will wear out nearly the same rate. But U answered your own question when U said that U had to refill them with water: if they worked hard enough to boil out some of the water in the electrolyte solution, then their capacity to charge was severely diminished. The only sailor to get 4+ years of life on his batteries is probably Nigel Calder! As far as your engine trouble, sounds like U still have a fuel problem. If it was electrical the engine wouldn't run for 30+ minutes before stalling. Check the fuel pressure at the fuel pump after running for a while. The seals may be wearing out & losing fuel pressure when they heat up. My 2 cents worth.

 

[Team118]

I appreciate that advice, how would I go about checking fuel pressure?

I will also look at the 100 amp breaker, I know that's overkill and ironically 'under' protection for the system I have, I just never changed what was in the panel when I bought it.

Thanks
Chris

 

[jrowan]

Not sure as it depends on what type of fuel pump U have. Mechanical type depends on good seals to work. The electric type needs good constant power voltage. If your losing electrical power, that could explain the engine cutting off if the fuel pump is not getting adequate juice for constant pump / flow rate. By the way, when U replaced your fuel tank, did U replace the fuel pickup tube & fuel lines as well? They're well known for getting hidden clogs at the screen in the bottom of the fuel pickup tube, and deteriorated rubber fuel lines can get clogged by rubber scale breaking off inside the lines. Your running for 30 minutes sounds a lot like when my motor would cut out on my old Yanmar - & it was due to a clogged fuel pickup tube screen. Those screens should be banned! Good luck.

 

[Team118]

Ok, thanks. The pump is mechanical and I believe the seals are ok, but I will look into getting new ones and replacing them.

Obviously the pump works because I do get flow...

And yes, the new tank came with a new pick up tube and all of the fuel lines were replaced 2 years ago.

I guess I keep plugging away.

Thanks guys!
Chris

 

[Team118]

Just a final update to close this thread in case anyone reads this in the future.

I ordered a new coil, rotor, points and condensor and put them in today.

They came from Moyer Marine and I have their Maintainence Guides so I used them to 'guide' me through the process.

Not understanding how the distributor works, I did it as a direct substitution....which doesn't work. For those with little or no experience with old style points and condensors it isn't quite that simple.

Embarassingly I just switched the parts out and then tried to restart the engine, which obviously didn't work.

As I went back through the manual I noticed that I had to 'move' the engine so that one of the 'lobes' on the 'cam' was opening the points...wtf?

So now I have to turn the engine over? I know there's an access shaft in the front of the engine, but on the Catalina that is a non starter and I KNOW I don't have the proper gear even if I could get access or bit the bullet and cut an access hole to the slot...I sat and sat.

I finally put the engine in gear and used a set of vice grips and after wrapping the shaft, turned the motor...which turned the distributor. That's when I saw what Moyer means about 'cams' and 'lobes' moving. I saw what those lobes do by pushing the points open.

So I gapped them and tried again.

The engine started right up and I let her run at the dock for a good 45 minutes with no problems. Not a very good way to test my problem as the engine wasn't under load and the access panels were all open which allowed heat to dissapate. I guess the true test will be to take her out and run her hard to see if it actually is an overheating issue with the coil, points, etc.

My gut feeling is it is an electrical problem and not a fuel problem...we'll see!!!

Thanks to all for your advice and direction.
Chris