Couple's Dream Trip --- and keels falling off

Johnb · Mar 30, 2018

You are doing sailors at large a service by triggering this discussion.

I guess keel loss cause could be broadly divided into catastrophic events (hit a container) or deterioration (bolts corroded, hull weakened by repetitive stress). In the case of the former there may not be all that much an individual owner can do after using basic common sense and good seapersonship to not do anything stupid.

It would be helpful to have a do list of actions we can take to try and ensure that keels are not deteriorating e.g.
Have the keel bolts torqued
On haul out inspect for cracks and movement - check in the area of ???? because that is where they start
Whilst sailing hard, eyeball ???? and look for movement. Use a mechanics stethoscope to listen for looseness or knocking.
Look for weeping in the

This would help us to go from "something must be done" to actionable - "able to be done or acted on; having practical value".

Jackdaw · Mar 30, 2018

Johnb said:
You are doing sailors at large a service by triggering this discussion.

I guess keel loss cause could be broadly divided into catastrophic events (hit a container) or deterioration (bolts corroded, hull weakened by repetitive stress). In the case of the former there may not be all that much an individual owner can do after using basic common sense and good seapersonship to not do anything stupid.

Add:
Engineering/design/construction flaws
Improper repair after damage

But really. 75 incidents in over 30 years? That's about 2 per year. More people get hit by lightning while falling off buildings in a year.

Will Gilmore · Mar 30, 2018

rgranger said:
You must be an engineer.... or a former logistics officer.

I'd go with logistics officer. Are we starting a pool on this?
Some good questions and general directions to begin the discussion on. How much of a problem is it, statistically speaking? Nobody wants to loose their keel. It's a hard one to know the answers for. Certainly the couple who lost their boat had an opportunity to know more, since they had just spent a season working on their new purchase. I'll bet their first concern, with their subsequent boat was how well the keel was attached.

- Will (Dragonfly)

SG · Mar 30, 2018

I too thought the Scuttlebutt link to that discussion of keel maintenance protocol and maintenance that you posted RGranger was interesting. For ease of reference: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2018/03/29/keels-falling-off/

Most sailboats with ballasted keels (as opposed to smaller boats, multi hulls, scows, etc.) have an external keel which is bolted on. Most older boats (say 30-50 years old show few issues -- rarely catastrophic ones. Even more rare are the cases where there wasn't some warning signs or some major "bump" or grind or slam. Extreme designs are probably the first place to worry unless there was some "history of violence".

There are some designs and manufacturers (which the article in Scuttlebutt) that have had issues. (e.g., Bavaria in the inland lake sailing in Europe -- hardly the Roaring Forties :^))). Then there was the Oyster which sunk (and may have sunk the company) which didn't have a corrosion issue, but some fundamental construction (or maybe, design) flaws.

Personally, I'm not sure I'd be messing with a keel to hull joint for a conventional bolted-on lead keel and it's bedding unless I had some suspicion of a problem for a well designed and constructed boat. If you have reason to believe your boat wasn't, or if it had a been damaged, then that calculus would change for me.

As for that unfortunate couple that got hard grounded at speed in an inlet -- I wouldn't rush to assume that was the result of an incidental, minor "soft grounding in soft mud" alone.

Jackdaw · Mar 30, 2018

SG said:
I too thought the Scuttlebutt link to that discussion of keel maintenance protocol and maintenance that you posted RGranger was interesting. For ease of reference: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2018/03/29/keels-falling-off/

Most sailboats with ballasted keels (as opposed to smaller boats, multi hulls, scows, etc.) have an external keel which is bolted on. Most older boats (say 30-50 years old show few issues -- rarely catastrophic ones. Even more rare are the cases where there wasn't some warning signs or some major "bump" or grind or slam. Extreme designs are probably the first place to worry unless there was some "history of violence".

There are some designs and manufacturers (which the article in Scuttlebutt) that have had issues. (e.g., Bavaria in the inland lake sailing in Europe -- hardly the Roaring Forties :^))). Then there was the Oyster which sunk (and may have sunk the company) which didn't have a corrosion issue, but some fundamental construction (or maybe, design) flaws.

Personally, I'm not sure I'd be messing with a keel to hull joint for a conventional bolted-on lead keel and it's bedding unless I had some suspicion of a problem for a well designed and constructed boat. If you have reason to believe your boat wasn't, or if it had a been damaged, then that calculus would change for me.

As for that unfortunate couple that got hard grounded at speed in an inlet -- I wouldn't rush to assume that was the result of an incidental, minor "soft grounding in soft mud" alone.

Amen.

The VAST majority of keel failures are of three types.
1- Engineering/design/construction flaws
2 - Improper repair after damage
3- Catastrophic accident

1) Like the Bavaria Match and the Oyster were indeed flaws, but isolated.
2) Like what happened to Cheeki Rafeeki is a concern to any buyer of a used boat with damage repair.
3) Be it bad luck or bad navigation, this is what it is.

Overall, I've seen no evidence of this situation getting worse over time that cannot be explained via simple statistics.

Will Gilmore · Mar 30, 2018

Jackdaw said:
simple statistics.

It is amazing how "simple statistics" can be abused and/or miss construed.

I think the 4th category would be maintanence - age, corrosion, electrolysis. This often happens out of sight. Bolt heads can look good, bedding, surrounding timbers or glass be solid and yet, threads just corrode away.

Now that sailboats with deep bulb keels can reach speeds well in excess of 10 knots, what would have been an annoying bump or tangled crab pot may end up being a torn off keel. Even small, soft objects like sunfish have much more dramatic effects at higher speeds and deeper (longer) lever-arms.

- Will (Dragonfly)

Charlie Jones s/v Tehani · Mar 30, 2018

I guess I'm just a fogie

. When I was restoring Tehani, with her external cast keel, I could not inspect the bolts to my satisfaction. Some looked good, but many were inaccessible..

So I added floors, drilled and tapped new heavily galvanized bolts and increased the original nine bolts by 12 more, for a total of 21 bolts altogether. Haven't had a single problem!!

SG · Mar 30, 2018

Even small, soft objects like sunfish have much more dramatic effects at higher speeds and deeper (longer) lever-arms.
Will, I bumped a what I believe was a sunfish in the Gulf of Maine.

It was just after dawn, a 3 or 4 knot ghosty wind at about 130 degrees apparent, flat seas, and we had our asymmetric chute up trying to get from outside Cape Cod to Southwest Harbor, ME by sometime the next morning without using much fuel. We were going about three knots in a glassy, flat sea.

Suddenly, a clear and unmistakable "bump" and then a lot of moving water and a fin off the port bow. It was clear it was a very big fish. A whale, or maybe a white shark were my first impressions? I asked the crew member (a semi-pro sailor who was watching the chute and trimming it). He said, "Naw, that's a big sunfish?" I'd never heard or seen of one. He said his guess it was a "medium" sized 700# one. :^)))). It must have been lounging on the surface and our bow caught most of it. It didn't make it to the keel's joint with the hull except for maybe the tail section which was "in action" at point.

Whatever it was, it was big, and it immediately moved away. My crew mate said that some sunfish get enormous, especially in more southern waters. I don't know he was right about the sunfish, he was in a better position to see it because he was aft of the spreaders, holding the chute's sheet. I was at the helm and futzing with the main. I had to lean over the rail to try to see something. All I saw was commotion and a quick tail as it dived away.

Some ocean sunfish get over 2,000 pounds.

P.S. = I've seen big creatures there (probably White Sharks). One I thought was a whale because the nose and fin were so far apart. Then the tail surfaced behind it. The tail was vertical, not like a whale's horizontal tail orientation. I sure love the waters off the Cape Cod and the Gulf of Maine in the summer when it's relatively calmer and warmer than other times of the year :^))).

shemandr · Mar 30, 2018

Probably was a Sunfish. They are common in those waters. We see them regularly. They have a big fin that flops back and forth. Any real swimming fish would likely swim away from your boat unless it was injured. Sunfish hang out on the surface so you are more likely to hit it with your hull rather than your keel. I love seeing sea critters in our waters too. What were we talking about?
Oh, keels falling off. Some of these boats are getting pretty old. Maybe I should read the article before commenting further.

Will Gilmore · Mar 30, 2018

SG, I believe you mentioned the incident with the sunfish in another thread, which is why I used that example. I also have seen sunfish lounging on the surface in the Gulf of Maine. We were out on one of my father's boats when we spied it and sailed over. The fish did not swim away, despite our crossing its path multiple times, to get a good look. That really endeared my father to my wife for changing course to indulge her children.

- Will (Dragonfly)

SG · Mar 30, 2018

I believe you mentioned the incident with the sunfish in another thread, which is why I used that example. I also have seen sunfish lounging on the surface in the Gulf of Maine. We were out on one of my father's boats when we spied it and sailed over. The fish did not swim away, despite our crossing its path multiple times, to get a good look. That really endeared my father to my wife for changing course to indulge her children.
Neat story, Will.
I'm speculating that a big, healthy sunfish doesn't feel too threatened by a "normal" recreational boat -- as long as it doesn't hit it. ;^)))

Seeing a big fish, like seeing a deer in the wild really makes someone's day. Just a few seals, whales, tuna leaping out of the water, even a shark fin (if you're in a boat that's got no issues), really make a day a lot more memorable. (I had one Castaway like moment with a bigger brown and black whale south of Long Island that surfaced about 20 or 25 feet abeam of us, heading the same direction. It rolled around and seemed to stare at me what seemed like a long time (maybe 10-20 seconds, or more). I really wonder, "What did that creature sense as he looked at me or the boat?" His eye seemed to be focused on me. (If you've ever been with a big cat that suddenly looks intently at you and you seem to see the reflections on the back of its eyeballs, you know what I mean.) ;^)))).

Doug4bass · Mar 30, 2018

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/check-your-keels.190200/#post-1438717

SFS · Mar 30, 2018

Talked to a guy in the marina yesterday, at the end of his cruising season on a Seaward 26. The boat was pristine. We talked for awhile, the topic turned to the Bahamas, and he says "yeah, that's where my ballast came off". Fortunately, they were motoring, and the boat was so stable they didn't know it happened! They anchored for the night, went swimming, and saw that the ballast was gone. I asked if the bolts had failed, and he said no, it was fully encapsulated!
So they motored back to the US, and called the factory, and asked flat out if this had happened before. The lead engineer said yes. How many, the owner asks. "This makes about 10 or 12". The owner then tells me that's about 10 percent of the production run.

Could be all smoke, and I had never heard of a Seaward before 2 days ago, but if true, that's a lot of failures.

SG · Mar 30, 2018

Talked to a guy in the marina yesterday, at the end of his cruising season on a Seaward 26. The boat was pristine. We talked for awhile, the topic turned to the Bahamas, and he says "yeah, that's where my keel came off". Fortunately, they were motoring, and the boat was so stable they didn't know it happened! They anchored for the night, went swimming, and saw that the keel was gone. I asked if the keel bolts had failed, and he said no, it was fully encapsulated!
So they motored back to the US, and called the factory, and asked flat out if this had happened before. The lead engineer said yes. How many, the owner asks. "This makes about 10 or 12". The owner then tells me that's about 10 percent of the production run.
As with all secondhand stories, it may be somewhat garbled.

First, I can't imagine someone losing their keel, them motoring across the Gulf Stream from the Bahamas to Florida.
The Seaward 26 RK was a newer variation of the Seaward 25. It featured a retractable keel. Maybe they mean something different than "lost our keel"? It had bulbs on it, maybe something else? If one "loses" a retractable keel, I'm sure motoring or sailing become intractable. :^))) Certainly with a mast up or in any wind or waters. (Not the stuff the Gulf Stream crossings were every tried or succeeded in achieving, in my humble...)

https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/31_7/boatreview/Seaward_26_RK_5095-1.html

The Seward 25 was a trailerable "pocket cruiser" (whatever that means :^))) ). It was less that 24 honest feet long, from the article below.
https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/29_3/boatreview/Seaward_25_4778-1.html

Underwater appendages are a shallow, 2' 1" deep, 8-foot long fixed keel, and a fairly small, low-aspect transom-hung rudder. In a modification from early models, Hake added a 26" wing to the aft part of the keel in 1989. The wing helps increase the keel's profile when heeled, and, according to Hake, improves upwind perfomance.

The Seaward 25 has been on the market since 1984 in various models, and is continually evaluated with an eye to improving performance or livability. It was last redesigned in 1995.

MitchM · Mar 30, 2018

i lost the swing down keel on a cal 20 in my youth .. calm lake water, 4 knots wind, badly noticeable effect on tracking. only discovered it when i went to crank the keel back up into its slot and it wasn't there any more...

JamesG161 · Mar 30, 2018

Will Gilmore said:
maintanence - age, corrosion, electrolysis

At least on my boat, Hunter spec'd 316 SS bolts that hold 7200 lbs of Lead/Antimony [gravity wt]
I bought Hunter because of good Design and Resale [mark of reliability and longevity].

The lateral Stress Forces to move my boat under sail are focused on the keel, in other words, trying to rip it off the hull.
I don't have the Impact force that Hunter used when sizing my keel bolts nor the structure design to resist all potential forces applied.

So...

I am left with "actionable items"...
1) Maintenance
2) Corrosion prevention on the bolts
_____
My Maintenance...
1) Every 5 years paint hull and seal keel to hull seam
2) Inspect the bolts with a magnified light
3) Test my grounding wire for continuity

My Corrosion prevention...
1) Check my grounding wire
2) Maintain my Zincs [although they don't protect my keel bolts]
3) Every 6 months check marina for stray currents.
________
Stress Crack Corrosion on 316 SS at sea water temperatures and in a sealed/stagnant keel is not significant.

What me worry about my Hunter? nah...
I am going sailing in the morning.

Jim...

PS: Winds 10 knot, 75°, light seas...

SFS · Mar 30, 2018

@SG - Sorry for the mis-speak, I meant "ballast", not "keel". Have changed the words in my post above to avoid further confusion.

This was a retractable CB boat, with the upper end of the board being a shiny square rod sticking up through the coachroof just ahead of the mast. Owner said the CB was electrically operated. Boat apparently draws 6 feet with the board down, and 18 inches with it up. He said it was perfect for the Bahamas.

When the ballast came off (damn, I typed "keel" again), he called the factory from the Bahamas and they told him the boat was stable to motor. I agree with you, no way I'm crossing in that condition.

SG · Mar 30, 2018

@SFS - now I understand. Still not much to keep one vertical! I don't know what I'd do, but I'd not likely go across the Stream either.

The big advantage of a 25' boat at that point is that it can get put on a little freighter. And get taken back to Ft Lauderdale or Riveira Beach/west Palm.

People do survive som stupid stuff -- I guess someone could motor across if the winds stayed nil and seas flat.

Couple's Dream Trip --- and keels falling off

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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