Considering a CP22 - Advice Needed

[delling3]

Hello -

I found this forum, and figured what better place could there be to ask this question. I am a long-time sailor. I have been actively racing (PHRF) for the past 15 or so years (including 10 Mackinac races). I find that my sailing priorities are changing, and I am actively looking to downsize from my current boat (Pearson Flyer 30) to a smaller, trailerable boat. Ideally, I want a boat that can be reasonably rigged and launched from a ramp by 1-2 adults, but at the same time I still plan on staying active in my local PHRF fleet. I primarily sail on Lake St. Clair, near Detroit, an area that is know for mainly light to moderate breezes, and can get quite choppy if the wind gets up above 10-12 knts.

I have talked to some of my sailing buddies about the CP22 (std rig, wing keel) and they have expressed some doubt that the boat will be competitive sailing in our fleet. I would be in a class of keel boats like the Catalina 25/27, Pearson 26, etc. Boats in my class rate ≈ 200 to 240. It appears that the CP22 carries a rating around 210 in this area.

I would be curious about some owners impressions about the CP22 sailing in the conditions I described. I assume that the wing keel boat won't go to weather as well as a fin feel boat, but I think the wing keel better fits the trailerability side of the equation. The boat seems to compare in many ways with the J-22, other than the keel. I have always considered the J22 to be a competitive PHRF boat . . .

 

[HERSH]

Tough question. Depends on your PHRF region. My CP-22 std wing has a base of 213 for my area. YRALIS.org (.com?)
The standard Catalina 25 has a rating of 240 in my region -- most other regions around 222.

Pearson 26 -- the Pearson 26 O.D. version is a killer in our area. Easily keeps up with bigger boats such as Catalina 30 or Sabre 28 ( 210). It was "funny" how the championship followed the boat -- not the sailor.

And again you could have two identical boats --- one skipper has $5K in new racing sails and the other has 10 year old sails and their numbers are the same.

And the boats are different. Every dog will have it's day. Light to medium with no chop I'll kill the Cat 25. Wind pick up and a chop, he'll walk away from me.

Just do not take the PHRF seriously and you will have fun.

Hershey

 

[jerrymlewis]

My 1985 Capri 22 standard rig fin keel competes well against faster PHRF boats - especially in light to moderate breeze (0-8mph). This year we took first place at Whiskeytown Regatta (Redding, CA), second to a Wavelength 24 at Camellia Cup (Sacramento, CA) and fourth in a fleet of a dozen faster PHRF boats at High Sierra regatta (Huntington Lake in the mountains above Fresno, CA) behind two Olson 25s and a Merit 25 (but beat them all in the final race when we figured out the wind patterns on the lake). We beat a Holder 20, J24, two Olson 25s, two Catalina 25s and a Merit 25 in this year's PHRF B fleet. Last time we raced there we were in the PHRF C fleet and placed first overall against similarly rated boats. We regularly better a J70 and J24 in our club races on Scotts Flat Lake near Grass Valley, CA. It's those pesky Catalina 22 with their huge 288 PHRF that I have to watch for, finishing tens of minutes behind me and still correcting closer than I like. And that's using NorCal's PHRF number of 204.

Whenever I've raced against the wing keel version of the Capri 22, the fin does better upwind and equal to or slightly slower downwind (especially if the breeze is light). In moderate breeze, the fin wins both ways!

And it is not that hard to launch/retrieve, doing it more than a dozen times each summer (we dry sail between our club's 10 race dates and the four regattas we enter each year). It takes us (two older guys) about 25-30 minutes to rig for launch and then 30-40 minutes from hitting the dock to hitting the road to tow it back home for dry storage in my back yard.


Like others have said, the Capri 22 is a fun boat!

 

[shnool]

All those same attributes and faster rating (174ish) would be the S2 7.9. Note that the S2 7.9 draws 18" of water to launch, but drops to 5' of keel board down. The S2 6.9 is more equivalent to the Capri 22 in rating, so might also be a boat to consider (these are cheap older boats that are readily available in the US). Again I'm not trying to push you to any one boat, only to better answer your question.

Otherwise, asking if the Capri 22 is a good PHRF sailboat on a Capri 22 national association website is kind of just an echo chamber.

By the way the Capri 22, tall rig fin keel is a light air killer in flat seas in that rating range you state (not the easiest to trailer).
The wing keel is OK, but not the preferred configuration to race.
The wing keel tall rig exists of course, but then you have a boat that sacrifices some point in a effort to sail skinny water (and launch easier).

 

[Dfox]

I have experienced similar results as Jerry stated.
We race Portsmouth handicap in north AL.
We have consistently won regattas and Saturday races against Olson 25s, Capri 30, S2 7.9, S2 6.9, x99, pearson26, morgan24 ,cat22, cat 30, cat 27 to name a few.

It is all about boat prep. Good sails , good clean bottom. Etc
Also good crew work and having a consistent crew go a long way.

Doug

 

[delling3]

Thanks for the replies.

As a long time racer, I understand that sound crew, good boat prep, fresh sails and sound tactics win races.

What I wanted to hear is (assuming all of the above), how will the CP22 fare against similarly prepared boats. I won't be racing O.D. - mixed fleet racing is my sweet spot.

The Pearson Flyer is (for it's size) a beamy, light displacement boat, with a 3/4 fractional rig. It can be underpowered, with a small foretriangle and fractional spinnaker. We have found that the boat does much better on a triangle, or other course that features some reaching, as opposed to windward/leewards. Since the CP22 has some similarities (low displacement, frac rig) I am just trying to get a feel if it is the right boat for me, so I appreciate the opinions. Does the standard rig feature enough power to punch thru the chop going upwind, or does the boat tend to be slowed significantly? It am guessing that the boat will surf downwind in a moderate breeze?

Thanks again.

 

[jerrymlewis]

In chop, it's best to power up the main and fall off a hair to speed through, but then I've only raced in chop a few times as it's mostly light air around here. And even when we race on howling Huntington Lake (blows 20-25 all the time) it's at a high altitude so really feels like 15-20 and since it's a long skinny lake, no waves.

Not really a surfer but mine has reached 9.2 knots downwind with the breeze right on a stern quarter!

 

[BillL Capri 22]

At the risk of posting the obvious, the Capri 22 is not a match for the J-22...I think Catalina put together the Cp22 in response to the J22, but decided that the Capri would be less expensive and have some basic sort of interior accommodations, so the Capri ended up heavier and slower...cruiser/racer instead of racer. I too rig and launch my SRFK version every time we go sailing (except for one glorious year). It's manageable but there really is 2 hours of work every trip, and while I have a system down pat, the shenanigans required to get the trailer deep enough to float the boat off the trailer are sometimes entertaining for the peanut gallery. Still, I'm a 12+year owner.

 

[Richard9547]

At the risk of posting the obvious, the Capri 22 is not a match for the J-22...I think Catalina put together the Cp22 in response to the J22, but decided that the Capri would be less expensive and have some basic sort of interior accommodations, so the Capri ended up heavier and slower...cruiser/racer instead of racer.

Quite true.

The J is a more "delicate" boat tho.
Balsa cored hull.
Not a boat to be kept in the water long term.

The Capri has a balsa cored deck, but that's not submerged 24-7.

The Capri is physically larger - beam wise.
Larger cockpit.

And, of course, more comfortable (roomier) below.

 

[shnool]

I'm not a J22 fan per se' but our club has a 25 year old J22 that is in better shape then most Capri 22s I've seen of the same vintage.

I would NOT describe the J22 as "delicate." Balsa core isn't indicative of "delicate" as my S2 7.9 is a balsa cored boat, and I'd built like a tank. Most J22s, especially lately, have been raced hard and put up wet, in the same level of competition, most boats wouldn't hold up much better. The J22 is light though, and does horrifically in a chop. It'll sail circles around a Capri 22 in nearly any conditions though (sailed correctly).

 

[Richard9547]

By "delicate" I mean that a single opening below the waterline will lead to a wet core.
Balsa cored hulls are notorious about that.

 

[shnool]

A single opening below the waterline would "sink" a boat. If you are referring to thru-hull fittings, then your depiction is more than just a little, um, off.
MOST racing boats, and many cruisers are balsa cored, to lighten up the layup of the boat, and provide better sailing characteristics..
Examples of top quality boats that had end-grain balsa cored hulls?
Tartan, Pearson, S2, C&C, J, Beneteau, and the list is quite extensive beyond that.

ANY boat that has a rotten core, suffers from a breakdown of the basic barrier of the outter layer of the shell, or worse, improper bedding of hardware/thru-hulls, the ladder is probably the problem you reference.

If one is to drill through a cored hull (or deck), you are SUPPOSED to overdrill the hole, fill with resin (let dry), then redrill to proper size, this provides an edge that is "coated" and sealed. Also as part of "regular maintenance" you are supposed to remove/rebed or replace/rebed all through-hulls and deck fittings every couple years. This is rarely done, and leads to "wet-core."

What bugs me most about "wet-core" problems is most people ignore the problem, or blow it out of proportion. If you address the problem quickly, it really IS a minor problem. If you allow water intrusion to continue, it can turn into an ugly mess and a shot hull.

Enter END-GRAIN balsa (somewhat) to the rescue. End grain balsa, if properly installed is flexed, wetted with resin, then flexed back again. This creates a grid of blocks of balsa that are essentially islands of balsa, and not one continuous piece. This delays, or retards the water intrusion so that only small sections of core should ever get wet at a time.

OK, so I've bloviated enough... pictures and thousands of words... granted this is deck, but its also a cored hull too, so the layup is exactly the same.
Damage was caused by repeated water freeze/thaw cycles sitting against the cockpit seat in Michigan winters... the water spot was created by rains of the boat sitting on the trailer flat, instead of inclined and slightly tilted to port... Notice the obvious chunks of balsa? These are about 1.5" square end grain balsa chunks... from left to right the rot was worse to the left, and got better to the right. The far left is a solid block of plywood used to reinforce the traveler. Improper bedding of the traveler was NOT the cause, however, not servicing the bedding took a bad problem and made it worse (as water penetrated, it froze and thawed within the substrate, compromising the seal at the traveler.

New end grain balsa, see the squares? Yep I put the same thing back in!

Base is has resin..

If you look I wetted the bottom of the balsa, flexed it, filled in all the edges, then placed it in...

After several layers of resin, and glass, and sanding sanding sanding...

Sorry boat was quite dirty in this picture but here was after several layers of gelcoat. Note each layer of gelcoat (if it includes wax) requires a light sanding and acetone to add a layer...

This might be a better shot (more light) of the finished project.

My point is done properly a balsa core repair isn't the end of the world. Yep its a decent amount of work, but not expensive OR difficult.