I have Catlina 1973 22' that I bought last year, lots of fun. The begenning of this summer, have been working on it as it has been out of the water(Pacific Northwest). Here are a couple of concerns that I have. 1. The pin for the keel has a gallon of epoxy to keep it in the unlock position. It must have been leaking and was a quick fix for somebody. I have not had a blow down, but if happens, I've heard the keel can fly back into the haul and sink the boat. Is this true? 2. There is this valve that can be closed with a plastic T fitting on top. Water goes from the cockpit into it and then the rear of the keel through a tube. It was clogged really bad, so as I was twisting off the plastic T fitting on top, the valve moved about an inch. It's not loose, but with enough force, could move it. I am going to use double hose clamps on everything, but can water come up and sink the boat from that location? These boats are great, but there are some design concerns that I worry about. Thanks, gagews
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T
Ted
Yes, and Yes
Yes the keel, if not "locked" with the bolt can swing back into the hull with great force during a capsize. This will result in fracturing of the hull and the boat will take on water/sink. Yes, if the hose/valve set up leaks it can cause the boat to take on water. The water line is approximately 8" up from the hull bottom in that area, and any leak below that level can/will result in flooding/sinking. So, Don't capsize the boat unless you have the keel bolt fixed and in use, and don't break the hoses/valve in the bilge. You can unclog the drains by skirting water up through the hole underneath the boat. Regards, Ted
Yes the keel, if not "locked" with the bolt can swing back into the hull with great force during a capsize. This will result in fracturing of the hull and the boat will take on water/sink. Yes, if the hose/valve set up leaks it can cause the boat to take on water. The water line is approximately 8" up from the hull bottom in that area, and any leak below that level can/will result in flooding/sinking. So, Don't capsize the boat unless you have the keel bolt fixed and in use, and don't break the hoses/valve in the bilge. You can unclog the drains by skirting water up through the hole underneath the boat. Regards, Ted
Keel
In order for the keel to swing back in and damage the boat, you would have to get "knocked down" close to 90 degrees or more. If the stern is lower than the bow when laying on it's side, then maybe a bit less than 90 might do it since it would be a downhill swing towards the stern. A 550 pound keel is definately not going to swing "uphill" into the boat. It would probably take the combination of poor judgment and/or inexperience, a knockdown and a wave for this scenario to happen. I was knocked down by a huge gust in fairly flat water and the boat didn't get near 90 degrees of heel. Probably something like 65-70 degrees. The boat just rounded up into the wind and stood back up. You can do a lot to stay out of trouble by reefing early. The rule of thumb is "If you're thinking about reefing, it's time to reef". By the way, I personally don't lock my keel down because of the relatively shallow lake where I sail. There are people on both sides of the "lock" issue though, and with good arguments for each side. You can probably search the archives for previous posts on that subject. As for your valve issue, I don't have that arrangement on my boat since it's a newer model. Sounds like the cockpit scupper drain line. There are a lot of very experienced 22 sailors on this site that I'm sure will post some info for you on that subject as well as other opinions regarding the keel.
In order for the keel to swing back in and damage the boat, you would have to get "knocked down" close to 90 degrees or more. If the stern is lower than the bow when laying on it's side, then maybe a bit less than 90 might do it since it would be a downhill swing towards the stern. A 550 pound keel is definately not going to swing "uphill" into the boat. It would probably take the combination of poor judgment and/or inexperience, a knockdown and a wave for this scenario to happen. I was knocked down by a huge gust in fairly flat water and the boat didn't get near 90 degrees of heel. Probably something like 65-70 degrees. The boat just rounded up into the wind and stood back up. You can do a lot to stay out of trouble by reefing early. The rule of thumb is "If you're thinking about reefing, it's time to reef". By the way, I personally don't lock my keel down because of the relatively shallow lake where I sail. There are people on both sides of the "lock" issue though, and with good arguments for each side. You can probably search the archives for previous posts on that subject. As for your valve issue, I don't have that arrangement on my boat since it's a newer model. Sounds like the cockpit scupper drain line. There are a lot of very experienced 22 sailors on this site that I'm sure will post some info for you on that subject as well as other opinions regarding the keel.
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Herb
plumbing
I will cover only the plumbing aspect as Dave covered the keel very well and I agree with everything that he wrote. The cockpit drains run down and have a T in one side to handle the sink drain. the sink drain should have a valve as well to prevent the cockpit drains from filling the sink drain funnel. Now as for the valve coming loose. It is attached to a brass pipe that was glassed into the volcano if it was the pipe that was moving then you need to take the pipe out and reglass it in place ( it will sink the boat)if it was only moving on the threaded pipe then I would say lucky you as yours is not frozen in place and you can replace your valves without worring about breaking the bond of the pipe. If the valve started to seep water around the threads take the valve off and put a thread sealer compund on and reattach the valve ( I would put a new valve in at this time). As for the plugged line. What I do is stick a rag in one cock pit drain and then use the high volume air pump for my dingy and pump air in to force the crud out the bottome hole. I have to do this about everytime we go camping as we track pineneedles and sand back to the boat. then plug the other side and do it again. I use air rather than water as water will fill the cockpit until you get the drain open and I would rather be hit in the face with a shot of air than water. Either way works Let us know what you find. Herb
I will cover only the plumbing aspect as Dave covered the keel very well and I agree with everything that he wrote. The cockpit drains run down and have a T in one side to handle the sink drain. the sink drain should have a valve as well to prevent the cockpit drains from filling the sink drain funnel. Now as for the valve coming loose. It is attached to a brass pipe that was glassed into the volcano if it was the pipe that was moving then you need to take the pipe out and reglass it in place ( it will sink the boat)if it was only moving on the threaded pipe then I would say lucky you as yours is not frozen in place and you can replace your valves without worring about breaking the bond of the pipe. If the valve started to seep water around the threads take the valve off and put a thread sealer compund on and reattach the valve ( I would put a new valve in at this time). As for the plugged line. What I do is stick a rag in one cock pit drain and then use the high volume air pump for my dingy and pump air in to force the crud out the bottome hole. I have to do this about everytime we go camping as we track pineneedles and sand back to the boat. then plug the other side and do it again. I use air rather than water as water will fill the cockpit until you get the drain open and I would rather be hit in the face with a shot of air than water. Either way works Let us know what you find. Herb
A
Aldo
Testing for Leaks
I'll be replacing the thru-hull valve on my C-22 in a few weeks too. I was wondering about how to test it. I can't remember, (and my boat isn't at my house at the moment), whether the drain hole from the cockpit drains is above the keel, or aft of it. Anyhow, what I would like to do is plug the hole somehow, and lower the bow and put a few inches of water onto the cockpit floor, and check it after a day or 2 for leaks around the valve. Correcting the leak would certainly be easier and safer at home than on the water. Could the hole possibly be plugged with a baloon filled with air, if the boat is on the trailer? Also, what kind of sealer would you use on the new valve, Teflon tape? Gage: We always lock our keel down when we sail. It tells you to in the owners manual, and on the sticker near the keel winch. Someone at Catalina certainly thought about this issue. If you run into the bottom, the keel will move. I use a grease stick product on the threads of the locking bolt. It's a waxy grease with teflon on it. It seals the threads, and I only put it on once every spring. I did put some silicone around where the locking bolt goes many years ago, now just regrease the bolt with the grease stick each spring. The grease fills the gaps between the silicone and the bolt. Aldo
I'll be replacing the thru-hull valve on my C-22 in a few weeks too. I was wondering about how to test it. I can't remember, (and my boat isn't at my house at the moment), whether the drain hole from the cockpit drains is above the keel, or aft of it. Anyhow, what I would like to do is plug the hole somehow, and lower the bow and put a few inches of water onto the cockpit floor, and check it after a day or 2 for leaks around the valve. Correcting the leak would certainly be easier and safer at home than on the water. Could the hole possibly be plugged with a baloon filled with air, if the boat is on the trailer? Also, what kind of sealer would you use on the new valve, Teflon tape? Gage: We always lock our keel down when we sail. It tells you to in the owners manual, and on the sticker near the keel winch. Someone at Catalina certainly thought about this issue. If you run into the bottom, the keel will move. I use a grease stick product on the threads of the locking bolt. It's a waxy grease with teflon on it. It seals the threads, and I only put it on once every spring. I did put some silicone around where the locking bolt goes many years ago, now just regrease the bolt with the grease stick each spring. The grease fills the gaps between the silicone and the bolt. Aldo
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Barry Lenoble
keel and plumbing
Hello, I can not believe that the little keel lock down bolt would be anywhere near strong enough to hold the keep in the extended position if the boat were to get knocked over. The bolt probably does prevent the keel from rocking and making noise, but that's about it. I bet that most C22 keels have a gouge from the keep pin being extended, and the keel winched up, I know mine does. Regarding the drains for the sink and cockpit, I use my shop vac to keep them clear. Good luck, Barry
Hello, I can not believe that the little keel lock down bolt would be anywhere near strong enough to hold the keep in the extended position if the boat were to get knocked over. The bolt probably does prevent the keel from rocking and making noise, but that's about it. I bet that most C22 keels have a gouge from the keep pin being extended, and the keel winched up, I know mine does. Regarding the drains for the sink and cockpit, I use my shop vac to keep them clear. Good luck, Barry
C
Campy
Keel Locking Bolt/Drain Volcano
I sail out of Port Orchard Marina in 1973 Hull#2226. Good day to you sir. Replaced my brass drain tube with the Catalina Direct replacement and a bit of epoxy. Did it two years ago and it is still fine. Replaced the hoses with regular see through Tigon tubing from the Hardware store and a PVC T-Valve with male to blank nipples on it. Used single pipe clamps. Never leaks. I went the extra mile and installed the transom drains with the kit from catalina direct. Also very easy to do. With the way my 16 year old daughter thinks she's an olympic sailor my old C-22 gets a regular thrashing and cockpit flooding... which leads me to your second point. We read the manual too. We replaced the old rusty stuck keel locking bolt and strap with the replacement kit from Catalina Direct. Don't bother! We've shipped water in 25 knots of wind at a fair angle of heel, been pretty close to knocked down in Rich Pass coming clear of Bainbridge Is and ran aground in a couple of places. (The keel also doubles as a pretty cool depth sounder too!) The keel locking bolt DOES NOT stop the keel from sliding up into the keel house! 550 pounds of steel goes pretty much where it wants to and a 1/4 inch bolt isn't going to stop it, so don't worry about your boat sinking, breaking or ???. The most important thing to to is to ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS keep the locks on your cockpit lazarette locker doors! They WILL pop open in a knock down and you WILL ship enough water to sink your boat, old styrofoam floatation or not. (Take that stuff out too. It's old smelly and serves no purpose. Big boats don't have that junk in it do they???) Hope to see you in Sinclair inlet if possible. Campy out navysubdoc@yahoo.com
I sail out of Port Orchard Marina in 1973 Hull#2226. Good day to you sir. Replaced my brass drain tube with the Catalina Direct replacement and a bit of epoxy. Did it two years ago and it is still fine. Replaced the hoses with regular see through Tigon tubing from the Hardware store and a PVC T-Valve with male to blank nipples on it. Used single pipe clamps. Never leaks. I went the extra mile and installed the transom drains with the kit from catalina direct. Also very easy to do. With the way my 16 year old daughter thinks she's an olympic sailor my old C-22 gets a regular thrashing and cockpit flooding... which leads me to your second point. We read the manual too. We replaced the old rusty stuck keel locking bolt and strap with the replacement kit from Catalina Direct. Don't bother! We've shipped water in 25 knots of wind at a fair angle of heel, been pretty close to knocked down in Rich Pass coming clear of Bainbridge Is and ran aground in a couple of places. (The keel also doubles as a pretty cool depth sounder too!) The keel locking bolt DOES NOT stop the keel from sliding up into the keel house! 550 pounds of steel goes pretty much where it wants to and a 1/4 inch bolt isn't going to stop it, so don't worry about your boat sinking, breaking or ???. The most important thing to to is to ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS keep the locks on your cockpit lazarette locker doors! They WILL pop open in a knock down and you WILL ship enough water to sink your boat, old styrofoam floatation or not. (Take that stuff out too. It's old smelly and serves no purpose. Big boats don't have that junk in it do they???) Hope to see you in Sinclair inlet if possible. Campy out navysubdoc@yahoo.com
A
Aldo
Thanks, Campy
Thanks, Campy: I've put the hatchboards in when things have gotten exciting in the past, but never latched the cockpit seats shut. Your strong suggestion certainly makes sense. We sail on the Chesapeake, so it's unlikely that you will see us sailing by you in Washington, but it's still nice to know that your offering suggestions. We used our keel as the depth sounder until recently when we added an electronic one. The keel still catches us occasionally. It is amazing how strong it actually is. The Chesapeake is almost all soft bottomed, but a few times in the last 23 years we have hit something hard. It hasn't hurt the keel at all. Aldo
Thanks, Campy: I've put the hatchboards in when things have gotten exciting in the past, but never latched the cockpit seats shut. Your strong suggestion certainly makes sense. We sail on the Chesapeake, so it's unlikely that you will see us sailing by you in Washington, but it's still nice to know that your offering suggestions. We used our keel as the depth sounder until recently when we added an electronic one. The keel still catches us occasionally. It is amazing how strong it actually is. The Chesapeake is almost all soft bottomed, but a few times in the last 23 years we have hit something hard. It hasn't hurt the keel at all. Aldo
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Bob Brown
Keel
I have never locked my keel down. I have been knocked down & the keel stayed extended. See my response to Previous Article in Smaller Boats titled "New to Sailing", regarding my knockdown.
I have never locked my keel down. I have been knocked down & the keel stayed extended. See my response to Previous Article in Smaller Boats titled "New to Sailing", regarding my knockdown.
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Mike C22
no lock on mine
My locking pin was a major source of water coming in. When I bought the boat, the pin was bent badly. The PO must have screwed the pin in all of the way, then lowered the keel, bending the pin so badly it couldn't be retracted. There's a DEEP gouge in the keel from scraping against the pin. The trunk was broken, and the stainless strap assembly was seperated from the fibreglass. I had to grind of the half a**ed repair to re-do it. I phoned Catalina Yachts and spoke to a technician. He suggested removing the lock pin entirely and just reglassing the trunk. I did as he suggested. I have never sufferred a knockdown with the C22, but my previous boat, a Neptune 16 had a swing keel with the lock pin removed. The trunk had been damaged and repaired. I did have a knockdown, and the keel didn't raise up into the trunk as some fear. I do think this. Most of us are sailing on freshwatter lakes, or coastal daysailing. We're not making ocean passages where we may get caught in really heavy winds and seas. Our main problem is running aground and damaging the keel trunk with the locking pin being torn loose by the keel. Even if the locking pin is intact and doesn't leak, it would probably be better to leave it fully retracted and unlocked.Remember, a broken trunk is below the water line and could sink your boat.
My locking pin was a major source of water coming in. When I bought the boat, the pin was bent badly. The PO must have screwed the pin in all of the way, then lowered the keel, bending the pin so badly it couldn't be retracted. There's a DEEP gouge in the keel from scraping against the pin. The trunk was broken, and the stainless strap assembly was seperated from the fibreglass. I had to grind of the half a**ed repair to re-do it. I phoned Catalina Yachts and spoke to a technician. He suggested removing the lock pin entirely and just reglassing the trunk. I did as he suggested. I have never sufferred a knockdown with the C22, but my previous boat, a Neptune 16 had a swing keel with the lock pin removed. The trunk had been damaged and repaired. I did have a knockdown, and the keel didn't raise up into the trunk as some fear. I do think this. Most of us are sailing on freshwatter lakes, or coastal daysailing. We're not making ocean passages where we may get caught in really heavy winds and seas. Our main problem is running aground and damaging the keel trunk with the locking pin being torn loose by the keel. Even if the locking pin is intact and doesn't leak, it would probably be better to leave it fully retracted and unlocked.Remember, a broken trunk is below the water line and could sink your boat.
D
Dave
Bob
Bob, I read your post regarding your knockdown. I'm glad to hear all is well afterwards. Thanks for sharing your experience with us. Was your boat beyond 90 degrees of heel? Sounds like it might have been given the sails were in the water. That's very interesting information that the keel stayed put. Do you have the centering pads installed on the top of your keel? Maybe the friction from these pads in the trunk is what held your keel in place. I know my keel gets pretty tight in the trunk as it lowers because of these pads. It actually takes a while to settle all the way down. It could be that these pads might be a better option than the screw lock to help hold the keel in place. Plenty of friction, but still no damage when grounding. Just a thought.
Bob, I read your post regarding your knockdown. I'm glad to hear all is well afterwards. Thanks for sharing your experience with us. Was your boat beyond 90 degrees of heel? Sounds like it might have been given the sails were in the water. That's very interesting information that the keel stayed put. Do you have the centering pads installed on the top of your keel? Maybe the friction from these pads in the trunk is what held your keel in place. I know my keel gets pretty tight in the trunk as it lowers because of these pads. It actually takes a while to settle all the way down. It could be that these pads might be a better option than the screw lock to help hold the keel in place. Plenty of friction, but still no damage when grounding. Just a thought.
B
Bob Brown
Dave of Oshkosh
Yes that was a once in a life time ride, I hope. We learned a whole lot that day. The boat must have been over more than 90 degrees & the righting effect must have been positive. When I reached up & pulled on the keel, I pulled myself partially out of the water for a few seconds. When the sail to water effect (vaccuum?) was broken, the boat righted itself. I am thinking now. When knocked down (broached), we were sailing with the wind & sails would have been out all the way so when the boat was lying in the water, the sails would have been floating around loose & not pulling the rigging to the water? I suppose that air could have been trapped under the sails, don't know. If the righting effect was negative, the boat would have rolled over. Catalina must have specs. on righting effect/heel degree, although some advertisements (other brands) describe only 90 degree or less heel. I don't have keel pads but would have used them or more likely made some in 1991 when I modified my keel pin, if I had known. The keel pin has a larger diameter where is is pressed into the keel. Heavy interference fit. The pin to bearing clearance was only .004" on the diameter when assembled. I grease them offseason by the 2 zerk fittings. There is a grease reservoir between the end of pin & the blind end of bearing bore. I can see the keel move over when I grease it. I have SS washers on each side of the keel with about 1/16" total side clearance. The keel cannot touch the trunk. There is no friction anywhere which probably is not a good thing. I don't use the keel locking bolt as that looked like a problem waiting to happen. On the other hand no friction could be a bigger problem waiting to happen. If any keel was going to flip up during a knockdown, it should be mine, but it didn't .
Yes that was a once in a life time ride, I hope. We learned a whole lot that day. The boat must have been over more than 90 degrees & the righting effect must have been positive. When I reached up & pulled on the keel, I pulled myself partially out of the water for a few seconds. When the sail to water effect (vaccuum?) was broken, the boat righted itself. I am thinking now. When knocked down (broached), we were sailing with the wind & sails would have been out all the way so when the boat was lying in the water, the sails would have been floating around loose & not pulling the rigging to the water? I suppose that air could have been trapped under the sails, don't know. If the righting effect was negative, the boat would have rolled over. Catalina must have specs. on righting effect/heel degree, although some advertisements (other brands) describe only 90 degree or less heel. I don't have keel pads but would have used them or more likely made some in 1991 when I modified my keel pin, if I had known. The keel pin has a larger diameter where is is pressed into the keel. Heavy interference fit. The pin to bearing clearance was only .004" on the diameter when assembled. I grease them offseason by the 2 zerk fittings. There is a grease reservoir between the end of pin & the blind end of bearing bore. I can see the keel move over when I grease it. I have SS washers on each side of the keel with about 1/16" total side clearance. The keel cannot touch the trunk. There is no friction anywhere which probably is not a good thing. I don't use the keel locking bolt as that looked like a problem waiting to happen. On the other hand no friction could be a bigger problem waiting to happen. If any keel was going to flip up during a knockdown, it should be mine, but it didn't .
G
gagews
Thanks for responses
I am going to live with the keel pin in the open position. It's lake sailing, with moderate winds. For the valve problem, I am going to keep a really close eye on it when I put it in the water. I removed the T-connection(how setup on mine) on top of the valve and stuck my finger in there to open the valve itself. All the water drained as it should. I don't like the idea that those fittings are below water level though, but am not touching anything once it's in the water and everything ok. Double clamping everything.
I am going to live with the keel pin in the open position. It's lake sailing, with moderate winds. For the valve problem, I am going to keep a really close eye on it when I put it in the water. I removed the T-connection(how setup on mine) on top of the valve and stuck my finger in there to open the valve itself. All the water drained as it should. I don't like the idea that those fittings are below water level though, but am not touching anything once it's in the water and everything ok. Double clamping everything.
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