Is there anywhere for a one-stop shop for information on major makers (Bavaria, Catalina, Dehler, Hunter, Beneteau, McGregor, etc.) that provides basic blurbs about reputation and known issues with the line, or specific models (e.g. brand X is poorly regarded across their line, and has many manufacturing problems; brand Y 43' DSs are known to have poor electrical that needs rewiring after only a couple of years)? Sailnet's boatcheck is pretty good, but it's more of a collection of individual opinions, and doesn't have that collective wisdom/caveats that I'm looking for. It seems hit or miss on all the sites I've seen so far. Anyone have any thoughts on major makers, or know of links to similar information? Thanks.
Common wisdom on major makers?
- Thread starter MasonMcD
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Don't want Much Do You!
Mason, Its nice to dream. Unfortunately, such a source does not exist that I am aware of. It would be nice if we had access to the kind of info available for autos. I suppose there isn't much profit motive in collecting that kind of data for sailing yachts. If you cull out the boats that you can't afford, the one s yo just don't like and the ones that don't meet your needs; You could begin to collect data such as resale value, etc. Good Luck and if you find the magic source, share it with us. Jon
Mason, Its nice to dream. Unfortunately, such a source does not exist that I am aware of. It would be nice if we had access to the kind of info available for autos. I suppose there isn't much profit motive in collecting that kind of data for sailing yachts. If you cull out the boats that you can't afford, the one s yo just don't like and the ones that don't meet your needs; You could begin to collect data such as resale value, etc. Good Luck and if you find the magic source, share it with us. Jon
Boat Reviews
When you become a little more focussed, log on to www.practical-sailor.com/boatreviews. Over 150 boat reviews are available, each costing $14.95 (hence, the need to be a little more focussed!)
When you become a little more focussed, log on to www.practical-sailor.com/boatreviews. Over 150 boat reviews are available, each costing $14.95 (hence, the need to be a little more focussed!)
one mans floor is another mans ceiling
What your asking for is almost imposable because of the fact that everyones needs are different. I personally do a lot of open ocean cruising where a Hunter or a Catalina, in my view would be out of the question and I would never concider buying one, but that new 42 foot hunter sure is a pretty boat. and not bad if your sailing in protected waters. and on the same note, I've had hard core cruisers stick thier nose up at me for using a First 42 as a cruising boat.. until I run off and leave them when an aproaching storm is comming upon us.. for myself, the problems I have are of no concern when I know My boat will get me out of trouble.. The only way to check them out is to go out and use use one.. until you find something you dont like.. or you hear bad stories you cant put up with.. a good example, the lights in my boat are those strange little dubble ended suckers that keep burning out.. been 65 feet up my mast a couple times to replace it.. next time up, I'll put a diode light in and dump that old style.. but I sure love the way my boat sails. for someone not buying a boat like mine because of the problem with the lights would be making a big mistake..
What your asking for is almost imposable because of the fact that everyones needs are different. I personally do a lot of open ocean cruising where a Hunter or a Catalina, in my view would be out of the question and I would never concider buying one, but that new 42 foot hunter sure is a pretty boat. and not bad if your sailing in protected waters. and on the same note, I've had hard core cruisers stick thier nose up at me for using a First 42 as a cruising boat.. until I run off and leave them when an aproaching storm is comming upon us.. for myself, the problems I have are of no concern when I know My boat will get me out of trouble.. The only way to check them out is to go out and use use one.. until you find something you dont like.. or you hear bad stories you cant put up with.. a good example, the lights in my boat are those strange little dubble ended suckers that keep burning out.. been 65 feet up my mast a couple times to replace it.. next time up, I'll put a diode light in and dump that old style.. but I sure love the way my boat sails. for someone not buying a boat like mine because of the problem with the lights would be making a big mistake..
Thanks for that link
I'll check it out. Initially, I was pretty focused. We are looking to completely replace the house with a liveaboard, and have two kids we would homeschool, so we needed a larger boat with a bit more of the creature comforts, and "assistive" technologies like furling main and genoa. We likely wouldn't do much blue water, so I was looking at hunter/catalina/beneteau etc. in the 43-47 range. Center cockpits and deck salon models seemed to offer the most interior bang for buck. Now I've taken a look at some catamarans, and some pilot house cruisers and I'm thoroughly confused.
I think it's the "tyranny of choice". It can paralyze you, but I'll keep reading up, and accepting any experiences you guys are willing to share. Thanks again Mason
I'll check it out. Initially, I was pretty focused. We are looking to completely replace the house with a liveaboard, and have two kids we would homeschool, so we needed a larger boat with a bit more of the creature comforts, and "assistive" technologies like furling main and genoa. We likely wouldn't do much blue water, so I was looking at hunter/catalina/beneteau etc. in the 43-47 range. Center cockpits and deck salon models seemed to offer the most interior bang for buck. Now I've taken a look at some catamarans, and some pilot house cruisers and I'm thoroughly confused.
I think it's the "tyranny of choice". It can paralyze you, but I'll keep reading up, and accepting any experiences you guys are willing to share. Thanks again MasonYou have me confused!
Mason, what do you mean by: "We likely wouldn't do much blue water, so I was looking at hunter/catalina/beneteau etc." All three of these manufacturers make boats that will take you anywhere you want to go if equipped right. If you do not plan sail your boat anywhere, why would you want to live on it? Boats are a great way to see the world but make pretty lousy houses. Not very cost effective either. Something tells me that you have not thought this thing through. What ever you decide, good luck and kindly seas to you and your family. Jon McClain
Mason, what do you mean by: "We likely wouldn't do much blue water, so I was looking at hunter/catalina/beneteau etc." All three of these manufacturers make boats that will take you anywhere you want to go if equipped right. If you do not plan sail your boat anywhere, why would you want to live on it? Boats are a great way to see the world but make pretty lousy houses. Not very cost effective either. Something tells me that you have not thought this thing through. What ever you decide, good luck and kindly seas to you and your family. Jon McClain
Ahhh, errr, ummm...
What I meant by "blue water" was that we wouldn't be headed to Australia anytime soon. I probably worded that poorly, though some of what I have run across from folks who are doing more than long term coastal and island hops seem reluctant to endorse some of the modern production cruiser models. I'm sure there's some irrational prejudice involved - due to lack of familiarity/random horror story/shifting demographics of boat owners/whatever - but I just wanted to stake out that I didn't need some specific circumnavigating design with 60 years behind it. I didn't intend it as a slight against those particular makers. My own background is in academia - marine biology and, funny enough, post-medieval nautical archaeology (out of the Texas A&M program). Boats and water and moving around from place to place to place out of duffel bags are very familiar to me, though I don't have any hands-on sailing experience, and I've only really stayed in one place for the past few years. I hope that clarifies my position. And I'm not up to speed enough to be conversant on the merits/drawbacks of any particular manufacturer/model as you can probably tell, nor am I sensitive to the politics of boats, so if I stick my foot in my mouth any more, please be gentle. Mason
What I meant by "blue water" was that we wouldn't be headed to Australia anytime soon. I probably worded that poorly, though some of what I have run across from folks who are doing more than long term coastal and island hops seem reluctant to endorse some of the modern production cruiser models. I'm sure there's some irrational prejudice involved - due to lack of familiarity/random horror story/shifting demographics of boat owners/whatever - but I just wanted to stake out that I didn't need some specific circumnavigating design with 60 years behind it. I didn't intend it as a slight against those particular makers. My own background is in academia - marine biology and, funny enough, post-medieval nautical archaeology (out of the Texas A&M program). Boats and water and moving around from place to place to place out of duffel bags are very familiar to me, though I don't have any hands-on sailing experience, and I've only really stayed in one place for the past few years. I hope that clarifies my position. And I'm not up to speed enough to be conversant on the merits/drawbacks of any particular manufacturer/model as you can probably tell, nor am I sensitive to the politics of boats, so if I stick my foot in my mouth any more, please be gentle.
MasonNow I Understand...
where you are coming from. Mass production boats today are a marvelous value. Any of the major brands are capable of providing excellent off shore performance. I, personally, am partial to Beneteaus, but that is probably because I sail one. I would not be reluctant to take any of the larger products of these manufacturers anywhere in the world if properly equipped or refitted. Contrary to some on these lists, I am concerned far more with the experience and preparedness of the crew than I am with the mfgr. of the vessel. The best vessel for your needs will come to you as you continue your research. Judging from your background, I imagine that your transition to sailing and the livaboard life style will be quick and easy. Your children will have experiences of which most can only dream. God luck and keep us aprised of your progress. As a small town midwesterner who discovered the joys of the sea rather late in life I envy you and your family. Go for it!
where you are coming from. Mass production boats today are a marvelous value. Any of the major brands are capable of providing excellent off shore performance. I, personally, am partial to Beneteaus, but that is probably because I sail one. I would not be reluctant to take any of the larger products of these manufacturers anywhere in the world if properly equipped or refitted. Contrary to some on these lists, I am concerned far more with the experience and preparedness of the crew than I am with the mfgr. of the vessel. The best vessel for your needs will come to you as you continue your research. Judging from your background, I imagine that your transition to sailing and the livaboard life style will be quick and easy. Your children will have experiences of which most can only dream. God luck and keep us aprised of your progress. As a small town midwesterner who discovered the joys of the sea rather late in life I envy you and your family. Go for it!
Good!
"Mass production boats today are a marvelous value. Any of the major brands are capable of providing excellent off shore performance." That makes me feel much better! I think for my purposes - a live-aboard for two adults and two kids, but staying coastal and the Caribbean and the odd trip to Bermuda - I'm looking at a more recent model (2000-2003) between 40 and 50 ft to get the new goodies, and layouts but still have the depreciation and break-in; if it's closer to 40, preferably a DS or CC for the extra space/headroom (I'm 6'2"). The more stuff like in-mast furling, dinghy, upgraded electronics, the better, so that probably eliminates the charters, unless it's a really good deal that I can add the necessaries myself. Maybe add some solar panels and wind generator. I'm still up in the air about a watermaker. Most people seem to discount it, but I like the concept of anchoring and self-sufficiency. Right now, I'm partial to Beneteau, Jeanneau, and Dehler, and it seems like a buyer's market. Reading this back over, I'm sure it sounds a bit naive - the devil's in the details, right? This looks really neat for a live-aboard, though!
"Mass production boats today are a marvelous value. Any of the major brands are capable of providing excellent off shore performance." That makes me feel much better! I think for my purposes - a live-aboard for two adults and two kids, but staying coastal and the Caribbean and the odd trip to Bermuda - I'm looking at a more recent model (2000-2003) between 40 and 50 ft to get the new goodies, and layouts but still have the depreciation and break-in; if it's closer to 40, preferably a DS or CC for the extra space/headroom (I'm 6'2"). The more stuff like in-mast furling, dinghy, upgraded electronics, the better, so that probably eliminates the charters, unless it's a really good deal that I can add the necessaries myself. Maybe add some solar panels and wind generator. I'm still up in the air about a watermaker. Most people seem to discount it, but I like the concept of anchoring and self-sufficiency. Right now, I'm partial to Beneteau, Jeanneau, and Dehler, and it seems like a buyer's market. Reading this back over, I'm sure it sounds a bit naive - the devil's in the details, right? This looks really neat for a live-aboard, though!
Great Looking Pilot House!
Mason, Your on the right track. Just keep looking and you will find the boat of your dreams. It is a personal decision in the end. Just a few suggestions and food for thought. 1. For production boats, about 6 or 7 years old seems to be the point where the value/depreciation curve levels out. 2. Teak is beautiful but be prepared to spend a lot time keeping it that way. Personally, the less teak the better. You will have more time to sail. 3. Keep it simple! The more gadgets that you have the more things that can go wrong, and it always happens where and when you least expect it. Unless you plan to have plenty of help, keep the rigging simple. 4. Electronics should probably be your last concern. They are rapidly improving as well as getting cheaper. 5. The initial purchase price is only a small fraction of the cost of ownership. Simple straight forward systems will go a long way to ensuring the safety of your crew keep you sailing instead of tinkering. Finding parts for even the most common components can be difficult at times. Think "maintenance" each time that you marvel at a new system on a boat. The Gatsby is a truly marvelous looking vessel but don't expect it to be a speed demon. The sailplan is far too complex for a shorthanded crew. (Would be major handful for a couple.) Light air performance will be sluggish, so plan on motoring a lot. Maintenance would be a major concern in my opinion. I must say the price appears suspiciously low. It deserves some investigation. I could go on, but you get the idea. Look at the life cycle cost, not just the initial cost. Good luck in your search. Jon
Mason, Your on the right track. Just keep looking and you will find the boat of your dreams. It is a personal decision in the end. Just a few suggestions and food for thought. 1. For production boats, about 6 or 7 years old seems to be the point where the value/depreciation curve levels out. 2. Teak is beautiful but be prepared to spend a lot time keeping it that way. Personally, the less teak the better. You will have more time to sail. 3. Keep it simple! The more gadgets that you have the more things that can go wrong, and it always happens where and when you least expect it. Unless you plan to have plenty of help, keep the rigging simple. 4. Electronics should probably be your last concern. They are rapidly improving as well as getting cheaper. 5. The initial purchase price is only a small fraction of the cost of ownership. Simple straight forward systems will go a long way to ensuring the safety of your crew keep you sailing instead of tinkering. Finding parts for even the most common components can be difficult at times. Think "maintenance" each time that you marvel at a new system on a boat. The Gatsby is a truly marvelous looking vessel but don't expect it to be a speed demon. The sailplan is far too complex for a shorthanded crew. (Would be major handful for a couple.) Light air performance will be sluggish, so plan on motoring a lot. Maintenance would be a major concern in my opinion. I must say the price appears suspiciously low. It deserves some investigation. I could go on, but you get the idea. Look at the life cycle cost, not just the initial cost. Good luck in your search. Jon
Cruising add-ons from base model?
Jon, What, in your opinion (or anyone else's) would be the required items - upgrades or standard - for a long-term live-aboard cruiser? I'm not necessarily looking for "nice to have" features like a watermaker or wind generator, but perhaps from a cost/benefit perspective, what would a beginning cruiser be wise not to scrimp on? I know some crazy guy probably crossed the Atlantic in a kayak or something, but I'm looking for some relatively mainstream features. A specific anchor style? Upgraded winches? Do I need to be on the lookout for sub-par furlers or other hardware? A/C? or just fans? Heat? Central, or space heater? What impact might those have on batteries? That sort of stuff. It doesn't have to be comprehensive, just in your experience or opinion. Thanks in advance! Mason
Jon, What, in your opinion (or anyone else's) would be the required items - upgrades or standard - for a long-term live-aboard cruiser? I'm not necessarily looking for "nice to have" features like a watermaker or wind generator, but perhaps from a cost/benefit perspective, what would a beginning cruiser be wise not to scrimp on? I know some crazy guy probably crossed the Atlantic in a kayak or something, but I'm looking for some relatively mainstream features. A specific anchor style? Upgraded winches? Do I need to be on the lookout for sub-par furlers or other hardware? A/C? or just fans? Heat? Central, or space heater? What impact might those have on batteries? That sort of stuff. It doesn't have to be comprehensive, just in your experience or opinion. Thanks in advance! Mason
cruising add-ons
Mason, a lot of what you are going to add is dependent on where you are intending to cruise. I would defintely start with up-graded winches and a strong electric windlass. Most cruisers have at least three anchors, a CQR, Fortress, Bruce or some combination. At least one, if not two, have all chain rodes especially if you are cruising the Caribbean. I would get a watermaker. Some of the ones out there today do not draw that heavily on your battery system. I don't like wind generators because of the noise and it is one more thing to maintain. A couple of good solar panels will help keep the battery system up so you won't have to run the engine as much. If you don't want AC you will need a number of fans. I installed 5 Hella turbo fans on my 361 the year before last and they are great. I guess these ideas will give you a place to start. Good luck Charlie
Mason, a lot of what you are going to add is dependent on where you are intending to cruise. I would defintely start with up-graded winches and a strong electric windlass. Most cruisers have at least three anchors, a CQR, Fortress, Bruce or some combination. At least one, if not two, have all chain rodes especially if you are cruising the Caribbean. I would get a watermaker. Some of the ones out there today do not draw that heavily on your battery system. I don't like wind generators because of the noise and it is one more thing to maintain. A couple of good solar panels will help keep the battery system up so you won't have to run the engine as much. If you don't want AC you will need a number of fans. I installed 5 Hella turbo fans on my 361 the year before last and they are great. I guess these ideas will give you a place to start. Good luck Charlie
Cruising Add-ons!
Mason, There are volumes written on this subject, and there are numerous factors that may influence your personal list. Put simply, safety should be first priority. Second is a cost/benefit judgement and third would be enhancement of quality of life. With each item or system you consider, make the hard judgements about priorities. May I suggest that you visit you neighborhood used book store and pick up books related to cruising and boat safety. You will quickly develop your own short list, and more importantly, you will begin to develop a methodology that will help you make good judgements. Jon McClain
Mason, There are volumes written on this subject, and there are numerous factors that may influence your personal list. Put simply, safety should be first priority. Second is a cost/benefit judgement and third would be enhancement of quality of life. With each item or system you consider, make the hard judgements about priorities. May I suggest that you visit you neighborhood used book store and pick up books related to cruising and boat safety. You will quickly develop your own short list, and more importantly, you will begin to develop a methodology that will help you make good judgements. Jon McClain
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