Commissioning at dealership

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GreggL

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Mar 1, 2012
101
Hunter e33 New Rochelle, NY
It seems pretty straightforward to me; get the boat ready, mast stepped, stuff inspected, etc... But is there a general guideline as to what really happens during this process and what you get for your money? My commissioning bill was quite expensive, almost 6k and now I'm having issues where it seems that my engine was misaligned during installation. Is this checked/inspected during commissioning normally? Do I have any recourse? Thanks!
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,455
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
They should have checked the alignment once the boat was in the water but it's "expected" that would have been done at the factory. It may seem like a lot of money but in fact it is a lot of work. Nigel Calder wrote an articles a few years ago after doing his own commissioning and his message was "don't try this at home".
 
Dec 19, 2006
5,832
Hunter 36 Punta Gorda
Dealer

Everything should be installed at the factory to specks and than the dealer is suppose to make sure and fix anything not properly working and if above the normal fixers than the dealer works that out with Hunter.
My question is are you saying on top of the price of the boat that you had to pay the 6K more to the dealer.
When I ordered my boat the price was one price at the dealer when we ordered it with all extra options added at the time and and a final price on delivery to me and that was the final price I paid and no dealer cost added at the time and just a final price no extra charges unless I added any thing over the final agreed price.
Are you saying you pay extra chargers for dealer cost on top of the boat agreed price.
Nick
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,455
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
Everything should be installed at the factory to specks and than the dealer is suppose to make sure and fix anything not properly working and if above the normal fixers than the dealer works that out with Hunter.
My question is are you saying on top of the price of the boat that you had to pay the 6K more to the dealer.
When I ordered my boat the price was one price at the dealer when we ordered it with all extra options added at the time and and a final price on delivery to me and that was the final price I paid and no dealer cost added at the time and just a final price no extra charges unless I added any thing over the final agreed price.
Are you saying you pay extra chargers for dealer cost on top of the boat agreed price.
Nick
Nick
some dealers bury the commissioning in the sale price
 
Dec 19, 2006
5,832
Hunter 36 Punta Gorda
2 Hunters

I have purchased 2 new Hunters and we all know that there is dealer cost and Hunter has cost building a boat but but when buying 2 hunter and have also purchased other boats and cars and trucks and RV and always have asked for final cost on paper before agreeing to buying,my Hunter dealer did not own the marina and they both did the work on my boat but one final price on the sales receipt.
Just purchased 2 new honda's and asked for the final cost key in hand out the door.
I am just wondering how the deal went down and know from past posting from Gregg that he is having a bad time with his boat from this dealer.
Nick
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
I have never heard about paying for commissioning on a new boat. I was under the impression that the factory allowed the dealers "$xxxx.xx" in the price for a boat. As I remember it was about $10k for a H'356.

The things that they may charge you for are the extras.
 

GreggL

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Mar 1, 2012
101
Hunter e33 New Rochelle, NY
Thanks guys. My commissioning bill was an item on the final bill of sale. It was specified as freight and commissioning and totaled 6k.

From what I understand they are supposed to make the necessary checks, it seems this was not done. Long story short a misaligned engine into the sail drive caused a crack in the transmission bell housing. ZF is blaming installation, hunter is bankrupt and my dealership isn't touching the subject when we question him.

Tonight's?

Trying to figure out if these inspections are required by the dealer to do, etc...
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
When did you purchase this boat? Hunter is NOT bankrupt but they have been through bankruptcy and are back in business.

Have you actually spoke with the factory?
 

GreggL

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Mar 1, 2012
101
Hunter e33 New Rochelle, NY
When did you purchase this boat? Hunter is NOT bankrupt but they have been through bankruptcy and are back in business.

Have you actually spoke with the factory?
Purchased it in February, then they went bankrupt and I lost my warranty. Spoke with them directly, they're not interested in helping customers of the "old" brand out. Most ridiculous customer service but that's besides the point.
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,455
-na -NA Anywhere USA
Although Hunter went bankrupt, the new owner having bought Hunter thru banruptcy court does not buy any past liability. Thus in a sense warranty is gone but generally Hunter has worked with people long after the warranty ran out. I know there is more to this story than what all of us know. Why did this thread not start with all the information as it would sound like an issue with the engine manufacturer. Again not all is being told.

When you look at the commissioning and freight, what most folks do not know freight is costly. I know in the past when a dealer, I paid around $2,500 to get a 33 up to North Carolina and if going to New York, it is alot more not to mention the outrageous tolls the truckers have to pay once leaving Maryland on I-95. Then you have all the expenses of employees, off loading, painting as some include it, going thru the boat ensuring all is working, add ons and the freebies thrown in and finally someone's cost to put the boat in. By the time and freight and commissioning costs are calculated, they equal to or can be greater than the price charged.

In additon, do not forget about all the overhead to include rent/note if purchasing, insurance, workman's comp, employement commission fees, taxes, power and water, maintenance fees, payroll (employers also pay into ssi for the employees) and so forth. When you look at the overall profit margin from the dealer perspective, it is not that much and most dealers work hard. What about the maintenance on the boats following the delivery. Does the dealer get fully paid back and the answer is a resounding no. I could keep on but many tend to forget about the reality of a dealership what they have to go thru.

In the past when a customer had an issue was honest particualy out of warranty on a new boat or in my case, I took care of that customer. I went over brokerage repariing items on the brokered boats even though most of the time I did not recoup those costs, basically, I took care of my customers and it is called good will. That too cost me money but it was worth it. In a few cases when the customer was not nice or not talking the truth, well I acted accordingly for example when the warranty was up, no more free service. I recall once being told never runniing aground but damages were questionable. Prior to the warranty period ending, I saw on one boat where the keel seperated, coral embedded and sever damage to the rudder and I looked at the customer and said, never ran aground with a question mark.

I have had many come back to purchase and two who became good friends arre Jim Seamans and Rick Burch. The hardest when negoitiating price in my tenure of selling boats was with Rick and I would come home and tell my wife but above in the end, Rick is a dear friend. As for Jim Seamans, well that is another story while he is in the Bahamas sailing which I am jealous and he needs to walk the plank. Ha! Jim and Joan are good friends of mine as well.

Like I said, there is more than I know but frankly I will stay out of it but you should know from a former dealer what we go thru as well.

crazy dave condon
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,052
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Dave, perhaps you're not aware of gregg's trials & tribulations with his boat & his dealership. You can go back and read his prior posts, he's described his issues quite clearly over the course of the past six months or more.

He's getting screwed if what he's telling us is true, and I/we have no reason to dispute any of it.
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,099
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
If the bell housing on the engine is cracked where it is attached to the saildrive input flange, that would have to have been done by whoever bolted those together. usually, that would not have been done by Hunter nor the dealer.. The saildrive unit most likely would have been assembled by Yanmar or one of their agents. To crack it would take something like tightening the bolts with the input flange misaligned with the bellhousing, or a very bad machine cut on the fit between the two parts.. If either was the case, the input shaft into the saildrive gearbox may have been bent as well.. Hunter would have gotten the unit already assembled and would not have (would have no reason to have) messed with the connection between engine and gearbox. Yanmar/ZF should be responsible for this if it is as portrayed. Hunter would have taken the complete, assembled unit and lowered it into the hull hole .. attached the 3 rubber engine mounts then the diaphragm, then they are done.. There is no "Alignment" as there would be on a normal sailboat. Dropping the engine onto the bellhousing before assembly to the saildrive is another way to have cracked it.. Neither Hunter nor your dealer is responsible from what the stated symptom is. Typically, the purchase contract specifies that sub assemblies are warren-teed by the sub assembly manufacturer .. things like winches, for instance .. or the VHF radio.. Hunter may help in cases like that but most likely they aren't compelled to.. It helps to have a good dealer on your side.
 

GreggL

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Mar 1, 2012
101
Hunter e33 New Rochelle, NY
Thanks everyone!

The report from ZF stated that the engine was mounted higher on the back end by about 29mm which was the cause. Does their excuse hold water? Any ideas on my next step here?
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,099
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
I don't think their excuse is valid from what I know, Greg.. The front mounts and the back mounts have a lot of rubber between the upper and lowers.. 29mm is just a smidge over an inch (about 1 1/8") I am guessing that the distance from the front mounts to the aft mount is about 24".. so that is an angular displacement of 2.7degrees.. (ballpark numbers) The Yanmar rubber mounts can absorb this without hitting metal-to-metal.. the mounts cannot generate enough stiffness to have cracked the housing..
If this were a normal engine and shaft drive, that 29mm would be excessive and could have caused a lot of damage but I still don't think it would have broken the housing.. The shaft, strut, and couplings could have been damaged.. I think the power unit vendor is thinking "standard drive" and not "sail drive".. or he is using that as a confusing/delaying tactic .. A friendly machinery engineer could verify and do some math to show the forces involved.. Even if ya had to find a local consultant guy and offer a few beers, I don't think he'd have a problem showing that the misalignment quoted could not have broken the housing..
 
Dec 19, 2006
5,832
Hunter 36 Punta Gorda
Agree

I agree with Crazy Dave and have seen boat dealers from hell and dealers come and go like my dealer who was fantastic and I have been told no longer selling boats and he sold more than just Hunters.
All the things Dave said trying to sell boats and keep cuustomers happy is way too hard a job for sure and I did not go into owner owned business for my self a long time ago and just work for some one and get a pension,most of those dealers work very long hours with out getting paid for all the hard work needed.
I saw when purchasing my first Hunter and the salesman screwed up the pricing ii my favor and than tried screwing me but the dealer owner said no and made good on the promised equipment and eveen helped with warranty work with Hunter,I guess I was very lucky with both times buying 2 Hunters or maybe we all worked together doing the right thing and special thanks to Hunter for always doing the right thing for all us Hunter owners who also do the right thing.
Nick
 

GreggL

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Mar 1, 2012
101
Hunter e33 New Rochelle, NY
I don't think their excuse is valid from what I know, Greg.. The front mounts and the back mounts have a lot of rubber between the upper and lowers.. 29mm is just a smidge over an inch (about 1 1/8") I am guessing that the distance from the front mounts to the aft mount is about 24".. so that is an angular displacement of 2.7degrees.. (ballpark numbers) The Yanmar rubber mounts can absorb this without hitting metal-to-metal.. the mounts cannot generate enough stiffness to have cracked the housing..
If this were a normal engine and shaft drive, that 29mm would be excessive and could have caused a lot of damage but I still don't think it would have broken the housing.. The shaft, strut, and couplings could have been damaged.. I think the power unit vendor is thinking "standard drive" and not "sail drive".. or he is using that as a confusing/delaying tactic .. A friendly machinery engineer could verify and do some math to show the forces involved.. Even if ya had to find a local consultant guy and offer a few beers, I don't think he'd have a problem showing that the misalignment quoted could not have broken the housing..
Alrighty then, guess ill be sending them a reply to their report. Will let you all know how it goes.
Thanks again for the help!
 
Jun 2, 2011
347
Hunter H33 Port Credit Harbour, ON.
Alrighty then, guess ill be sending them a reply to their report. Will let you all know how it goes.
Thanks again for the help!
Hi Gregg,

Sorry to hear about your difficulties. Please allow me to comment.

ZF will have some very specific installation specifications including the allowable installation alignment. If ZF has checked it and reported that it is not within their specifications you probably don't have a claim against ZF. I am not sure who is responsible for the alignment but obviously someone is and it is not you.

If I were in your situation I would claim the damage to my insurance company and use their resources to have the issue rectified. I don't say this lightly because I am not a proponent of having issues claimed through insurance. The reason I suggest this in your case is based on the history that you have recorded here. Insurance companies have much greater resources to recover monies payed out in a claim than the average individual. At the very least it may be worth speaking to them. You can then decide what is best for you.

All the best.
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,099
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
I agree, Jake.. but if it can be shown by real analysis that the specification has no bearing on the failure, the company sometimes will acquiesce.. It depends on how persistent you are and how accurate your calculations and measurements are. One of the keys is to get to talk to their engineering folks and to have pictures and all of the facts in hand... and be ready for a meaningful and very detailed discussion.. Think of the rigid saildrive unit as being supported on a base with the shape of a horizontal "A" the point of the A is the aft single point rubber mount. The two legs of the A are the mounts forward,on each side of the engine.. Consider the point of the horizontal A being lifted slightly. What happens is that the drive leg tilts aft a little in the diaphragm, and the front engine mounts rotate forward slightly on the rubber cushions.. The amount of extra force transmitted through the bell housing as a result of the tilt (as described) will be minuscule compared to the same force on a "correctly" mounted drive unit. It will be less than the forces generated while pounding into big waves with the engine running.. and certainly less than required to crack a belhousing..
 
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Sep 20, 2006
2,952
Hunter 33 Georgian Bay, Ontario, Canada
Did you get any pics of the cracked housing? I'm assuming the boat is out of the water for all this work.
 

GreggL

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Mar 1, 2012
101
Hunter e33 New Rochelle, NY
Yes I got photos as well as a detailed report from ZF. Can I upload it here? Is that okay to do?
 
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