College of nautical knowledge?

[Ron/KA5HZV]

Earl

Earl... You make a good argument FOR licensing. No one is advocating new rules here. What we would like is to make sure the people on the water know the rules, that are in place now. Too many people buy a boat (and a keg as you mentioned) and head for the the lake, bay or river. There is no incentive for learning anything short of how to make the dang thing go forward. Ask any commercial seaman if he'd like to see the recreational boater be licensed and I can bet I know what the answer will be. Personally, I'm proud of all my licenses... I had to earn every one of them... not just buy something and yahoooooooo...... Ron

 

[Steve Schwartz]

There's a big difference between cars and boats

There's a big difference between the roads on the one hand and the waterways on the other. The State provides the roads so has the right to regulate how we use them and to license drivers, to tax us for their use, etc. The waterways for the most part are natural, not created by the State, and thus belong to all equally and naturally. Our use of them should be free and unlicensed just as they were provided to us.That we MIGHT be safer and better off with more boating regulation is insufficient to justify it. Boating is an area where we have a right to activity with only minimal interference from the government.Another important difference between roads and waterways is that the vast majority of us do not need to go on the waterways. Boating is a luxury for most of us. On the other hand we need to travel the roads to get to school, to work, the store and back home again. People who feel unsafe on the water have the option of staying on land. They do not realistically have the option of staying off the roads.

 

[Joe]

Steve you would get an F.

Absurdity is the only basis of your arguments. I can see why you, and your mentally impaired cowboy fellows, may feel scared about flunking a simple safe boating exam. 1) "The State provides the roads so has the right to regulate how we use them and to license drivers, to tax us for their use, etc.": WRONG!! We the people own the roads; the State is just the manager. 2)"The waterways for the most part are natural, not created by the State, and thus belong to all equally and naturally. Our use of them should be free and unlicensed just as they were provided to us.": You are ignoring navigation aids, charting, weather predictions Coast Guard service, ramps, and engineering work on channels and water ways, that make them safer for all of us to enjoy; all of the above are financed by taxes. 3) "Boating is an area where we have a right to activity with only minimal interference from the government.": With this argument you could also conclude that flying should be un-regulated. Would you feel good having half-drunk ignorant and un-licensed pilots having the right to fly over your home?4)"Another important difference between roads and waterways is that the vast majority of us do not need to go on the waterways": Wrong again! What about professional fishermen? Safe boating is not a "luxury", it is essential for their livelihood and should be a right enjoyed by everyone.

 

[Ward]

Earl is Right

Licensing and testing aren't needed. Follow the regulations on the books. We must follow all navigation rulesWe must have all safety equipment on board and know how to use it.Most jurisdictions have drunk boating lawsIf everyone knows and follows these.... No Problem....If they don't, have part of the FINE be completing a safe boating course. Impound the boat for serious violations. Penalize the violators not the law-abiding individual who took the time to learn to do it right.Ward

 

[Ron/KA5HZV]

Steve

I never knew the government built the air and so has a right to regulate how airplanes are used.. Hmmm.. interesting. If I wasn't convinced we needed boating licenses before, your post pushed me over the edge....

 

[Steve Schwartz]

What about the air?

Of course, the State has built the airports. As long as the planes stayed in the air and didn't land or take off from State provided airports they could remain relatively unregulated. I suppose if the State provided all the marinas, it would garner more right of regulation. But we could still anchor out.... Can airplanes do that?Another relevant factor is that airplanes endanger not just their pilots and other flyers but those on the ground. How often do boats crash into buildings or people off the water? (Although I think I once saw a movie about a cruise ship that crashed into a building.) Boaters are unlikely to endanger anyone other than themselves and those on the water.Like I said before, if you think that boats and the waterways are unsafe, then stay on the land.

 

[Ron/KA5HZV]

Steve..Steve...Steve...Steve...Steve

You are way out there my friend. What about the private pilot who flys from his own runway?? Guys like you scare me wherever you are. You don't have the right to endanger other people just because you say so. It's always the people who can't muster up who complain the loudest about their rights. I suppose you have the right to smoke cigarettes in public places, too..right? You don't have the right to do anything when it puts someone elses rights at risk....As far as anyone staying off the water, let me know when you are out there and I'd be more than happy to stay out of your way.. In the mean time, try reading a book...

 

[SailboatOwners.com]

Final results

Final results for a heated Quick Quiz ending 11/3/2002:To improve boating safety I would be in favor of:44% No change from the way it is now32% Both licensing and safety inspections22% Skipper's licensing process w/ on- and off-water courses03% Mandatory annual inspections

 

[No Doz]

Wheeevw..............

Thanks for all the input.I wonder if the Mississippi IS the dividing line between right and left coasts?Sure seems that way.More boats, more "need" for regulation.More "elbow room" less need.When the War Breaks Out in Canada, you'll know where to find me.

 

[Bill]

Steve Once again

Steve, Once again your arguments are without basis, the goventment does not own all the airports, there are privately owned airports and many farms have landing strips on them. We also land aircraft on waterways, I would venture to guess that many of the folks in alska use non-government sponsored landing areas more than public airports. There are other uses of waterways besides boat including swimming, and there is protection of our natural resources which includes laws (both national and intenational) tha people need to worry about (think about manatee in Florida or whale watching in coastal areas. Safety is important to the good of all people in all areas, air, sea and land. They all effect everyones life (the sea provides us with food through commercial fisherman, and other products through commercial vessals) It is just as important as our air and seaways.Bill

 

[Steve Schwartz]

Ron...Ron...Ron...Ron...

I absolutely agree that no one has the right to endanger anyone else and no one has the right to interfere with other people's rights. I never suggested anything different than that. Our recreational activities such as skiing, hiking, mountain climbing, boating, etc. involve risk from the elements and from other people. The question is about the role of GOVERNMENT in protecting us. When we freely undertake these activities we incur a certain amount of risk. I argued that the govenment's role in addressing that risk is different in recreational activities on the water than it is in protecting us on the roads.

 

[Tom]

Joe and Steve, not commenting on who's right or

wrong. But one clarification is that most all states view driving a car a "privilege" and not a right.If you don't think that is true, then just try breaking all of the Motor Vehicle laws over and over. They will suspend your license and if you refuse to stop driving then you will go to jail.....I'm not trying to say I agree or disagree with boat licences, like we have for cars. In fact I would like less intrusion into my boating. But the flip side of the coin is "Where in H**L are the authorities when some 'idiot' does something to endanger my boat or other stupid thing on the water to ruin my boating"

 

[John Nantz]

"Privilege" or "Right"?

One of the gripes I have with the proposals for marine licensing is the government is not enforcing the laws they currently have on the books. Hence, since existing laws are not being properly enforced why should we be impacted with another bureaucratic red-tape item which is only going to cost us more money AND which will be diverted from marine/boat needs to somewhere else?Currently some of the marine fuel taxes, at least in Washington (not little Washington), are being diverted away from marine support and towards other transportation expenses. Ditto for boat property taxes, boat licenses, etc.Secondly, it was mentioned that a car driver’s license is a "privilege". Well, I don't know how many times I've seen the report of an accident where the driver of the offending car was driving without a license or with a suspended license. Not only that but sometimes they have a rap sheet a mile long. How is this possible? It happens all the time. It seems a lot of people feel that driving is a "right" and not a "privilege".Seattle is currently granting "amnesty" to people with parking tickets - if they pay their bill the fines will be forgiven! Some of these people have HUNDREDS of parking tickets. How can they get away with this? Because of very lax enforcement.Locally the Sheriff doesn't want to ticket speeders. Instead he wants to install speed bumps! Who is getting punished here? Also, maybe the cost of the speed bumps comes out of the Transportation Dept budget? Subsidized in part by boat taxes!!It is very doubtful that in the current law enforcement environment that a marine operators license will do anything to improve safety. The jails are over-booked already and only serious offenders spend time. Therefor, as usual, the good guys will obey the laws and the bad guys will do what they've always done. Only when the laws are enforced and the bad guys are taken to task will safety improve.

 

[Jay Hill]

America, Gotta Love It!

Ah, yes, the beauty of variety and the freedom to express opinions; makes me feel all tingly all over. Sorta reminds me of my favorite phrase: "To each his own."Best of luck to everyone on the water, the roads, the skies, the parking lots, and the grocery stores. You know, we really ought to get together and demand that those little ol' ladies get a license to drive those big shopping carts. Why, the other day, one nearly caused the milk in my shopping cart to be tipped over when she blatantly ran her cart right into mine; the gall of some shopping cart drivers! On the other hand, if the accident had been really bad, it still would've only been spilled milk; no life, limb, or major property damage involved. To me, that's the difference in where we need regulations and where we don't...."but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."Respectfully,JH

 

[LaDonna Bubak - CatalinaOwners.com]

I'm official

Oregon recently enacted (and is beginning to enforce) required boater education and "certification". A few years back, I took the totally voluntary State Marine Board good seamanship exam. It was in the back of their little freebie booklet and was easy as pie. Mailed it in & I got a little piece of paper to frame (ha!). Apparently, that took care of me for this new certification!For the record, I don't think certification is a bad thing - at least what/how Oregon is requiring it. It's very basic stuff and they're targeting young powerboaters first (especially PWC owners). Old sailors are last on the list and will be required to be certified in something like 2007!! Yes, its sad that the government feels it necessary to regulate this but its the old thing about one bad apple.... If people would educate themselves, there would be fewer problems and the government wouldn't notice. Unfortunately, many folks think just owning a boat is enough knowledge. LaDonna

 

[Joe]

Tom,

It is precisely because enforcing the laws in the ocean is so difficult that some kind of basic knowledge should be required before boaters take the helm. I would venture to say that the lack of registration and licensing makes enforcing laws and going after offenders currently impractical, if not impossible. Are Tom and the anti-regulators suggesting that we should spend more tax payer's money to increase law enforcing officers in our coasts?

 

[Rick]

Sailing is nearest to true freedom...

As much as I would like to see more knowledge and sense on the high seas, I can't see how government intervention will help. Bad sailors will break their boat or sink (God save them). Maybe they will learn from that. My wallet's already too full of identity cards and licenses. Don't want another one.

 

[Rick]

Are you nuts?

Fund enforcement from fines?!? Have you ever been subjected to a speed trap when driving thru a small town on a secondary road. Don't you know that speed radar manufacturers sell their products to local PDs on the merits of revenue generation? Don't give the government more control. They have enough already. No... I'm not some bleeding heart or libertarian. I just want to sail free.

 

[Tom]

Oops, Good point Rick

But how do we correct these "numbnuts" on the water?