I think deserves its own thread, so I'll try to "move it" from "ReFinancing". I don't disagree with Peggie's statements about what goes on in Financing. However, I think that a house closing is more complicated than a boat purchase, normally. For example, a title search and title policy for home is complicated. The closing for house normally involves items not associated with a boat sale, such as pro-rated property taxes, assessments, utility payments, etc. The cost for an "Abstract of Title" from the Coast Guard, showing current owners, liens, correct name, etc., is only $25.00 and is readily done by the average individual. The Coast Guard checks the info and sends it to you. Quite a difference from a title search on real property where the Registrar of Deeds, etc., have to be checked. Now, Peggy is probably right, most financial lending institutions will probably not let the average individual do much of this themselves. After all, they are in the business of making money. I'm betting that they really can't justify the expense, when you look at the real costs and time involved. A couple of Fed-Ex's and 30 minutes to fill out the forms on a computer, with the forms provided by the Coast Guard should not add up to the $300 difference! But they won't want to give up the revenue! Isn't captialism great. But, if you can get them to accept it, or if you are documenting your own boat, and don't need to record liens, you can save a lot of money, and learn more about the process. So, my advice is look at the Coast Guard site, and see if you can do some or all of it yourself. I have decided to develop a guide to self-documentation and will post it on my web pages at www.ExploreScuba.com, under the reference section. I have also included the link to the Coast Guard site there, for the documents, fees, instructions, etc. I'm curious if someone (me?) started a "Documentation Company", and offered the service via the internet, a buyer could get his financial institution to use it, and save a lot in the process. Ron PS: The cost for a previously documented boat to be re-documented for a new buyer, is $84 plus $8.00 for the Bill of Sale attachment, and $4.00 for any lien. If a brand new boat, the $84 becomes $133, plus Bill of Sale, etc.
- Status
Re-documentation
I'm about to re-document my boat after a one-owner break in the line of ownership. I have been assured that this is a quick, inexpensive and painless process. We'll see...TBC Cheers, Bob
I'm about to re-document my boat after a one-owner break in the line of ownership. I have been assured that this is a quick, inexpensive and painless process. We'll see...TBC Cheers, Bob
I think you could
There are lots of brokers who also offer this service. They charge an arm & a leg for it and the banks seem to accept theirs. I think the main thing is to be a Notary Public. I'd check into it - call a couple banks, etc. LaDonna
There are lots of brokers who also offer this service. They charge an arm & a leg for it and the banks seem to accept theirs. I think the main thing is to be a Notary Public. I'd check into it - call a couple banks, etc. LaDonna
Documentation cost
When I bought my new boat last year, the bank told me the documentation would cost $450, and be handled by a marine titling company. This company specialized in all forms of legal paperwork concerning boats and loans, basically doing the legwork and coordination between the dealer, the bank, and the Coast Guard. I had looked at the Coast Guard website and figured I was capable, and could save some money by handling the documentation of the boat myself. I was amused by the bank's response when I mentioned my plan to them. I was told politely, but firmly "Oh, no no no (you silly boy), it will be taken care of by the titling company. I did not protest because I realized that the bank just wanted to insure that the process went smoothly, and be handled by professionals. They had no way to know if I would forget to dot an "I", or cross a "T", and put a snag in the whole transaction. Had I insisted on doing it myself and something did go wrong, I would have added a lot of aggravation to a process that was already causing me a bit of stress. I also would have reinforced their "silly boy" inference. It was kind of pricey, but the titling company did a very good job of pulling every thing together. The bank didn't care about the cost, and the titling company knew that the bank was insisting that I use them, so I was kind of caught in the middle. If I have need of any future documentation changes with this boat though, I will probably do it myself now that the bank is fat, dumb, and happy. I think the key question Ron raised would be "is there a cheaper way to handle documentation that would be acceptable to the banks?"
When I bought my new boat last year, the bank told me the documentation would cost $450, and be handled by a marine titling company. This company specialized in all forms of legal paperwork concerning boats and loans, basically doing the legwork and coordination between the dealer, the bank, and the Coast Guard. I had looked at the Coast Guard website and figured I was capable, and could save some money by handling the documentation of the boat myself. I was amused by the bank's response when I mentioned my plan to them. I was told politely, but firmly "Oh, no no no (you silly boy), it will be taken care of by the titling company. I did not protest because I realized that the bank just wanted to insure that the process went smoothly, and be handled by professionals. They had no way to know if I would forget to dot an "I", or cross a "T", and put a snag in the whole transaction. Had I insisted on doing it myself and something did go wrong, I would have added a lot of aggravation to a process that was already causing me a bit of stress. I also would have reinforced their "silly boy" inference. It was kind of pricey, but the titling company did a very good job of pulling every thing together. The bank didn't care about the cost, and the titling company knew that the bank was insisting that I use them, so I was kind of caught in the middle. If I have need of any future documentation changes with this boat though, I will probably do it myself now that the bank is fat, dumb, and happy. I think the key question Ron raised would be "is there a cheaper way to handle documentation that would be acceptable to the banks?"
Ron, the home mortgage analogy flies...
Granted, there's a lot more to do to process a home mortgage...but show me any home mortage with closing costs that aren't at least double the marine lenders' "documentation charge." In fact, just run a few as a percentage of the loan amount (don't include pts, just closing costs), and I THINK you'll find that marine lenders charge FAR less than any other mortgage lenders. The only ones that don't charge closing costs are the ones who are trying to get you to refinance or take a second...and what THEY don't tell you is that they'll still charge you a fee to pull a credit report and survey your lot--and that fee is STILL much higher than any marine lender charges for a new loan. Been there, done that...homes AND boats, several times.
Granted, there's a lot more to do to process a home mortgage...but show me any home mortage with closing costs that aren't at least double the marine lenders' "documentation charge." In fact, just run a few as a percentage of the loan amount (don't include pts, just closing costs), and I THINK you'll find that marine lenders charge FAR less than any other mortgage lenders. The only ones that don't charge closing costs are the ones who are trying to get you to refinance or take a second...and what THEY don't tell you is that they'll still charge you a fee to pull a credit report and survey your lot--and that fee is STILL much higher than any marine lender charges for a new loan. Been there, done that...homes AND boats, several times.
Jon, That's Exactly My Point
In this day of increased efficency, much of it due to the technology and the internet, it seems that a little competition might yield some savings and not decrease the guarantees afforded by proper documentation. I would estimate that it would take a competent secretary or para-legal about 30 minutes to fill out all the forms and mail them off to the Coast Guard, at most! Since the Coast Guard will reject improperly filed documents, and they maintain the record for any properly filed liens, not much can go wrong, other than a delay. So, could we set up a service, perhaps through HOW, that could compete with the traditional documentation services, and save people some money? Peggie, I don't disagree with anything you are saying about the importance of having it done right, and definately agree that house closings are much more expensive. (By the way, did you know that you can negotiate the costs of a house closing? I recently obtained a 30% discount on title search and the title search policy, by demanding it! Saved me several hundred dollars. Sounds like most boat lenders won't negotiate those charges.) So, I guess my question is as follows: If there were a service, properly licensed and registered with tax people, etc., that provided this service, could a buyer request (or demand) that the bank or lender use it, and thus save some money? What basis could the lender have for refusing? (I'm not looking for a new career, I'm a government prosecuting attorney, but I'm sure that a $100 mark-up per transaction would yield a very healthy profit). I just think a little competition might be a good thing in this area. Phil, if you are bothering with this thread, "Could HOW be used to promote such a service, or be a partner to it, if we set it up?" Thanks to all for their comments. Ron
In this day of increased efficency, much of it due to the technology and the internet, it seems that a little competition might yield some savings and not decrease the guarantees afforded by proper documentation. I would estimate that it would take a competent secretary or para-legal about 30 minutes to fill out all the forms and mail them off to the Coast Guard, at most! Since the Coast Guard will reject improperly filed documents, and they maintain the record for any properly filed liens, not much can go wrong, other than a delay. So, could we set up a service, perhaps through HOW, that could compete with the traditional documentation services, and save people some money? Peggie, I don't disagree with anything you are saying about the importance of having it done right, and definately agree that house closings are much more expensive. (By the way, did you know that you can negotiate the costs of a house closing? I recently obtained a 30% discount on title search and the title search policy, by demanding it! Saved me several hundred dollars. Sounds like most boat lenders won't negotiate those charges.) So, I guess my question is as follows: If there were a service, properly licensed and registered with tax people, etc., that provided this service, could a buyer request (or demand) that the bank or lender use it, and thus save some money? What basis could the lender have for refusing? (I'm not looking for a new career, I'm a government prosecuting attorney, but I'm sure that a $100 mark-up per transaction would yield a very healthy profit). I just think a little competition might be a good thing in this area. Phil, if you are bothering with this thread, "Could HOW be used to promote such a service, or be a partner to it, if we set it up?" Thanks to all for their comments. Ron
Redocumentation
Ten days ago I mailed all the forms to re document my 37C using the forms and instructions downloaded from the Coast Guard site after reading in Boat us how quick and easy it is to deal with this personally. I'll add to this post and tell you how long it took.
Ten days ago I mailed all the forms to re document my 37C using the forms and instructions downloaded from the Coast Guard site after reading in Boat us how quick and easy it is to deal with this personally. I'll add to this post and tell you how long it took.
Surely you don't think you're the first...
To think you can do it cheaper and still make a profit?
I've owned a business...no, it shouldn't take a secretary longer than 30 minutes to fill in the blanks on a "boilerplate" form... If you're paying her $10/hr, that's $5..plus her matching FICA, unemployment insurance, workman's comp, and the cost of any benefits you might offer. Multiply that by the number of "secretaries" you'll need. Then there's the bookkeeper you have to pay to send out the invoices...the cost of collection from those who don't think they SHOULD have to pay you (and the write-offs from those who will cost you more to collect than the fee)... The office rent, the utilities, the telephone (and if you think you can build a business without an 800#, dream on)...liability insurance (in case you screw up and get sued)...you'll have buy a bunch of computers--and the software (and if you think MS Office 2000 is expensive, you've never priced proprietary software)...and let us not forget at LEAST 6--3 going out for signature, 3 coming back signed--Fedex overnight charges per loan (2 to the buyer, 2 to the seller, 2 to the CG...and send 'em all again if anybody screws up one)...the cost of the lien/title search....and of course, you naively expect to pay yourself a decent wage to run the whole thing (don't forget your own match FICA, unemployment insurance, workmans comp and benefits). And if you work for a salary and can boost office supplies from your employers, you're REALLY gonna be in for a shock when you find out what you've been costing your company--for just a few ballpoint pens and a couple of legal pads a year. I almost died when I finally bought a copier and found out that the toner cartridge for it is $100! Your home HP Deskjet AIN'T gonna handle the volume you need to do to make a profit either. However, the lenders will still charge their own "loan origination" fees...and they're not gonna be eager to give up the portion of it they charge to CG documentation fee to you,so even if it were possible for buyers to force lenders to let 'em use an outside CG doc service, what makes you think the lenders would reduce their fees? And how many boat buyers would be willing to hire an outside company to do what their lender already includes in its fees? It's really a shame you didn't come up with this idea a year ago...you could have done it as a dot.com and made a killing with the IPO without ever even opening an office, much less ever actually hring anybody...or even processing a single application. Too late now, though...))
To think you can do it cheaper and still make a profit?
I've owned a business...no, it shouldn't take a secretary longer than 30 minutes to fill in the blanks on a "boilerplate" form... If you're paying her $10/hr, that's $5..plus her matching FICA, unemployment insurance, workman's comp, and the cost of any benefits you might offer. Multiply that by the number of "secretaries" you'll need. Then there's the bookkeeper you have to pay to send out the invoices...the cost of collection from those who don't think they SHOULD have to pay you (and the write-offs from those who will cost you more to collect than the fee)... The office rent, the utilities, the telephone (and if you think you can build a business without an 800#, dream on)...liability insurance (in case you screw up and get sued)...you'll have buy a bunch of computers--and the software (and if you think MS Office 2000 is expensive, you've never priced proprietary software)...and let us not forget at LEAST 6--3 going out for signature, 3 coming back signed--Fedex overnight charges per loan (2 to the buyer, 2 to the seller, 2 to the CG...and send 'em all again if anybody screws up one)...the cost of the lien/title search....and of course, you naively expect to pay yourself a decent wage to run the whole thing (don't forget your own match FICA, unemployment insurance, workmans comp and benefits). And if you work for a salary and can boost office supplies from your employers, you're REALLY gonna be in for a shock when you find out what you've been costing your company--for just a few ballpoint pens and a couple of legal pads a year. I almost died when I finally bought a copier and found out that the toner cartridge for it is $100! Your home HP Deskjet AIN'T gonna handle the volume you need to do to make a profit either. However, the lenders will still charge their own "loan origination" fees...and they're not gonna be eager to give up the portion of it they charge to CG documentation fee to you,so even if it were possible for buyers to force lenders to let 'em use an outside CG doc service, what makes you think the lenders would reduce their fees? And how many boat buyers would be willing to hire an outside company to do what their lender already includes in its fees? It's really a shame you didn't come up with this idea a year ago...you could have done it as a dot.com and made a killing with the IPO without ever even opening an office, much less ever actually hring anybody...or even processing a single application. Too late now, though...))Documentation
Several years ago when I purchased my current boat, I financed it through a credit union in which I am a member. They originally wanted to title the boat in the state in which I reside so they could obtain a lien on the boat's title similar to a motor vehicle lien. As the boat was already documented, I explained the protections and advantages of documentation - especially since I occasionally sail the boat in out of state waters - and ultimately plan on coastal cruising. The credit union consented to documentation and agreed to let me handle it. All of the forms and instructions were and are available from the Coast Guard Web Site. I obtained the abstract of title and was able to ascertain that I needed to obtain a release of mortgage from the seller's lender and file it with the "change -of -owner" documentation application, the bill of sale and the lender's new prefered mortgage. All in all, it was a relatively painless, easy and inexpensive process. The abstract of title and documentation filing fees, and costs of the survey were the only costs I incurred in the boat purchase/loan/lending process. There were no other loan origination fees or closing costs. In my opinion, the credit union consented to my handling the documenation for three reasons. First, they had never done if before. Second, I am an attorney and had previously handled a number of matters for the credit union so there was already a comfort and confidence level that existed. And last, but probably most important, was that I had sufficient funds in my credit union account to fully protect the credit union's interest in the event I messed up - a risk I was willing to accept. I believe that in most cases, the lender's motivation for wanting to handle the documentation itself is not so much driven by profit (although that may be a part of the equation), but rather it is more cost recovery and the need to fully protect its financial position in a proper manner and on a timely basis. A lender will normally have to advance funds to the seller before it receives the endorsed Certificate of Documentation and Bill of Sale and before it can file its preferred mortgage lien. The lender has confidence in its internal staff and their time tested procedures (and/or recourse against an outside source that the lender pays to perform the service on its behalf) that its interests will be secured. That level of confidence probably does not exist with the lender's normal borrower. If efforts are made to offer a Documentation Service through the internet, besides the costs of the abstract and documentation filing fees, the Service will need to cover its fed-ex/priority mailing costs, personnel costs (which are much more significant for a large lending institution), insurance costs (i.e. the costs to make the lender whole in the event some other lien somehow sneeks in ahead of the preferred mortgage filing) and a profit margin. I would be surprised if any other "for profit" service - or even an "at cost" service would be significantly less than what lenders are currently charging. I apologize if I have rambled on excessively, but thought I would add my insights - for whatever they are worth - to this issue. Dave s/v Compass Rose
Several years ago when I purchased my current boat, I financed it through a credit union in which I am a member. They originally wanted to title the boat in the state in which I reside so they could obtain a lien on the boat's title similar to a motor vehicle lien. As the boat was already documented, I explained the protections and advantages of documentation - especially since I occasionally sail the boat in out of state waters - and ultimately plan on coastal cruising. The credit union consented to documentation and agreed to let me handle it. All of the forms and instructions were and are available from the Coast Guard Web Site. I obtained the abstract of title and was able to ascertain that I needed to obtain a release of mortgage from the seller's lender and file it with the "change -of -owner" documentation application, the bill of sale and the lender's new prefered mortgage. All in all, it was a relatively painless, easy and inexpensive process. The abstract of title and documentation filing fees, and costs of the survey were the only costs I incurred in the boat purchase/loan/lending process. There were no other loan origination fees or closing costs. In my opinion, the credit union consented to my handling the documenation for three reasons. First, they had never done if before. Second, I am an attorney and had previously handled a number of matters for the credit union so there was already a comfort and confidence level that existed. And last, but probably most important, was that I had sufficient funds in my credit union account to fully protect the credit union's interest in the event I messed up - a risk I was willing to accept. I believe that in most cases, the lender's motivation for wanting to handle the documentation itself is not so much driven by profit (although that may be a part of the equation), but rather it is more cost recovery and the need to fully protect its financial position in a proper manner and on a timely basis. A lender will normally have to advance funds to the seller before it receives the endorsed Certificate of Documentation and Bill of Sale and before it can file its preferred mortgage lien. The lender has confidence in its internal staff and their time tested procedures (and/or recourse against an outside source that the lender pays to perform the service on its behalf) that its interests will be secured. That level of confidence probably does not exist with the lender's normal borrower. If efforts are made to offer a Documentation Service through the internet, besides the costs of the abstract and documentation filing fees, the Service will need to cover its fed-ex/priority mailing costs, personnel costs (which are much more significant for a large lending institution), insurance costs (i.e. the costs to make the lender whole in the event some other lien somehow sneeks in ahead of the preferred mortgage filing) and a profit margin. I would be surprised if any other "for profit" service - or even an "at cost" service would be significantly less than what lenders are currently charging. I apologize if I have rambled on excessively, but thought I would add my insights - for whatever they are worth - to this issue. Dave s/v Compass Rose
wRite on Peggy!
Peggy's point is right on! Add to all those cost the salary of a marketing person to call on the banks for referrals! Wouldn't you think that banks choose the doc companies like mortgage lenders choose title companies-those that get the job right at a fair price,in a very short time, and if they do screw up they get it straightened out. But if I did own a documentation company....I would advertise on this site!
Peggy's point is right on! Add to all those cost the salary of a marketing person to call on the banks for referrals! Wouldn't you think that banks choose the doc companies like mortgage lenders choose title companies-those that get the job right at a fair price,in a very short time, and if they do screw up they get it straightened out. But if I did own a documentation company....I would advertise on this site!
Documentation scams
these documentation companies are scams. Just download the applications from the web, fill them out and send them in. I've done it twice and no problem at all.
these documentation companies are scams. Just download the applications from the web, fill them out and send them in. I've done it twice and no problem at all.
Documentation time line
I just received my documentation. Total time start to finish was 20 days. The USCG even called my as I made a small error in the forms and they corrected it over the phone.
I just received my documentation. Total time start to finish was 20 days. The USCG even called my as I made a small error in the forms and they corrected it over the phone.
- Status