Hi all, My wife and I went sailing on Veteran's-Day-Thursday and had to sail with mainsail only (the Florida fall winds were sustained at 20 knots). I noticed that, when tacking, I had to bear way off the wind, when settling into the new tack, in order to get forward motion out of the hull and accelerate onto the new tack. If I tried to cheat closer to the wind (say, at a angle that would have easily worked for jib and main working together), the boat pushed sideways and incurred major leeway--- I mean enough that you could see thrust/current from centerboard side-wash on the windward side of the boat. Is there a way to counteract this/make the boat point a little high while coming about? Is my rudder not properly downhauled perhaps? I'd read that larger Hunters (the 23.5 and 240) have slight tracking problems when their rudder blades are not set down at a fairly precise angle. Also, my centerboard was let all the way down---but I daren't change that in this sort of wind??? Has anyone "played" with rudder angle/downhaul on the 170? If so, does fudging with it make a noticeable difference? How about raising the c-b a bit (or more)? By the way, any more wind Thursday and our 170 would have been all the way up on one rail (we ALMOST had to put the first reef in the sail), but my wife and I both sat on the high rail/gunwale and it was a perfect day. Great crew ballast. I'm starting to come around (used to pine for a far heavier c-b, but I'm getting the feel for her). Regards, Mike G. '99 h170
Close-hauled 170 with only the mainsail
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john12527
rudder angle
I have also had problems sailing under main only, I have had a situation where I almost could not point high enough to get back to the dock!!! After I had a reef point put in I have found that a reefed main and a jib works much better than a full main and a furled jib. I expect that furling the jib part-way is probably better still, I haven't had much time to experiment. I am told that it has to do with the balance of the boat. That if you furl the jib the main is too far back on the boat. I have been told you can cheat this a little by pulling the CB up half way, but like you, I just feel more confident with it down all the way. I have had to mess with the rudder angle a few times in very shallow water. In any wind at all the weather helm is unbearable. I feel like the darn tiller is going to snap off in my hand, and reading some posts on this forum I understand that it's really not all that unlikely! I guess my advice is to show less main and keep the jib up. I would not change the angle of the rudder, esp. not it high wind. I should probably point out that I am no expert sailer, so don't take my word as gospel. I have had a 170 for a couple of years and I am gaining confidence, and I have experience the same situation you described. Good Luck John
I have also had problems sailing under main only, I have had a situation where I almost could not point high enough to get back to the dock!!! After I had a reef point put in I have found that a reefed main and a jib works much better than a full main and a furled jib. I expect that furling the jib part-way is probably better still, I haven't had much time to experiment. I am told that it has to do with the balance of the boat. That if you furl the jib the main is too far back on the boat. I have been told you can cheat this a little by pulling the CB up half way, but like you, I just feel more confident with it down all the way. I have had to mess with the rudder angle a few times in very shallow water. In any wind at all the weather helm is unbearable. I feel like the darn tiller is going to snap off in my hand, and reading some posts on this forum I understand that it's really not all that unlikely! I guess my advice is to show less main and keep the jib up. I would not change the angle of the rudder, esp. not it high wind. I should probably point out that I am no expert sailer, so don't take my word as gospel. I have had a 170 for a couple of years and I am gaining confidence, and I have experience the same situation you described. Good Luck John
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john12527
and by the way!
Nice to see someone out there is still sailing!!!!! It was an unseasonably beautiful 50 degrees in old Ann Arbor town today. I would have been out on my boat if I had the time. It is going all the way up to 60 on Thursday, but it is also supposed to rain all day. I officially called my season over about a month ago, but it would be nice to sail in mid-November just to say I did. Wouldn't want to sail in high wind because I am guessing it would not be comfortable to dump the boat today no matter how mild the air temp is!!!! Have a nice winter!! John
Nice to see someone out there is still sailing!!!!! It was an unseasonably beautiful 50 degrees in old Ann Arbor town today. I would have been out on my boat if I had the time. It is going all the way up to 60 on Thursday, but it is also supposed to rain all day. I officially called my season over about a month ago, but it would be nice to sail in mid-November just to say I did. Wouldn't want to sail in high wind because I am guessing it would not be comfortable to dump the boat today no matter how mild the air temp is!!!! Have a nice winter!! John
Pointing/moderate wind
John, Thanks for sharing your experiences with reefing and "to use or not to use" the jib in moderate to high breezes. I like your point about reefing the main and using the full jib to keep the rig under control in higher winds. And you know, I've tried this once before and had the same problem: the helm would still overpower to the lee. In fact one time I was sailing on the St Johns River south of Jacksonville (brackish, intracoastal) on a moderate day. With a sudden puff, the boat heeled way up, so I spilled the mainsail... and spilled it, and spilled it until it was all the way to a full luff and the boat stayed up on heel and began to round off the wind, as if about to crash jibe and/or broach! Compensating the helm didn't correct this! After that I've always doused the jib and sailed main alone (either full or with the first reef in--- don't know if you caught my DOUBLE reef points pics in the photos section, but it's wild)! Perhaps I'll brave it out one day and find out that the 170 can indeed correct this leehelm with somemore coaxing. Furling the jib in part way does work great. We do do that on occassion. The small problem I cause with that is that I tend to cheat high and the jib as an obvious result begins to luff and slap (in a heavy puff, obviously), shaking the entire rig (shrouds, mast, boom, forestay- everything). I think I just need to point further off the wind and this will smooth out. Gusts sometimes cause this rig shudder even when the jib is full-- so I just need to play with it more. I did install Johnson lever tensioners to the upper shrouds (again, see pics on this forum), so this allows the rig to be set drum-tight each time I trailer the boat into the water. Like you say, you have more experience in the 170 (we got ours in February 2004), so I should give her time and practice practice. Speaking of practice, sounds like you almost snuck in a good sail up there in Michigan this week. Do let me know if you get out yet this season! My wife and I plan on going out again this weekend-- supposed to be winds E at 9 and the obligatory Florida fall day-- 78 degrees, sun, water 71 degrees. Gettin' a little nippier while launching her, but no complaints. Last month in this forum, a skipper out of Buffalo posted word that he and a buddy had gone out for a kamikaze Capsizing Mission!! Pretty nuts. I think the water was 60? or less!!!! They had suits on, but STILL-- that's pure gutts! Mike
John, Thanks for sharing your experiences with reefing and "to use or not to use" the jib in moderate to high breezes. I like your point about reefing the main and using the full jib to keep the rig under control in higher winds. And you know, I've tried this once before and had the same problem: the helm would still overpower to the lee. In fact one time I was sailing on the St Johns River south of Jacksonville (brackish, intracoastal) on a moderate day. With a sudden puff, the boat heeled way up, so I spilled the mainsail... and spilled it, and spilled it until it was all the way to a full luff and the boat stayed up on heel and began to round off the wind, as if about to crash jibe and/or broach! Compensating the helm didn't correct this! After that I've always doused the jib and sailed main alone (either full or with the first reef in--- don't know if you caught my DOUBLE reef points pics in the photos section, but it's wild)! Perhaps I'll brave it out one day and find out that the 170 can indeed correct this leehelm with somemore coaxing. Furling the jib in part way does work great. We do do that on occassion. The small problem I cause with that is that I tend to cheat high and the jib as an obvious result begins to luff and slap (in a heavy puff, obviously), shaking the entire rig (shrouds, mast, boom, forestay- everything). I think I just need to point further off the wind and this will smooth out. Gusts sometimes cause this rig shudder even when the jib is full-- so I just need to play with it more. I did install Johnson lever tensioners to the upper shrouds (again, see pics on this forum), so this allows the rig to be set drum-tight each time I trailer the boat into the water. Like you say, you have more experience in the 170 (we got ours in February 2004), so I should give her time and practice practice. Speaking of practice, sounds like you almost snuck in a good sail up there in Michigan this week. Do let me know if you get out yet this season! My wife and I plan on going out again this weekend-- supposed to be winds E at 9 and the obligatory Florida fall day-- 78 degrees, sun, water 71 degrees. Gettin' a little nippier while launching her, but no complaints. Last month in this forum, a skipper out of Buffalo posted word that he and a buddy had gone out for a kamikaze Capsizing Mission!! Pretty nuts. I think the water was 60? or less!!!! They had suits on, but STILL-- that's pure gutts! Mike
Reefing/Furlo/Centerboard
Hi John and Mike It is great to read some of the posts on the h-170. Mike, I liked some of the rigging upgrades that you did on your boat. I sail out of Long Beach, Calif., and feel very fortunate that I have a long season to sail in. I thought that I would add my thoughts to some of yours. If I am going to furlo the jib, I leave some of it out for balance. Also, the centerboard needs to raised just a bit. Moving the cb up a little also moves it back as it rotates. That will help with weather helm. And I would NEVER bring the rudder up at all except to beach as nessesary. If I reef, then, the cb must be all the way down. Also, I would furlo the jib just a bit. When you furlo the jib a little, then sheet in, what your have done is to make the foot tigher while opening up the top leach, creating twist in the jib. This will spill some wind higher up. Mike, If you don't mind, I would like some input from you on your double reef in strong winds. So far, my biggest problem has been how to balance the weight in the boat with my 220lb. English Mastiff in the cubby. (See the h-170 review in Small Craft Advisor) Danny
Hi John and Mike It is great to read some of the posts on the h-170. Mike, I liked some of the rigging upgrades that you did on your boat. I sail out of Long Beach, Calif., and feel very fortunate that I have a long season to sail in. I thought that I would add my thoughts to some of yours. If I am going to furlo the jib, I leave some of it out for balance. Also, the centerboard needs to raised just a bit. Moving the cb up a little also moves it back as it rotates. That will help with weather helm. And I would NEVER bring the rudder up at all except to beach as nessesary. If I reef, then, the cb must be all the way down. Also, I would furlo the jib just a bit. When you furlo the jib a little, then sheet in, what your have done is to make the foot tigher while opening up the top leach, creating twist in the jib. This will spill some wind higher up. Mike, If you don't mind, I would like some input from you on your double reef in strong winds. So far, my biggest problem has been how to balance the weight in the boat with my 220lb. English Mastiff in the cubby. (See the h-170 review in Small Craft Advisor) Danny
Rounding up/Center of Effort
Danny, You explain CE very well. I might have the chance to test raising the board a hair, and thus transferring CE aft, tomorrow--- it looks like our winds over here will be at 8 out of the south. And my wife might send me out solo since she has home-stuff and relaxing to do (rigging the 170 on the trailer/trailersailing) is not EVERYONE'S definition of relaxation. With only the skipper as ballast, the CE test should be exciting. Your shroud covers are a great idea. My wife eventually put gloves on last week as grabbed the shroud while hiking out--- she did indicate that the cables begin to hurt the hand after a while. In fact, these shrouds are her "life-line" when we're really moving and heeling. Great pic of your 170 from the bridge (in Small Craft Advisory)! I've often wondered how tiny our 170 looked as I waited for the opening at the Bridge of Lions/intracoastal in St. Augustine! The 26' mast is just a hair too high for some Florida bascule bridges. Mike
Danny, You explain CE very well. I might have the chance to test raising the board a hair, and thus transferring CE aft, tomorrow--- it looks like our winds over here will be at 8 out of the south. And my wife might send me out solo since she has home-stuff and relaxing to do (rigging the 170 on the trailer/trailersailing) is not EVERYONE'S definition of relaxation. With only the skipper as ballast, the CE test should be exciting. Your shroud covers are a great idea. My wife eventually put gloves on last week as grabbed the shroud while hiking out--- she did indicate that the cables begin to hurt the hand after a while. In fact, these shrouds are her "life-line" when we're really moving and heeling. Great pic of your 170 from the bridge (in Small Craft Advisory)! I've often wondered how tiny our 170 looked as I waited for the opening at the Bridge of Lions/intracoastal in St. Augustine! The 26' mast is just a hair too high for some Florida bascule bridges. Mike
Reefing/Furlo/Centerboard (3)
Thank you for the kind words. Just for that, I thought I would throw in one more photo. Danny
Thank you for the kind words. Just for that, I thought I would throw in one more photo. Danny
Main and jib/ excellent photo!
Danny, (Now here come MORE kind words) The second photo you attached is simply AWESOME! I mean, this pic could serve to tell the world what the entire class is all about. The 170 really is a fun, fast boat-- and hiking out at 10 to 15 degree heel is when she's at her best, it seems. Case in point, I did make it out for a sail today. The breeze was just rock solid at 10mph--not a single gust. I used your CE aft technique, raising the board just slightly, and re-adjusting my capsize countermeasure line (from main jam cleat base to c-b/to prevent "a slam" in case of turtle) ---Man, you were right, putting the CE aft slightly helped the boat point/track a bit higher and stiffer. The boat SEEMED more stable at least-- but maybe it was placebo effect ;o) Anyway, the sailing was some of the best I've every had in my 170, mainly because I could literally lock down the jib and main sheets, hike out and just drive (albeit both sheets were draped over the windward gunwale by my thigh and reachable in 1/10 of a second). Danny, one more question: What model year is your 170 (the side stripes indicate to me that it's a later model) and does it have the "heavier" centerboard mentioned in this forum? I may yet trade my stock '99 boat's centerboard up for the weightier one. Your view? And have you sailed a pre-heavier board 170? I sailed my cousin's 2003 this summer in Minnesota and it did seem a hair stabler. One note for upper Midwesterners and lake-sailing New Englanders who might be reading this. I counted 15 common loons on our Florida lake today while sailing! I've never seen that many wintering birds in one spot! Danny, thanks again for the pic and tips. Best, Mike
Danny, (Now here come MORE kind words) The second photo you attached is simply AWESOME! I mean, this pic could serve to tell the world what the entire class is all about. The 170 really is a fun, fast boat-- and hiking out at 10 to 15 degree heel is when she's at her best, it seems. Case in point, I did make it out for a sail today. The breeze was just rock solid at 10mph--not a single gust. I used your CE aft technique, raising the board just slightly, and re-adjusting my capsize countermeasure line (from main jam cleat base to c-b/to prevent "a slam" in case of turtle) ---Man, you were right, putting the CE aft slightly helped the boat point/track a bit higher and stiffer. The boat SEEMED more stable at least-- but maybe it was placebo effect ;o) Anyway, the sailing was some of the best I've every had in my 170, mainly because I could literally lock down the jib and main sheets, hike out and just drive (albeit both sheets were draped over the windward gunwale by my thigh and reachable in 1/10 of a second). Danny, one more question: What model year is your 170 (the side stripes indicate to me that it's a later model) and does it have the "heavier" centerboard mentioned in this forum? I may yet trade my stock '99 boat's centerboard up for the weightier one. Your view? And have you sailed a pre-heavier board 170? I sailed my cousin's 2003 this summer in Minnesota and it did seem a hair stabler. One note for upper Midwesterners and lake-sailing New Englanders who might be reading this. I counted 15 common loons on our Florida lake today while sailing! I've never seen that many wintering birds in one spot! Danny, thanks again for the pic and tips. Best, Mike
Reefing/Furlo/Centerboard (4)
Hi Mike Glad you had a great time out there today. I looked up to see your sailing pond. It looks like a great place to sail. My h-170 is a 2001 model. That is the year before the heavier centerboard. I will be making the change to a heavier centerboard in the next few weeks, only because there are now a few more h-170s here, and we are starting to form a club. It would be nice if we all had the same hull, displacement, and sail area. The difference is so little that I don't think I will notice any difference until I am at a heel angle of > 15º. After 15º, anything on the boat, including on the gunwale is move closer inboard, over the vertical centerline. Conversely, the end of the centerboard, (and the end of the mast for that matter), move farther out from the vertical centerline. Added weight, especially at the end of the centerboard will tend to help a bit. The farther from the centerline, the better. Here is a link to Sailing Obsession. If you navigate around this site you cane see some of our owners and a couple outings. If you look at the h-170 link, you can also read one of my reviews. http://www.sailing-obsession.com/index.html Danny
Hi Mike Glad you had a great time out there today. I looked up to see your sailing pond. It looks like a great place to sail. My h-170 is a 2001 model. That is the year before the heavier centerboard. I will be making the change to a heavier centerboard in the next few weeks, only because there are now a few more h-170s here, and we are starting to form a club. It would be nice if we all had the same hull, displacement, and sail area. The difference is so little that I don't think I will notice any difference until I am at a heel angle of > 15º. After 15º, anything on the boat, including on the gunwale is move closer inboard, over the vertical centerline. Conversely, the end of the centerboard, (and the end of the mast for that matter), move farther out from the vertical centerline. Added weight, especially at the end of the centerboard will tend to help a bit. The farther from the centerline, the better. Here is a link to Sailing Obsession. If you navigate around this site you cane see some of our owners and a couple outings. If you look at the h-170 link, you can also read one of my reviews. http://www.sailing-obsession.com/index.html Danny
Righting moment/ heavier 170 centerboard
Danny, Great point on vertical centerline during heeling. Part of my 170s tenderness past 15 degrees of heel certainly lies in the relatively light weight of its 1999 centerboard but perhaps more so in the relatively tall mast. While sailing her Saturday, I was thinking of my 170s LOA vs. mast height-- 17' 1" vs. 25' 6" is a pretty healthy ratio. Although I don't need 'club uniformity', I might still opt for the heavier board soon-- just so I can add that tiny bit of extra righting moment. By the way, when ordering the heavier board from JY, is one able to exchange the original board for the new one, thereby getting some sort of rebate/recycling benefit from JY? The reason I ask is I'd heard previously that this upgrade costs $300. or so through JY, but the price on the Web for the heavier board alone is $800. (on one Website, anyway). Thanks, Mike
Danny, Great point on vertical centerline during heeling. Part of my 170s tenderness past 15 degrees of heel certainly lies in the relatively light weight of its 1999 centerboard but perhaps more so in the relatively tall mast. While sailing her Saturday, I was thinking of my 170s LOA vs. mast height-- 17' 1" vs. 25' 6" is a pretty healthy ratio. Although I don't need 'club uniformity', I might still opt for the heavier board soon-- just so I can add that tiny bit of extra righting moment. By the way, when ordering the heavier board from JY, is one able to exchange the original board for the new one, thereby getting some sort of rebate/recycling benefit from JY? The reason I ask is I'd heard previously that this upgrade costs $300. or so through JY, but the price on the Web for the heavier board alone is $800. (on one Website, anyway). Thanks, Mike
Reefing/Furlo/Centerboard (5)
Hi Mike I am not sure of the cost or exchange rate for the heavier centerboard. I have access to a new but damaged and repaired centerboard from my dealer at Sailing Obsession. Dennis has been great about rendering any help he can to his customers. As with myself, customers become friends. I am looking forward to trying out my new "Boom Kicker". I am confident that the Boom Kicker will do more to dampen the instability at <15º than anything other than reefing. It will allow me to add twist to the mainsail without having to use a topping lift to raise he boom. I will have to keep you posted after I am out next. Danny
Hi Mike I am not sure of the cost or exchange rate for the heavier centerboard. I have access to a new but damaged and repaired centerboard from my dealer at Sailing Obsession. Dennis has been great about rendering any help he can to his customers. As with myself, customers become friends. I am looking forward to trying out my new "Boom Kicker". I am confident that the Boom Kicker will do more to dampen the instability at <15º than anything other than reefing. It will allow me to add twist to the mainsail without having to use a topping lift to raise he boom. I will have to keep you posted after I am out next. Danny
New h-170 Centerboard Upgrade
Hi Mike I thought that I would update you on your concerns for the new centerboard upgrade. On Saturday, I exchanged my old centerboard for the new, heavier centerboard. However, before I installed the new board, I weighed and measured it. I found the size to be the same on both boards, however, I found the new board to be looser fitting on my boat. I don't quite know why yet. I found the new board to be only 16 lbs. heavier. And even more importantly, I found the the center of gravity to be about 5" higher. This means that Hunter added weight, but added the weight at or near the top of the board. I would have liked the weight to be at the bottom. My conclusion is that you will not be able to tell a differance with the new centerboard except when heeled WAY over. And then, you would barely be able to tell, if you could tell at all. I would certainly NOT pay the cost of exchange. On a good note, it only took removing one screw from the bottom, then lifting the board out from the top. Time taken was 4-5 minutes. Danny
Hi Mike I thought that I would update you on your concerns for the new centerboard upgrade. On Saturday, I exchanged my old centerboard for the new, heavier centerboard. However, before I installed the new board, I weighed and measured it. I found the size to be the same on both boards, however, I found the new board to be looser fitting on my boat. I don't quite know why yet. I found the new board to be only 16 lbs. heavier. And even more importantly, I found the the center of gravity to be about 5" higher. This means that Hunter added weight, but added the weight at or near the top of the board. I would have liked the weight to be at the bottom. My conclusion is that you will not be able to tell a differance with the new centerboard except when heeled WAY over. And then, you would barely be able to tell, if you could tell at all. I would certainly NOT pay the cost of exchange. On a good note, it only took removing one screw from the bottom, then lifting the board out from the top. Time taken was 4-5 minutes. Danny
Centerboard installation
Danny, Thanks for the news on the new centerboard for your 170. WOW!--only 16 extra lbs. in the heavier board, and most of it higher up in the board (e.g. not in the bottom of the board)? With that helpful information, I think I'll just carry on with my '99 boat's stock board. I was sort of hoping JY/Hunter would have put the heavier board's additional weight IN the bottom, a sort of lead ballast keel effect--- putting the weight LOW in the boat/keel adds that lovely, stable righting moment in keelboats, and I'd appreciate even a slight improvement on stability in my 170 toward that end. If Hunter were to add more weight low in subsequent 170 c-boards, they could always furnish an additional purchase retro-fit for the board uphaul mechanism... Thanks for the info. With it, I will not grouse further about whether a retrofit would help much-- Instead, I'll appreciate what I've got! Thanks, Mike
Danny, Thanks for the news on the new centerboard for your 170. WOW!--only 16 extra lbs. in the heavier board, and most of it higher up in the board (e.g. not in the bottom of the board)? With that helpful information, I think I'll just carry on with my '99 boat's stock board. I was sort of hoping JY/Hunter would have put the heavier board's additional weight IN the bottom, a sort of lead ballast keel effect--- putting the weight LOW in the boat/keel adds that lovely, stable righting moment in keelboats, and I'd appreciate even a slight improvement on stability in my 170 toward that end. If Hunter were to add more weight low in subsequent 170 c-boards, they could always furnish an additional purchase retro-fit for the board uphaul mechanism... Thanks for the info. With it, I will not grouse further about whether a retrofit would help much-- Instead, I'll appreciate what I've got! Thanks, Mike
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