Classic Cruiser vrs Modern Cruiser

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Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Wind vanes and docking

Good morning Roger.

Got a question for you. Do you have issues with the wind vane when docking or clearance at the slip in general. I've heard the can cause problems.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
Do you have issues with the wind vane when docking or clearance at the slip in general? I've heard the can cause problems.
Everything has its price and there is no way to duck the fact that you have something expensive and delicate on the back of your boat. I've never had any problems but I was glad to have much larger boat on each side of me in the marina.

The Cape Horn is glassed pretty solidly into the boat and should take a hard knock. OTOH, it would be more difficult to repair than a bolt on unit. OTOH you could probably just glass it back in place and get it working again with stuff you could carry on board as opposed to waiting for an expensive aluminum casting to be shipped out to a remote location.

It's a small price to pay for the steering help. It also makes a great handhold for getting in and out of the dinghy and would give someone in the water alone something to grab onto while pulling the boarding ladder down.

I do get a bit ansy when clumsy powerboaters are trying to parallel park behind me in a tight spot while screaming at their poor wives because they want everyone to think it's the wife's fault and not their deficient boat handling that is causing all the surging and floundering around.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Bout what I figured

That's about what I expected. I have been researching vanes for my next (50ish") boat and with a sugar scoop stern it's just hard to get it incorporated in a fashion that I like. Seems like is it sticking out or in the way of boarding.
 
May 24, 2004
154
Catalina 310 Virginia Beach, VA
I found this quote to be salient regarding this conversation, it is from John Vigor in his book "Things I wish I'd Known Before I started Sailing-it is a good read: "BOAT DESIGN Don't delude yourself-there is no perfect boat. No boat can be the best at everything. Boa design is a series of compromises. For speed you may have to sacrifice comfort or seaworthiness. For Stability you may have to sacrifice accommodations, and so on it can't have it all."
Really to me, if I want super comfort (i.e. large salon and cockpit) the boat may not be the best for extended offshore work, If I give up the "Floating Condo Look" the boat may well be more sea kindly. To me even modern true offshore cruisers-Island Packet, Pacific Seacraft etc) seem to balance both what was best with the old and blend it in with modern design and technology. Hulls are lighter because we have learned how strong fiberglass really is, something we did not really know back in the back so they were overbuilt and heavy. An Alberg 30 is a great example of that.

Fair Winds
 
Dec 4, 2008
264
Other people's boats - Milford, CT
It looks like you could mount a steel tube semi circle around the windvane which would guard it pretty well.

Of course that adds weight in the aft end of the boat and probably would give marinas an excuse to charge for another foot.

Oh yeah... and it would prevent the servo paddle from being flipped up. Never mind...

Todd
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
I like many of the features of the modern cruiser. Longer waterline = higher hull speed. fin keel and spade rudder = less resistance and great turning. Flat bottom = more stable and I believe less resistance (not totally sure on that one). Wide stern = living space (nice when you actually live on the boat verse just spending a few days/months on it).

Some of those features make it theorectially faster. However, when I did the race across the gulf, there was a bluewater boat that kept stride for stride with me most of the way. It was a Tayana 37' like this one (http://www.sailingtexas.com/stayana37a.html). It had a rating of 213 to my 150. The conditions that race were a little rough with winds starting at 28 knots true, down from 35 the night before and blowing the same direction for days. The waves at start were reported choppy 9-11 and seemed at least that. So obviously, my boat was not that much faster then theirs in those conditions...and yes, I do believe the sailtrim was right as I did beat a 54' C&C with an very experienced racer as captain.

So I wonder how the Tayana 37' would have faired with me in light winds.
I own a Ty37
If properly rated a Tayana 37 should have a rating of ~174PHRF plus if well faired, and with 'good' sails, and 'proper/corrected' keel leading edge shape will probably be in the range of an honest 165-168 PHRF. A properly set up Ty37 will have no difficulty in light conditions but as with all fullkeelers you dont want to get into a tacking duel or in any other situation that depends on 'acceleration'. The Ty37 is generally 'overcanvassed' (100% SA ~850 sq.ft; but normally sailed @ `1100+ sq. ft.) so under normal seastate conditions a Ty37 is normally reefed early but will remain quite stable (and comfortable) well into F8-9+ conditions.

"in the classic boats, does the weather helm increase as the boat heals more?"
Most of Bob Perry's 'double enders' (Tayana, Baba, Tashiba, Valiant, etc. etc.) have quite symmetric hull forms so that if well trimmed can sail almost over to their beam ends ... and with little change in helm. Being relatively narrow beamed, there is large intitial tenderness but they harden up well at ~20deg. For passagemaking they tend to 'slow roll' (maybe a bit 'top heavy') that tends NOT to tire out the crew as would a lightweight with a 'fast roll period'. The bow entry angle on a Ty37 is quite high/large so that when beating, the larger the waves/chop the less ability to point, unlike a boat with a 'fine bow' that points much better in all conditions (but you have to be out of your mind to always be pointing on long distance passages).

Too bad that Pacific Seacraft went belly-up as the 'evolution' of quality passagemakers in the 'under 40 ft. range' was about to be 'stunningly optimized' by the Bob Perry design of the new PS38.5 - a design that seemed to be latest evolution and refinement of such sized 'deep water boats'. When asked Perry stated that the PS38.5 would be the 'todays/modern' version of the Ty37, Baba40, Valiant40 and all the other 'derivitives' that followed. The fact is that more of these Perry-boats have circumnavigated than by any other designer.

I power-puke less in a slow rolling boat.
Symmetric hulls are easier on windvanes/autopilots
Once I get to hull speed I can reef.
A deep in the water boat by design generally can carry VASTLY more stores and still sail on her design waterline. A lightweight boat fully loaded with stores will be much deeper in the water and may become very 'cranky'.

If I were buying new Id opt for sloop @ 7/8ths rig with solent stay, BIG mainsail but 4 reef positions, less than 40ft. so I can still be able to manhandle the largest sail on a pitching deck if needed, moderately fine bow, split underbody, 'semi-balanced' rudder ON skeg, retractable bowsprit w/ roll-gen for spinnaker, ALL primary sail controls back to the helm (not cockpit) including end-boom sheeting, drop down swim-platform (flush when sailing), double backstay, NO 'staysail', windshield instead of dodger (maybe a soft easily removable top).... and importantly, alternative easy access stowage places so one doesnt need all that 'crap on de back' .... a 'clean' boat for minimal 'windage' - no ugly 'oil derricks' or 'roll bars' on the back, no aft rail clutter, etc.
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,204
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
"If I were buying new Id opt for sloop @ 7/8ths rig with solent stay, BIG mainsail but 4 reef positions, less than 40ft. so I can still be able to manhandle the largest sail on a pitching deck if needed, moderately fine bow, split underbody, 'semi-balanced' rudder ON skeg, retractable bowsprit w/ roll-gen for spinnaker, ALL primary sail controls back to the helm (not cockpit) including end-boom sheeting, drop down swim-platform (flush when sailing), double backstay, NO 'staysail', windshield instead of dodger (maybe a soft easily removable top).... and importantly, alternative easy access stowage places so one doesnt need all that 'crap on de back' .... a 'clean' boat for minimal 'windage' - no ugly 'oil derricks' or 'roll bars' on the back, no aft rail clutter, etc"

In large part, you just described the Hunter HC 50. I think they are only available via special order being no good commercial success. Certainly one of the best special purpose fast cruisers built. See the link: http://www.iwonderinc.com/LaVida/HC50Page/HC50scroll.html
 
Jun 26, 2007
106
Freedom F39 Lyttelton New Zealand
I have owned a Herreshoff H28 and HR35 both long keel boats. They both look after the crew pretty well in heavy weather and heave too very well also. However they don't point very well and they are not that great down wind if they are over canvassed. I think two factors are important for blue water cruising, the ability to sail well down wind - gentlemen don't sail up wind!- And comfortable accomodation as more than 90% of the time is spent in port. My current boat is far superior in both respects and goes quite well to windward also. Long fin and skegg hung rudder. Course keeping is great and she is easy to control when surfing - The other two seem to have minds of their own when you get much above hull speed. Cheers, Mike.
 
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