Cherubini "quest" 33

[Redbeard33]

Well I finally did it, the interior was water damaged and had been mostly removed, when it became evident that the galley had to be dismantled to redo the ice box i decided to gut the entire port side. The chart table/engine cover will be rebuilt very similar to the original using the old as templates and the galley will be reinstalled in the same location however may be resized or shifted slightly. ANYWAYS the reason your reading this is since I had to remove damaged wood anyway, is there any nagging change that you have wanted to make to the general design of your boat that wouldnt make sense to do unless you had it torn apart anyway? I have a blank canvas and plan on spending the time and money to make full size mock-up's out of cheap luan plywood before committing to cutting the nice stuff. so if you ever wished the counter was a bit wider here or shifted this way there, I would love to hear opinions and suggestions to mull over for a bit before i commit to any one design....thanks in advance

 

[capejt]

WOW! You really went to town there! You've done methodically to your boat what I've been tempted at times to do to mine with a big sledge.
Seriously though, a couple of quick questions for you.
First, how did you remove the "carpet" from the hull? Second, what's the blue (paint?)?
One thing I would suggest, as you've probably seen on this site several times, is to add substantial insulation to the ice box while it's in the open and easy to access.
It looks like you're off to a great start. Take your time and do it right. And keep us updated on the progress.

 

[H33CRich]

While rebuilding the chart table/engine cover, take a look a t what I did to accomodate 4 golf cart batteries above the shower sump. http://www.richgard.com/h33celectrical.htm
I made the cabinet 2 inches longer than stock to provide the needed clearance for the stacked sets. I also made an easy access panel so that you could service the batteries from under the stairs instead of through the engine access port on the port side of the cabinet. The servicing I do is add water through a hydration tubing system.

 

[DianaOfBurlington]

Interior(s) in progress

Wow. And I thought my boat's interior was a wreck. At least yours looks CLEAN.

The nagging change I have always wanted to do was to add a bulkhead separating the port-side settee from the quarter berth in my H25; and I did this. It shows up in some of the photos in my blog.

Also, really just as a matter of course, I converted the whole v-berth area into a true forepeak having lockers, plumbing runs, a tool box cubbyhole and a microwave (since it's the only place it would fit); so my originally 5-berth boat sleeps only 4 now. I also remodelled the head compartment so it has real lockers and a real sink.

And I tore out the foredeck hatch and built one in the style of the C44's; and I added coaming grab rails beside the main hatch. These are in place but not finished (awaiting Epoxy Primekote and Brightside/Perfection).


I rarely post pics, even on the blog, since it never looks very presentable as a work-in-process; but your bravery (or chutzpah) in posting yours, Redbeard, have encouraged me.

 

[DianaOfBurlington]

BTW the turquoise-blue is very nice. I hope you keep it.

 

[Redbeard33]

Sorry to have disappeared for so long, but I had to stop working on the boat temporarily because the previous owner had passed away and the boat was at his dock. I thought it prudent to give his family a break from someone walking by the house 4 times a week for a while (not that they would mind, just out of respect). He was a great man with the generousity to allow me to pay the boat off in monthly installments and keep the boat at his place, the only condition was that I would visit for a glass of wine from time to time (oh twist my arm!). He was very pleased to see that someone was restoring the boat to its former glory. The boat was only a month away from being paid off and was subsequently tied up in a trust for several months. His son was very helpful with the mountain of paperwork and I'm proud to say that I now have a clear title of ownership!! I have started work on the boat again and will try to get some recent pictures soon.

Captjt - The carpet was glued to the hull permanently, i used a sharp scraper (4" drywall taping knife run over a grinder) then went back with an angle grinder with a huge wire wheel attached to smooth things out, however i will caution you to use a respirator and remove EVERYTHING from the cabin that isn't bolted down it will get covered in dust, afterward I ran a hose inside the boat and scrubbed and hosed off everything (my interior needed it anyway) the dust simply went to the bilge which was pumped low then shopvac'ed out, The dark blue is cheap rustoleum just to pretty up the interior until the wood slatting goes on, the light blue is interlux bright side painted on the interior fiberglass surfaces that will be left exposed. I do plan on adding mucho mucho insulation, i will probably start another thread in a few months when i tackle that project but have been researching closed cell vs. vacuum panels.

H33Rich- I saw that writeup you did on the battery compartment, thats exactly what I want to do, but have you noticed any difference at all adding that much lead right there? I would assume not but have had several others (whom don't own our boat) caution me about that.

DOB- Thanks for your compliments, but trust me its not always that clean! I do plan on adding drawers and various compartments throughout (I got to rip out a bunch of solid teak doors and hatch covers from a Tayana 52 that had a deck fire). As i move forward with formulating a storage plan I need to look at weight distribution and max capacity, could you (or anyone else) add insight to what the max load is for this vessel? displacement is 10,600 and ballast is 4,400. I had been told once that the displacement is the 'total buoyancy' and you subtract ballast and that gives you the figure for everything else aboard(6,200). Im not sure if I trust that logic entirely....

 

[Redbeard33]

Heres a few shots of the interior V-berth and settees before and after paint, I also included a shot of my handy dandy soup cooker, I wonder if they would sell that on an infomercial haha

 

[Paul F]

Really like what you are doing. I too was thinking how to redo the cabin layout. Two of the ideas I had were to lay the galley along the side without the intruding sink/cabinet projection into the middle of the boat. And to add a two basin sink. There is a loss of storage but a real increase in "move around" space. I have taken out the stove and added a a/c d/c fridge. I use an Origo stove for cooking. It takes little space in storage.

 

[H33CRich]

...
H33Rich- I saw that writeup you did on the battery compartment, thats exactly what I want to do, but have you noticed any difference at all adding that much lead right there? I would assume not but have had several others (whom don't own our boat) caution me about that.
.....

Here is how I look at it.
280 lbs (4 batteries x 70 lbs each)
2 batteries are below the water line may be a benefit
2 above water line, some negative but less than one of my guest passengers

The boat weighs 10800 lbs dry (adding 200 lbs to SD ballast also goes to increasing the displacement). Fresh water weight can range from 0 to 400 lbs. Fuel can range from 0 to 210 lbs. I carry at least 100 lbs of tools and spares plus 120 lbs for holding tank waste. Anchor and rode add up to about 60 lbs. 100 lbs for food and ice. Drinking water and other beverages adds to it. Add 75 lbs for the bimini and solar panels. After adding this up plus 500 lbs in passenger weight, plus sails, other provisions, you come to well over 12000 lbs.... 280 lbs (a little more than 2% of the total displacement), forward of the engine and next to the keel and half below waterline will have no measureable affect on the crusing performance on our boats.

 

[Bill1565]

I think you are fooling yourself if you think you can detect the performance change from 280 or even 500 pounds. Dirty bottoms, old sails yes, but 280# no. You can however detect a change in stability if you lower (or raise ) a few hundred pounds and encounter one of those 5 foot powerboat wakes.

 

[H33CRich]

Adding 300 lbs to the displacement and nothing to balast, has the following impact on the numbers:
The Stability Index changes from 0.976 to 1.0 (completely Neutral). This is a measure of a tendency to heal. Less than 1 is more stiff. More than 1 is more tender. A Hunter 34 (stiff) has an SI of 0.759. The Pearson 35 (tender) has an SI of 1.255.
Capsize screening changes from 1.81 to 1.80
Balast/Displacement 0.41 to 0.40.

The batteries balance at about a 22 degree incline. It is placed low and on the centerline.

Hence, the affect on stability is next to nonexistant. Adding a passenger will have more impact.

 

[jorgefife]

May I suggest that after removing all the moldy and smelly carpets from the bulkheads, you insulate it, put furring strips vertically every 2 feet, and (as I did in my case) install tongue and groove cedar panels all around; I get them here in Houston for $4.00 for a piece 4" x 8 feet, so for $100.00 I did my entire boat (except the port side rear part)

 

[DianaOfBurlington]

Weights and balances

Having worked in yacht design as well as having raced boats, I subscribe to Colin Chapman's mantra at Lotus Cars: 'Simplify, simplify, simplify; then add lightness.' (This was a guy who cut out lightening holes in the sheet metal of the glovebox and then made a cardboard insert that held the actual gloves. But an Elan was 1500 lbs when a Corvette weighed twice that.)

What weight sources I have added to my boat went in the right places-- mainly, as low as possible and centered between fore and aft, right over the lead. I have two house batteries and 52 gallons of water (the other option was 26 gallons which was not enough) and all the canned goods. The water is worth about 400 lbs (if full, which won't happen). The batteries under the settees are worth about 125 lbs. Under the cockpit goes 12 gallons of gasoline (72 lbs). The anchor rodes have been moved aft from the forward v-berth locker by about 4 ft and are housed in plastic trash cans whose bottoms are about on the v-berth itself. The 10 ft of chain lead for each one is stored on deck (though at sea could be stuffed below). The holding tank is under the aft end of the v-berth. There is nothing in either the old rode locker (forward of the bunk) or aft of the after end of the cockpit. (Well, there is air.)

The point is that it doesn't matter how much weight we add, because we're all going to add weight and too much of it at that. We can endeavor to save weight in all the fixed items, intending to live like Spartans, and then go cruising with 450 lbs of chain rode in the very bow of the boat and 250 lbs of dinghy on davits aft (two of the worst places to add weight to any boat). So ultimately the question is muu.

Anyone who ever flew small airplanes knows about this: focus on where the weight gets added. We have a general warning at Cherubini that no-one should add any equipment or heavy gear to a C44 aft of station 8 (front of the cockpit, at the mizzen step). Yet, people do; and too many of the waterline stripes get repainted. This is not only embarrassing but detrimental to performance. If my boat has to be a little too heavy, at least it'll be well-balanced (and stiff)-- and the prime weights are things I can shift or do with more or less of, like fresh water and canned goods; and they're in the best places of all.

In short, RedB, don't worry about how much it is. Put it in the best possible place for balance and performance and it is what it is.

 

[FourPoints]

The Stability Index changes from 0.976 to 1.0 (completely Neutral). This is a measure of a tendency to heal. Less than 1 is more stiff. More than 1 is more tender. A Hunter 34 (stiff) has an SI of 0.759. The Pearson 35 (tender) has an SI of 1.255.
Capsize screening changes from 1.81 to 1.80
Balast/Displacement 0.41 to 0.40.

Not disagreeing with the conclusion that it won't make any real difference, but where did those numbers come from? SA had a rather involved discussion about that and I never saw any concensus on how to calculate that even remotely accuratly

This formula was suggested, but never explained or cited where it came from.
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=118735&#entry3164005

 

[H33CRich]

Not disagreeing with the conclusion that it won't make any real difference, but where did those numbers come from? SA had a rather involved discussion about that and I never saw any concensus on how to calculate that even remotely accuratly

This formula was suggested, but never explained or cited where it came from.
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=118735&#entry3164005

It is a function of the moment of inertia and the roll period. It is still implicit formula. Emperical evidence seems to support it.

[FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]MOMENT OF INERTIA (I) = disp^1.744/35.5[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]An empirical term developed by SNAME. Large values resist rolling forces. The moment of inertia is very sensitive to the [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]distance items are from the CG. A heavy rig can greatly increase I, with little impact on displacement.[/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]ROLL PERIOD (T) = 2*PI*(I/(82.43*lwl*(.82*beam)^3))^.5[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]The roll period is based on the moment of inertia. The term ".82*beam" has been substituted for the waterline beam due to [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]lack of data. Using ".82" results in a close match for the few boats with measured periods, but more data is needed (If you [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]have measured roll data, email it to me and I[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]’[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]ll include it in my data base). Simply stated, a sailboat[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]’[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]s roll period, in [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]seconds, is inversely proportional to its stability. Unstable boats have long periods, stable boats have short periods. The [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]roll period is very easy to determine, you simply grab a shroud and push / pull until the boat is rocking over a few degrees. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Then count the number of full cycles in one minute, and divide into 60. The general rule of thumb is that boats with [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]periods less than 4 seconds are stiff and periods greater than 8 seconds are tender. The template value of 4.05 is near the [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]stiff end of the range, indicating good static stability.[/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]STABILITY INDEX = T / (beam*.3048)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]This is another empirical term relating period and beam to stability. Values less than 1.0 are considered stiff. Values [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]greater than 1.5 are considered tender. I like this technique because its simple, and includes the hull form, the center of [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]gravity, and the roll moment of inertia, all in one easy to use package. The template boat again leans towards the stiff side, [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]with a value of 1.1.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]In summary, all cruising boats use a combination of CG control, form stability, and displacement to determine static [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]stability. This value is then used to size the sail area so that a generous amount of capsize resistance exists under full sail [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]and moderate wind conditions. This is a delicate part of a boat design. Too much sail area will require early reefing or high [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]heel angles, to little and the boat will be a slug in light air. Dynamic stability is also important and closely related to the [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]moment of inertia. A high moment of inertia helps survival in heavy weather. The roll period of a boat blends elements of [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]static and dynamic stability and can be useful when comparing potential cruising boats.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]While many other factors must go into selecting your ideal cruising boat, following the basic Stability Template is a [FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]good first step. The designs from these nine world class cruising boat designers have logged a great many sea miles. If [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]your boat is similar, you can have confidence that it has at least some of the right stuff with regard to static and dynamic [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]stability.[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
[/SIZE][/FONT]
This was published in a article on estimating boat stability in JohnsBoatStuff.com which went offline about a year ago. [FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif]http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/estimati.htm. John more than likely got his information from the master; C.A. Marchaj. See his books - SEAWORTHINESS: THE FORGOTTEN FACTOR, chapter 4, "Boat Motions in a Seaway". [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif]I have two of his books: (http://www.amazon.com/Seaworthiness-Forgotten-C-A-Marchaj/dp/1888671092/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2) and (http://www.amazon.com/Sailing-Theory-Practice-Czeslaw-Marchaj/dp/0396084281/ref=pd_sim_b_1).[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,sans-serif]I happened to make a copy of it before it went off-line by printing it to .xps (like adobe's PDF but MicroSoft's taken on it).[/FONT]