Checking chainplates and dismasting question

Jackdaw · Oct 30, 2016

100% of dismastings on modern production cruisers is caused by hardware failure. That's usually a maintenance issue, and sometimes rarely a hidden manufacturing defect. The safety margin designed into modern cruising rigs is well beyond anything you'll ever sail in. Maintain it and you'll be fine.

David in Sandusky · Oct 30, 2016

There are two extreme results of sailing with too much sail area for conditions.

1. By far the most common is a round-up. The boat heels far enough to stall the rudder; with the rudder ineffective, weather helm "rounds" the boat up, head to wind. At that point, the rudder is effective again. It's then a good time to heave to and reef, or drop a sail.

2. A rare case is usually caused by an unexpected gust, associated with a front, or thunder cloud. A knock-down occurs when the rig is suddenly overpowered, and the sails are pressed down to the surface of the water. When the gust exhausts itself, a keel boat will right itself, and the crew can then help each other, and shorten sail as needed. (The cabin is usually a mess from the 90 degree roll.)

In neither case will a well maintained boat lose a sail or the mast. As previously noted, dismasting is caused by (usually fatigue or corrosion) failure of a rig component.

Terry Cox · Oct 30, 2016

Sage advice, here. Our 1991 boat has original sails and rigging. The 150 mast head genoa generates considerable power. Each year I use a magnifying glass to go over the chain plates, fittings and other rigging components for signs of stress or degradation. So far so good. I have been in 28+ winds under full sail with the rail in the water, which is pretty exciting. As the wind pipes up usually the boat will heel over allowing wind to spill out the top of the sails, thus reducing some pressure. A strong and unexpected (if the skipper is paying attention gust tells means preparations are in order; easing sail trim, pinching, reefing, etc.) gust along with a rogue wave can cause a knock down, but usually the boat will right itself once the conditions pass.

walmsleyc · Oct 30, 2016

Comments above are correct. When rigs are lost and it's not due to a failure or defect, it's likely because the boat got rolled over. For that to happen, you will have been in serious storm conditions, likely in open waters, and have just taken a huge breaking wave on the beam, which rolled your boat over in a 360. In that case, it's really the water and wave energy that take out your rig not wind.

Chris

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Terry Cox · Oct 30, 2016

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Jackdaw · Oct 31, 2016

RichW9603 said:
Thanks much for the great info. So sounds like as long as I check the rigging out for problems I shouldn't run into many problems on the relatively small Texas lake I sail on, even if I leave too much sail up.

Is there any way to check the chainplate bedding to see if it is also in good shape? I only see the huge bolts inside the salon. I imagine if some water were to get down there, the fiberglass would start delaminating and then during a gust or something the chainplate bedding would give way with catastrophic results.

If your chainplates are set in fiberglass then you are probably great. 99% of chainplate failure comes from them being set in WOOD, which has rotted after being wet for years. If they stay dry they are fine, but that is an old constuction technique that is now rarely used. Water does not cause solid fiberglass to delaminate.

I'd suggest you have a marine surveyor come have a look, to put your mind at ease.

isaksp00 · Oct 31, 2016

I can attest to what Jackdaw said. My H23 has wood bulkheads to which the chainplates bolt. Because the cover over the slot in the deck that the chainplate goes through was not sealed correctly, the wood decayed and one of the bulkheads cracked. I did not lose the mast, as the bolts "bottomed up" against the ceiling of the inner deck liner, preventing the chainplate itself from sliding up through the slot. When I removed the rotted wood it was like powder - the only grinding I needed to do was on the glassed tabbing that held the wood to the inner hull.

Terry Cox · Oct 31, 2016

RichW9603 said:
Is there any way to check the chainplate bedding to see if it is also in good shape? I only see the huge bolts inside the salon. I imagine if some water were to get down there, the fiberglass would start delaminating and then during a gust or something the chainplate bedding would give way with catastrophic results.

No experience with your boat model, but most of the Hunters use a similar chain plate arrangement. Our boat has a SS fixture on deck where the rigging is secured. That fixture connects to a SS rod that extends down to the inside of the hull and is connected to a large SS bracket that is formed into the fiber glass reinforced hull during layup (very strong). The culprit here is water corrosion. If water seeps through the deck fixture, down the rod and into this bracket, over time it will weaken from corrosion. Ours remains dry and in good condition. If in doubt have it inspected.

Ken Cross · Nov 1, 2016

RichW9603 said:
The guy I bought my boat from said that he once had it doing 12 knots in about 35 knots of wind, double-reefed, probably surfing down a wave in seas, but I wasn't sure if he was embellishing.

Thanks again.

Certainly, 12 knots seems like quite a stretch or is way overpowered. I found I needed to recalibrate our knot meter. ( I used GPS in a low current area as a reference, then reversed course to check it.)

Ken

ggrizzard · Nov 2, 2016

Terry,
Please send your Visa card number to my assistant (Picture Below) so that we can delete our 'in house store' ads from your forums.
We know how disruptive looking at a picture of boating equipment can be while reading about boats.
Sincerely, (sort of)
Your SBO Consumer Advocat

Crazy Dave Condon · Nov 2, 2016

As a dealer having sold the larger Beneteau, Catalina and Hunter, I concur with Jackdaw as to what he said
"100% of dismastings on modern production cruisers is caused by hardware failure. That's usually a maintenance issue, and sometimes rarely a hidden manufacturing defect." There are many reasons but generally when all said and done goes back to human error in most cases to include failure of routine maintenance or timely repair by the owner, sailing in risky extreme circumstances, failure of a dealership
to inspect their work before releasing a boat whether new or worked on, use of improper materials/methods/experience in repairs by anyone and the list goes on. Then I read hypothetical questions, suggestions and again the list goes on and I shake my head particularly when some suggest that the boat must be perfect no matter what the issues as to causal affect is.

I have always erred on the side of safety suggesting that risky situations should be avoided. What I have seen in serious injury or death would make you think otherwise being safe. When I read people as an example want to sail pupousely in high wind with the rails in the water for pleasure sailing as a good example or even ask these questions, I just wonder why we go that far. Risks need to be avoided unless thrusted into that situation unless caught in it.

Gunni · Nov 2, 2016

Bedded stainless chainplates can develop hidden corrosion from lack of oxygen. Oxygen protects marine stainless from corrosion. So if you have a +25year old boat that you can's see all sides of your chainplates it is time to call a rigger and have the system taken apart for inspection. As for the rest of your standing rig you don't know how it was treated by previous owners, they may have run it detuned and beat the daylights out of most of the fittings. This a a system, and out of tune systems can propagate strain throughout. If you have no record of standing rig inspection on a 25 year old boat you are whistling past the graveyard if you think you are good to go.

Terry Cox · Nov 2, 2016

ggrizzard said:
Terry,
Please send your Visa card number to my assistant (Picture Below) so that we can delete our 'in house store' ads from your forums.
We know how disruptive looking at a picture of boating equipment can be while reading about boats.
Sincerely, (sort of)
Your SBO Consumer Advocat

Uh, a street address and phone number would help so that I can contact her with the information.

Besides, if I want to look at boat gear, or even pretty girls with or without gear, I do know where to view these sources. No need to insert same in a dialogue. One reason why I no longer subscribe to magazines that supply ads on every other page.

WKW · Jan 5, 2019

I agree with Gunni, Bedded, hidden Chainplates can have serious corrosion and you wouldn't know it. Take the Island Packet, They over built that boat and glassed in the shroud chainplates very well with good intentions. Usually/eventually you see older boats with the Hull pulling in or puckering where they glass in support rods to distribute the stress of chainplates...not so on the IP due to the robust glass layup and the way they glassed the chainplates in. Unfortunately, this awesomeness is biting the current owners in the ass. Due to lack of oxygen, it's very common to see that the stainless chainplates have corroded in several places on a single chainplate. To get a glimpse of them you need to remove interior furniture and when you finally get to them you'll need to remove more furniture when you replace them. Lot's of work and very costly like 10,000-15,000 USD But that's a lot less painful than a mast going for a swim. Another topic but does anyone know if Hunter Isolated the Hull core material from the hull mounted shroud chainplates (like being solid glass in this area) on the 2006'ish Hunter 33's? I can't find this info. Honestly, it would be a really stupid thing if they haven't. Some may say compromised core isn't an issue if you maintain a good seal on the chainplates (we're talking about the "hull mounted" chainplates here) .....I would rather have hunter cover this in the engineering and not have to depend on proper care by the PO.

Checking chainplates and dismasting question

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