Charging System Troubles

[flopster12000]

Hello everyone, hope everyone's summer is going well......

Now my latest problem. I have a problem with charging my boat. I have a 80 amp Balmar Alternator with external voltage regulation on my 44hp Yanmar. A Xantrex smart regulator (looks identical to Balmar one), a wind bugger with trace c40 solar regulator, a 75watt solar panel with orange regulator not sure of brand, and have installed Xantrex a new SW3000 inverter/charger I am awaiting the SCP panel for this inverter to arrive, but have been using a link 10 to monitor things. I have 4 6volt batteries and 12 volt starting battery with total of 960 amp hours capacity on 6 volts. Last week we were out, and discovered no charging on wind bugger, no charging on solar panel, when I would start engine i would only get about 2 - 4 amps on link gauge at 1000 rpm. When I would race engine to 2000 rpms between 16 - 19amps. If I went beyond that speed, it would not go any higher. I thought I might have a alternator problem so I changed it with a spare hitachi 55 amp alternator I had, and no difference, same amps on gauge. I played around with setting on xantrex voltage regulator with magnetic screwdriver, but had no success. I think I had this problem before installing the new inverter but I use to put out a couple of amps with solar panel and now I am not. I am not sure if it is related to inverter, as I may have bumped a wire in engine room during install.
Is there any way to check if my xantrex voltage regulator. A friend said I can take off the wires from my voltage regulator to test the output of my alternator and start engine, but I am afraid I could fry something else i my charging system by doing this.
Is my friend right by saying I can take the voltage regulator out of loop to test? BTW I cannot get any marine electrician in my remote area. I have talked to a regular residential electrician, but he is unfamiliar with this, and is very reluctant to take it on. He said he wouldn't be responsible if something blows, so if this is reassurance, I would rather trust myself........

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Jerry Belbin, Clarenville, Newfoundland, Canada.......

 

[packman]

An alternator will not always charge below 1500 rpm, depends on the unit. Removing the regulator is usually a bad Idea, it can have the effect of "full fielding" your alternator and might possibly cook your electronics. I would begin by as much as possible returning your system to what it was when everything worked correctly, it sounds like you have done too much at one time and that makes it difficult to find the root of the problem. Start over and test thoroughly before you install the next component or system. My two cents

Rich

 

[Maine Sail]

I have 4 6volt batteries and 12 volt starting battery with total of 960 amp hours capacity on 6 volts.

Are you running a 6 volt system? You're not, so you really only have about 450 Ah's of capacity in the 4 6V batts wired in series/parallel for 12V.

Last week we were out, and discovered no charging on wind bugger, no charging on solar panel, when I would start engine i would only get about 2 - 4 amps on link gauge at 1000 rpm. When I would race engine to 2000 rpms between 16 - 19amps. If I went beyond that speed, it would not go any higher.

This may be totally normal behavior if your banks were at or near full.

We need to forget and try to ignore all the fancy, and rather misleading, marketing spin done by the external regulator folks. The BATTERIES decide how much current to accept NOT the alternator or regulator. You could have a 10,000,000,000,000,000 amp alternator and your bank will still only take/accept whit it can.

Balmar says it best:

" Forget the rumor that an oversized alternator will destroy your batteries ... the truth is that the acceptance rate of your batteries will dictate how much amperage the alternator will provide."

The regulator is only striving for a voltage, both Balmar & Xantrex are CV (constant voltage) type regulators and as such they strive to reach a voltage and the current is dictated by the batteries. As batteries become charged the internal resistance goes up and they "take" or "accept" less current from the alternator. We need to think in terms of batteries TAKING or ACCEPTING current not alternators FEEDING current. One way to look at it is that alternators don't feed current they provide it when asked by the battery.

Many solar and wind regulators will shut down intermittently when the batts get full so this too may be normal but you may have also disconnected a wire..

I thought I might have a alternator problem so I changed it with a spare hitachi 55 amp alternator I had, and no difference, same amps on gauge.

If this is an acceptance issue, which I suspect it is, you found the alternator does not decide how much current to feed the batteries the batts decide how much current to ACCEPT.

If they were at or near full this is very normal behavior and a clear indication that your fancy Balmar system won't "force" any more current into the bank than what can be accepted thus the 55 amp alt and the 80 amp alt both provided the same result and a 10,000 amp alt would do the same when up against acceptance with a CV regulator.

The max your four 6V series/parallel wired batteries will ever accept is about 20-25% of their Ah rating. So a 450 Ah bank will only ever accept about 110 amps, give or take, and this will not occur for very long and only when they are very low in charge. As they approach the 80% charge level (SOC/State of Charge) they will begin to drastically reduce the accepted amperage. This is why cruisers only use the 50-80% of charge capacity figures when charging via alternator only. You only drain your batts to 50% of capacity, 225 amp hours for you to hit 50% SOC, and only plan or recharging back to 80% SOC via the alt which is about 360 Ah's. If you subtract 225 from 360 that is your usable on the hook Ah figure of 135 Ah's usable capacity. If you cruise off the dock and you are at 100% SOC all the time then you have 225 Ah's of usable capacity.

I played around with setting on xantrex voltage regulator with magnetic screwdriver, but had no success. I think I had this problem before installing the new inverter but I use to put out a couple of amps with solar panel and now I am not. I am not sure if it is related to inverter, as I may have bumped a wire in engine room during install.

Perhaps you bumped a wire for the wind or solar but the alt is probably working as it should. If you deplete your bank to about 50% SOC you'll surely see it put out a lot more amps.

Is there any way to check if my xantrex voltage regulator. A friend said I can take off the wires from my voltage regulator to test the output of my alternator and start engine, but I am afraid I could fry something else i my charging system by doing this.

Please don't do that until you've gone through all other steps. Simply re-program your Link 10 to a bank of 450 Ah's then deplete the bank to below 80%, perhaps go down to 60% SOC, then start the motor. If your alt is still only supplying on 16-19 amps then we can move onto the next step. Don't panic just yet.

Is my friend right by saying I can take the voltage regulator out of loop to test? BTW I cannot get any marine electrician in my remote area.

Full fielding an alt is not a good idea unless you really know what you are doing. Please do not do this yet. There are a myriad of other tests that can be done first but try discharging the batteries first. An 80 amp alt will NEVER put out anywhere near 80 amps to a near full 450 Ah bank of wet cell batteries. You must also ascertain if your alt is actually charging the bank you think it is..

I have talked to a regular residential electrician, but he is unfamiliar with this, and is very reluctant to take it on.

Don't bother, you'll have as much luck beating your head against cinder blocks as talking to most shore side electricians about 12V systems..

He said he wouldn't be responsible if something blows, so if this is reassurance, I would rather trust myself........

You have more invested than he does...

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Jerry Belbin, Clarenville, Newfoundland, Canada.......

I think you'll find the alt is working as it should but if not come back and we'll take it to the next level.

 

[Steve Dion]

Maine Sail:

Please make a correction to your "Spelling Error" when time permits.

"Many solar and wind regulators will sh*t down intermittently when the batts get full so this too may be normal but you may have also disconnected a wire.."

The children may be reading! <g>

 

[Maine Sail]

Maine Sail:

Please make a correction to your "Spelling Error" when time permits.

"Many solar and wind regulators will sh*t down intermittently when the batts get full so this too may be normal but you may have also disconnected a wire.."

The children may be reading! <g>

Ah but that works too.. Thanks!! Fat finger syndrome on a small key pad.

 

[kloudie1]

Yup, Steve.. think he had it correct initially

 

[Bill Roosa]

Dito MainSail

Control for all these power sources operate on voltage not amperage. If the bats are full then you don't want 10000 amps charging them as that tends to be a bad thing.

 

[flopster12000]

Again, thanks for informed responses, I didn't clarify myself as I would have liked, so will attempt to now. You are right, I am running 12 volt with 2 6 volt in series and then parellel. And my bad, I forgot that I am to 1/2 the amperage when converting from 6 volt batteries. So I guess I have 480 amp hours to play with. I have 4 interstate U2300's new last summer. While out the weekend, I had gone thru over 300 amps of my available supply, but couldn't help it as I was in a isolated cove (Little Harbour Random Island Newfoundland) very pretty but oh so isolated..... I wouldn't want to walk out........ , and could not leave until high winds and fog abated. I realize I shouldn't have let go below 50% but I couldn't help it as it was so cold I had to run heating system and associated fans. While running this, I tried to run engine, but noise and such was too much for wife and was freaking out my dogs, that I had to turn it off and take the battery hit. This was first time, and I realize that this is very bad for my longevity of batteries. So to recap... @ 1000 rpm's 1 - 2 amps at ~ 13.6 - 13.8 v.; @ 1500 4 - 5 amps at 13.8 - 14 v ;@ 2000 rpms 16 - 20 amps at 14.0 - 14.4 v; @ 2400 rpm's no different than 2000 rpms.......

We were starting our vacation, and here in Newfoundland, there is very few marinas with shore power to recharge (In Trinity Bay I can only think of 3 places, Clarenville Home port, Town of Trinity 40 miles away, Bonavista another 50 miles or so from that), so I had to return to home port to figure out problem. Since returning, I have taken down wind bugger, and cleaned, lubed and checked wiring for wear and tear, ditto with solar panel While down off arch pole, I checked voltage for both and they were fine..... , I then looked around engine room for any wires that I have bumped but couldn't find any. I even took off covers for both regulators (Solar and Wind) to check for fuses and they were fine. I am still awaiting the SCP multi panel for my new inverter/charger so am relying on my link 10 for readings. I then played with the xantrex regulator with the combination of LED's to see if some setting was causing the fool up but unless I am reading it wrong this seems to be showing fine. I looked at my link 10 and don't see where it is tied in to xantrex regulator. I think in my case, that it is just acting as a gauge with out any connectivity to other parts. I am glad as it is overwhelming enough as it is without that added complication.

I appreciate the detailed responses from all who have responded, and hope to be able to return favour someday. Thanks, Jerry Belbin.


PS, my friend told me when he adjusted the settings on his balmar regulator, he can notice the load on his engine rpm's, I do not notice any remarkable difference with all settings I tried. Also when the alternator is running, when I move my ratchet near the rear housing bearing, I can feel magnetic pull maybe 4 - 5 lbs, but not something that would take both hands to remove it is this normal? I also had my balmar rebuilt last season, although the rebuilder had never heard of balmar and said that it was ancient technology and claimed that it was like 1970's automotive gear, he couldn't appreciate the external smart regulator and I gave up on trying to educate him as when I tried to explain about smart charging he glazed over and stopped listening. I unfortunately live in a place where most boaters own either open wood or fiberglass open boats with a 35 Johnson on the back, and the "Yachties" own Bayliners and think that sailing is for birds and is activity for university professors and doctors ie. rich folks...... Sorry for generalization, but it is true.... for most part. Our marina has approx 35 boats, with only 7 of them sailboats, of that 5 are owned by dentists and doctors......
Oh whatever happend to our culture in Newfoundland with the Schooners and Dory's off the Grand Banks........ Most outports are either Ghost Towns, Summer Places for CFA's (Come from away's) or soon to be..... Population in early 1900's was over 600,000 now is 520,000 with most people moved to St. John's or other Urban centers........ Sad but True...........

Thanks again, Jerry......

 

[Maine Sail]

As I read it you were supposedly down 300 Ah which should most definitely be closer to the 80 amp out put than you were. So...

1- Where do all your charging sources lead to? (house bank, 1/2/ALL/OFF switch etc.)

2- How are you determining you're charging the house bank vs. the reserve/start bank? (Isolator, ACR type relay, Echo Charger, 1/2/ALL switch)

3- What gauge wire and how long is the lead from the alternator to the charged bank?

4- Do you also have the alt grounded with it's own wire.

5- Where are you sensing the voltage of the bank being charged?

6- Are you running temperature sensors on the alt or batteries?


When trouble shooting always start with the easy stuff.

1- Clean all charging system electrical connections both positive and the negative side.

2- Check the regulator harness for bad connections or increased resistance.

3- If your batteries are wet cells, use a hydrometer to determine their condition after a full charge to make sure no cells are out of whack.

4- Check and/or tighten alternator belt.


If all that checks out then move on to isolate the alt or regulator.

1- While I don't normally advise full fielding an alt this CAN be done to tell if the alt is working properly, if done safely.

A- FIRST turn off ALL electronics that are voltage sensitive as full fielding has no volt control.

B- Connect a +12 source to the field input of the alternator. You can make a jumper for the harness to achieve this or go direct to the alt stud.

C- When doing this I prefer to have an inline fuse than can be easily pulled quickly or a switch. DO NOT run the alt any more than is necessary to assure amps are coming out sufficiently.


Xantrex should have testing values for the regulator. You'll want to measure key on, key off and voltage present at FIELD (most likely blue), SENSE (usually red) and IGNITION (usually brown). You'll also want to test it at around 1400-1600 RPM..

Re: Link 10: The Link 10 does not connect to the regulator or the alt. It measures current into and out of ONE bank via the use of a shunt which must be wired correctly. It also measures the volts of ONE bank. Preferably this is connected to the house bank not the reserve/start bank.

Please give us a good description or drawing of the wiring and all components so we can help you better..

 

[flopster12000]

I will find answers to these questions today.

As I read that you were supposedly down 300 Ah which should most definitely be closer to the 80 amp out put than you were. So...

1- Where do all your charging sources lead to? (house bank, 1/2/ALL/OFF switch etc.)

2- How are you determining you're charging the house bank vs. the reserve/start bank? (Isolator, ACR type relay, Echo Charger, 1/2/ALL switch)

3- What gauge wire and how long is the lead from the alternator to the charged bank?

4- Do you also have the alt grounded with it's own wire.

5- Where are you sensing the voltage of the bank being charged?

6- Are you running temperature sensors on the alt or batteries?

I will find out these answers today, but in meantime, I have removed alternator and am bringing to alternator repair shop to have them check to see if both are working properly. I had the Balmar rebuilt last season and have never checked the spare Hitachi as it was in boat, and I think was original equipment with Yanmar perhaps a diode had gone bad... although seems unlikely. I never had the Hitachi checked out, but as part of eliminating all possibilities, I will have both checked over.
Last night I was talking to friend who owns a 35 Niagara with same Balmar type alternator, he has a huge flywheel, looks to be around 12" wide or bigger, mine is only about 5 - 6", so he has a big mechanical advantage at the pulley side of alternator at same engine rpms.
I have also removed the 2 1/2 " pulley from Balmar in hopes of getting a smaller one. As I think that I have only a 3 - 1 mechanical advantage from flywheel (Niagara friend's is over 7 - 1). If I can get a smaller alt pulley this will give a better advantage for higher rpms to alt. I realize that the Hitachi alternator with same pulley size was matched at factory, but I thought higher rpm's won't hurt.

Will update when further answers.

Cheers, Jerry

BTW everyone, please take time to check out "Maine Sail" Photo website attached on his post. They are absolutely awesome. Great Job Maine Sail Thanks Jerry!!

 

[Maine Sail]

I have also removed the 2 1/2 " pulley from Balmar in hopes of getting a smaller one. As I think that I have only a 3 - 1 mechanical advantage from flywheel (Niagara friend's is over 7 - 1). If I can get a smaller alt pulley this will give a better advantage for higher rpms to alt. I realize that the Hitachi alternator with same pulley size was matched at factory, but I thought higher rpm's won't hurt.

Will update when further answers.

Cheers, Jerry

BTW everyone, please take time to check out "Maine Sail" Photo website attached on his post. They are absolutely awesome. Great Job Maine Sail Thanks Jerry!!

Don't do that until you have calculated what the alt needs to spin and what it IS spinning. 3:1 is usually more than enough. 7:1 may be spinning the alt faster than it can handle. Max on some Balmars is about 15,000 and at 3k RPM @ 7:1 he'd be at 21,000...

With your alternator, which I am guessing is a 7 series, you are at max hot rated output by 2000 ALTERNATOR RPM. That is 666 engine RPM at a 3:1 ratio.

If this is your alt you can achieve full cold rated output of 80 amps at 2000 ENGINE RPM if you have a 3:1 ratio. Please don't waste your money on a new pulley. Cold ratings don't last for long though so hot is what you want to use and that is a flat graph from 2000 alt RPM to 6000....

 

[Bill Roosa]

Don't go to a smaller pulley

You are at the lower limit for a Vee belt. If you go with a smaller one you will get lots of belt wear and slippage.

 

[flopster12000]

Alternator Update......

Don't do that until you have calculated what the alt needs to spin and what it IS spinning. 3:1 is usually more than enough. 7:1 may be spinning the alt faster than it can handle. Max on some Balmars is about 15,000 and at 3k RPM @ 7:1 he'd be at 21,000...

With your alternator, which I am guessing is a 7 series, you are at max hot rated output by 2000 ALTERNATOR RPM. That is 666 engine RPM at a 3:1 ratio.

If this is your alt you can achieve full cold rated output of 80 amps at 2000 ENGINE RPM if you have a 3:1 ratio. Please don't waste your money on a new pulley. Cold ratings don't last for long though so hot is what you want to use and that is a flat graph from 2000 alt RPM to 6000....

After a week of cruising, my regulator seems to have been trouble, as it stopped working (no LED's), during the week I had to revert to my old backup Hitachi alternator, and excite the internal regulator, by putting a jumper between the stator and positive. This gave me approx. 25 amps with no load. When I arrived home, I ordered the BALMAR MC-612-H Regulator and another Balmar 80 amp alternator to use as primary and relegate my old Balmar to backup status...... Too many belt, bushing, issues to deal with when using different brands while out at sea.

Thanks to all for your postings. The knowledgeable advise has been much appreciated.

Jerry Belbin
flopster12000

 

[Maine Sail]

Jerry,

The Balmar / Xantrex regulators do not like heat! Be sure to install it outside the engine compartment. I have seen a number of failures of the Balmar regs but suspect some of them were due to excess heat. Good luck with the new set up..

 

[Stu Jackson]

Small engine mode with a Balmar MC612 regulator: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4669.0.html

 

[JohnShannon]

By your numbers you hit the CV limit (constant voltage) at 14.4V with about 2000 rpm.

Only took 15A to do this. Sounds like things are working on the regulator side anyway.

Since you believe that your battery was discharged, you had an expectation that a higher charge current would be required before the CV limit would reduce charge current.

This could be explained by excessive resistance in the charging path. Check that your battery connections are good.

The alternator puts out its rated current or its rated voltage whichever is lower. In this case as has been mentioned once the battery hits 14.4V the current gets reduced and it doesn't matter if you have a 55A alternator or a 200A alternator at that point.

 

[druid]

Hey - someone from The Rock! The one place in Canada I haven't been, but plan to change that soon...

I had a similar problem with my Catalina 36 years ago - apparently the PO (a charter company) tried a few standard solutions: bigger house battery, bigger alternator (not installed correctly... )... the but problem turned out to be the path the current had to take to get to the batteries: it went through a connector, 10ft of 16 Ga wire, another connector, an ammeter, another connector, 10ft of 16 Ga wire, another connector, and finally to the battery switch. One of the connectors was so corroded there was an 1/8" gap the current had to jump. I replaced the whole thing with #2 welding cable, and VOILA! - 50 Amps!

Check your wiring and connections.
druid

 

[Maine Sail]

Hey - someone from The Rock! The one place in Canada I haven't been, but plan to change that soon...

I had a similar problem with my Catalina 36 years ago - apparently the PO (a charter company) tried a few standard solutions: bigger house battery, bigger alternator (not installed correctly... )... the but problem turned out to be the path the current had to take to get to the batteries: it went through a connector, 10ft of 16 Ga wire, another connector, an ammeter, another connector, 10ft of 16 Ga wire, another connector, and finally to the battery switch. One of the connectors was so corroded there was an 1/8" gap the current had to jump. I replaced the whole thing with #2 welding cable, and VOILA! - 50 Amps!

Check your wiring and connections.
druid

Druid,

That was a standard Catalina installation and a bad one at that. On my old C-36 there was roughly 20 feet of 10 gauge wire before the alt current got to the batteries. For many owners this is the first upgrade they make. Simply remove the ammeter and replace it with a volt meter and run the alt directly to the starter post or directly to the house bank with 6GA or larger wire depending upon distance to the bank.

Just to put it in perspective running a 100 amp alt at 80%, or 80 amps, through 20 feet of wire to hit a 2% voltage drop would require 1GA wire NOT 10 gauge...

10ga wire would result nearly a 14% voltage drop at 80 amps. Kind of tough to charge your batts at 12.4 volts or 14% less than 14.4 volts. There is a reason many Catalina owners from the mid eighties had a tough time fully charging the batts. Oh and many of the old voltage regulators were a 13.8 target voltage, not 14.2 - 14.6 thus compounding the problems..

This is another reason why the voltage sense wire on external regulators is critically important as it compensates for voltage drop by measuring the voltage at the battery post. Even if your wire had VD the regulator will just up the volts IF you install the sense wire correctly. I was just trouble shooting a job the other day where the VS wire was sensing the alt post not the battery post!! Doh.....