Catalina Capri (Catalina 18) in high winds?

[Monsterfish]

Hello Sailors,

The other day we were sailing on Lake Champlain with a pretty good wind: 12-14 knots and gusty plus some waves, and just about on the edge of white caps start to form. Sailing downwind seemed to be easier than going upwind. We had the jib down (I have no roller furler) and sailed with the main only. The Main wasn't reefed. Between the waves and the wind, it was hard to keep the boat on course, in a straight line. As the boat would get slightly lifted on the wave and catch a bit more wind (a gust) it would want to turn. So it was a lot of work between the main sheet and the rudder. Basically, I had to continuously keep "correcting." With gusts, the boat was healing close to 18 - 20 degrees. Overall, it felt that despite the strong wind we were barely moving forward. We were not in irons, we were between beam reach and close reach. We ended up putting the main down and switching to motor, otherwise, we would have never made it to our destination that day. So it was a great experience and made me think a bit. And there are a few questions I wanted to ask:
1) How easy is it to capsize Catalina 18 (Capri) with a winged keel? (Full keel, not a centerboard) Was I correct worrying at the time of 18-20 degrees heel?
2) Should I have had the main sail down and only the jib up? Or I was correct by having the jib down and only the main sail up?
3) What are the optimal conditions (wind speed and waves wise) for Catalina 18 for 2 people on board plus equipment/provisions for a few days trip? (which I would think makes up the weight of 3 people altogether)

It was somewhat of a weird experience:: the difficulty of keeping the boat on course + heeling + moving very slowly despite the high wind.

Thank you!

 

[Davidasailor26]

As wind speed builds the boat becomes overpowered and all of the extra wind is just drag pulling the boat backwards rather than lift pulling it forward. That’s why it becomes so hard to sail upwind in high winds.

What size is your jib? If it’s a 150% genoa you probably had no choice but to keep it down. If it’s a 110% working jib I think you might’ve been better off carrying just the jib instead of just the main.

You won’t capsize a boat with a ballasted keel from wind. The more the boat heels the more the wind gets dumped off the sails, and the more effective the weight in the keel becomes. 18-20 degrees is a little more than you want for optimal performance but not unsafe. Breaking waves can capsize a boat but they have to be pretty big relative to the beam of the boat.

 

[dlochner]

1) How easy is it to capsize Catalina 18 (Capri) with a winged keel? (Full keel, not a centerboard) Was I correct worrying at the time of 18-20 degrees heel?

Generally speaking capsizing a keel boat is difficult than capsizing a CB boat. On a keel boat it usually requires a combination of wind and high waves to capsize, that is the boat broaches on large wave during a very high gust, meaning well past 20kts. For boat of your vintage, heeling at 20-25 ° is OK. A greater angle of heel will cause the boat side slip more resulting in making less headway. To capsize the boat would need to heel somewhere close to 90° on the face of a wave taller than the beam of your boat.

2) Should I have had the main sail down and only the jib up? Or I was correct by having the jib down and only the main sail up?

No. When going upwind in the conditions you cite, a reefed main and full jib will give you better performance, i.e., improved boat speed and pointing.

it was hard to keep the boat on course, in a straight line. As the boat would get slightly lifted on the wave and catch a bit more wind (a gust) it would want to turn. So it was a lot of work between the main sheet and the rudder. Basically, I had to continuously keep "correcting."

As you go up and down waves and the wind gusts and shifts, it is impossible to hold a straight course. To keep the boat under control the course will be scalloped with the average course sailed being the course you wanted to make. When you sail up the wave the boat will slow down, the apparent wind speed will drop so it is necessary to turn up into the wave to maintain speed and have the apparent wind move forward. On the downhill side the boat will accelerate and the apparent wind will move forward, turning down wind will build up speed for the next wave. Rinse and Repeat.

 

[Monsterfish]

Thank you! The practical season is coming to an end here, due to the weather and the marina closing soon. Glad to continue learning theoretically on hard.

 

[Monsterfish]

What size is your jib? If it’s a 150% genoa you probably had no choice but to keep it down. If it’s a 110% working jib I think you might’ve been better off carrying just the jib instead of just the main.

You won’t capsize a boat with a ballasted keel from wind. The more the boat heels the more the wind gets dumped off the sails, and the more effective the weight in the keel becomes. 18-20 degrees is a little more than you want for optimal performance but not unsafe. Breaking waves can capsize a boat but they have to be pretty big relative to the beam of the boat.

Thank you. Super helpful. My jib currently is 110% Its my estimate. I got the boat with the set of old sails so I am not fully sure. I am planning on getting a new set of sails (main and jib) next season. Would you have any advice on that? The south of lake Champlain especially prior to NY - VT bridge is narrow and shallow and there is not much wind there. Should I be thinking of getting a spinnaker so we could sail better in low winds downwind? Or a bigger, 150% jib would be a good solution? As I understand main sails are standard and do not vary.

Thank you

 

[shemandr]

I see from sailboat data.com that the Capri 22 is a fractional rig. Usually a fractional rig will fly a 110 and rely upon the relatively (Compared to a masthead rig) large main for power. So I wouldn't be looking at a 150. If racing with crew, maybe. But cruising etc., no way.
When approaching overpowered with a fractional rig the first move after depowering the sails is to reef the main and keep the jib. This will give you a more balanced helm.
With regard to the amount of heel less, is better. While the wind will spill off the sail when heeled, usually the rudder will be either stalled or outright being dragged through the water. Hence no flow over the rudder, no lift, poor steering and slow. When sailing in waves you need power. But power in the context of the boat still being on its feet. So you may sail a little fat with reduced sail. Most production sailboats are designed to sail in around 12 kts. The fact that you feel overpowered in that level of wind suggests that you need to be able to depower the sails by flattening them, and if that isn't working getting new sails. I would start with the main.

 

[Monsterfish]

Thank you. This makes a lot of sense and its very helpful.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

@Monsterfish

Your 18 came standard with mainsail and a 135% Genoa if memory serves me right. I was a Catalina dealer selling the 18. I always sold the 18 with CDI roller furling system due to winds in excess of 15 mph. The mainsail should have one set of reef points. I always instructed my clients to reduce sail by furling the jib into a storm jib and reef secondly. I cautioned if sailing in high winds, to reef early.

I use to instruct customers never heel over 12-14 primarily for new sailors. This boat should never heel over 20 degrees.

Catalina no longer builds it

 

[SailingLoto]

Smaller jib and reef your main and she'll probably do a little better. That's a lot of wind to tack into and not a lot of boat.

I sail a c25 and about 14. knots is all I want to take on generally . At a certain point, tacking into the wind becomes less effective as Lee takes over and pushes us back, making gaining headway more difficult.

I'm on a dammed river/lake so my sailing is narrow. Some days going up wind to sail back downwind just isn't fun, or even functional. Those days I just go back and forth.

Most days, half my sailing is upwind and half downwind. On a good day it's a beam reach for 7 miles, then figure out the 180 degree bend and see what that brings.

 

[Monsterfish]

I am still debating whether to get a roller furling. First, it's expensive, second, the installation of it seems somewhat overbearing and confusing, and last I am not sure how much the additional weight and additional conjuncture points weaken the forestay. (I may be wrong...I've read the whole roller furling vs. non-roller furling debate.) I have no problems jumping on the deck and taking down the jib. But I understand I can not "reduce" it. It is either there or it is not there. As per main sail. I know there are options to have a sail with two sets of reef points. My sail has one set but I just didn't have time to install the reefing lines.

 

[bzano]

I have a similar boat, a Hunter 18.5 with a wing keel. As a general rule i don’t sail in winds that exceed the length of the boat, that is winds greater than 18 mph. If you are caught in these conditions, reefing is a must. Also sailing downwind is easier than upwind however an accidental gybe could be dangerous. PFDs are to worn as a precaution. Sounds like made it through ok which is good. Never sailed Lake Champlain but i have sailed nearby Lake George. Winds can get hairy over there too and the weather is extremely changeable.
Good luck & fair winds

 

[jssailem]

But I understand I can not "reduce" it.

Myth not fact.
You can lower the sail and capture it on the deck with a velcro wrap (or 2). You need to reestablish a “tack”, attach a small length of cord to the foredeck (where you would attach the normal tack) and then tie the sail to this line at the height you want the “base” of the sail. You will need to experiment a bit with the amount of sail you want in various conditions. This is what I like to call ‘getting to know your boat.’

Depending on the type of “hanks” used to attach the sail to the forestay I would adapt the way to secure the “reefed“ jib. Finally tension the jib halyard. Poof you have a reefed jib. All for the cost of a couple of Velcro sail ties and a length of cord.

Sailed this way in all levels of wind forces on my 15ft Montgomery.

A “furler” is a nice piece of kit. I agree on your boat it is a bit of overkill. We boat owners spend our money in many ways to trick out our boats. Much like car buffs spend on their cars.

 

[stickinthemud57]

I am still debating whether to get a roller furling. First, it's expensive, second, the installation of it seems somewhat overbearing and confusing, and last I am not sure how much the additional weight and additional conjuncture points weaken the forestay. (I may be wrong...I've read the whole roller furling vs. non-roller furling debate.) I have no problems jumping on the deck and taking down the jib. But I understand I can not "reduce" it. It is either there or it is not there. As per main sail. I know there are options to have a sail with two sets of reef points. My sail has one set but I just didn't have time to install the reefing lines.

Lots of good advice. I concur with those saying fly a jib and reef the main. One sail is OK for just tooling around, but both are needed to properly balance the power when going to windward.

I wrestled with the question of roller furling, and for now I am sticking to my hanked-on foresails. Consensus seems to be that hanked-on jibs perform better (perhaps marginally?). Furlers are expensive, require diligent maintenance, and failure can create some real problems depending on the situation. Reducing the jib sail area using roller reefing results in poor sail shape, so it is a poor substitute for a properly-sized hank-on jib. I like futzing with my boat, I consider sailing to be part of my "keep moving" approach to fitness, so when wrangling the foresails I just remind myself it's this or the gym.

Having a comprehensive sail locker need not be expensive as there are lots of good sources for used sails in decent condition, but you seem prepared to spend some money on new ones. I have gotten almost all of my sails through thesailwarehouse.com and have been pleased with the service and product they offer. I have a 104% jib, a 65% for heavier winds, and a .75-oz nylon drifter for light winds. I opted for the drifter over a spinnaker because it is easier to manage when single-handing. My main and jib are Lite Skin from Rolly Tasker. I have been happy with the mainsail, but saw deterioration issues with the jib owing, I am convinced, to the use of the lighter material on that sail. If you go that route, be sure to NOT get the lightweight material.

I would advise getting a mainsail with at least 2 reefing points. You can sort of approach the functional equivalent of the first reefing point by dumping wind from the main, and being able to go to that second reef when needed is worth the extra expense. I will repeat the oft-offered advice - reef early. It's a lot easier to shake out a reef when underway than put one in. You won't be sacrificing much (if any) speed when sailing upwind, and can actually sail cleaner and faster when the sail load is properly balanced.

 

[dlochner]

Myth not fact.
You can lower the sail and capture it on the deck with a velcro wrap (or 2). You need to reestablish a “tack”, attach a small length of cord to the foredeck (where you would attach the normal tack) and then tie the sail to this line at the height you want the “base” of the sail. You will need to experiment a bit with the amount of sail you want in various conditions. This is what I like to call ‘getting to know your boat.’

Depending on the type of “hanks” used to attach the sail to the forestay I would adapt the way to secure the “reefed“ jib. Finally tension the jib halyard. Poof you have a reefed jib. All for the cost of a couple of Velcro sail ties and a length of cord.

Sailed this way in all levels of wind forces on my 15ft Montgomery.

A “furler” is a nice piece of kit. I agree on your boat it is a bit of overkill. We boat owners spend our money in many ways to trick out our boats. Much like car buffs spend on their cars.

I'm not really following you here, John. If the sail is reefed it needs a clew at the same height as the tack. Your post does not mention the clew. To avoid damage to the sail there needs to be a clew, tack, and head that are sufficiently reinforced to withstand the stress of the higher wind speeds. A reefed jib, also, needs to have reefing lines to secure the loose cloth or it risks getting caught on deck fittings and tearing or causing other problems.

If you are just trying to describe a method to control the sail after it is dropped to the deck, then it would be best to be more explicit and use correct terms. What you describe is not reefing. This can be especially confusing to the novice sailor.

 

[Monsterfish]

Depending on the type of “hanks” used to attach the sail to the forestay I would adapt the way to secure the “reefed“ jib. Finally tension the jib halyard. Poof you have a reefed jib. All for the cost of a couple of Velcro sail ties and a length of cord.

Yes, I like the idea. I already figured out the way to keep the lowered jib on deck (after losing two jib sail bags that got blown off the deck) with two bungee cords system. I totally like the idea of reducing the jib the way you suggested. I am all for logical and safe simplicity.

 

[dlochner]

Depending on the type of “hanks” used to attach the sail to the forestay I would adapt the way to secure the “reefed“ jib. Finally tension the jib halyard. Poof you have a reefed jib. All for the cost of a couple of Velcro sail ties and a length of cord.

This won't work because the clew will be in the wrong place. The clew needs to be at the same level as the tack. If you don't move the clew you will end up with a big baggy section of sail that will be inefficient and tend to cause the boat to heel more and detract from pointing ability.

 

[kappykaplan]

How do you create the new clew with the reefed jib?

 

[Monsterfish]

Having a comprehensive sail locker need not be expensive as there are lots of good sources for used sails in decent condition, but you seem prepared to spend some money on new ones. I have gotten almost all of my sails through thesailwarehouse.com and have been pleased with the service and product they offer. I have a 104% jib, a 65% for heavier winds, and a .75-oz nylon drifter for light winds. I opted for the drifter over a spinnaker because it is easier to manage when single-handing. My main and jib are Lite Skin from Rolly Tasker. I have been happy with the mainsail, but saw deterioration issues with the jib owing, I am convinced, to the use of the lighter material on that sail. If you go that route, be sure to NOT get the lightweight material.

I would advise getting a mainsail with at least 2 reefing points. You can sort of approach the functional equivalent of the first reefing point by dumping wind from the main, and being able to go to that second reef when needed is worth the extra expense. I will repeat the oft-offered advice - reef early. It's a lot easier to shake out a reef when underway than put one in. You won't be sacrificing much (if any) speed when sailing upwind, and can actually sail cleaner and faster when the sail load is properly balanced.

Yes, I like the physicality of sailing. So having to get on deck and run to the bow to lower the jib is an add-on for me I am not hell-bent on the brand new sails. Just want something solid. Current sails are already stretched out, with a few torns ( to the point that when you patch it, the sail tears right next to the edge of the patch) and I also see the stitches unraveling along the edges of the sail. Seems like winter is a good time for discounted sails. Just need to make a smart choice.

 

[dlochner]

Yes, I like the physicality of sailing. So having to get on deck and run to the bow to lower the jib is an add-on for me I am not hell-bent on the brand new sails. Just want something solid. Current sails are already stretched out, with a few torns ( to the point that when you patch it, the sail tears right next to the edge of the patch) and I also see the stitches unraveling along the edges of the sail. Seems like winter is a good time for discounted sails. Just need to make a smart choice.

One of the reasons the boat heels a lot is because of the condition of the sails. Older , worn, baggy sails will cause the boat to heel and reduce its ability to go to weather. New sails are the single biggest improvement that can be made to boats sailing performance, comfort, and safety.

 

[stickinthemud57]

Yes, I like the physicality of sailing. So having to get on deck and run to the bow to lower the jib is an add-on for me I am not hell-bent on the brand new sails. Just want something solid. Current sails are already stretched out, with a few torns ( to the point that when you patch it, the sail tears right next to the edge of the patch) and I also see the stitches unraveling along the edges of the sail. Seems like winter is a good time for discounted sails. Just need to make a smart choice.

Yeah, time to replace those sails. With used sails, hold out for sails that were designed for your boat. I have bought used sails that seemed "close enough" but just didn't perform like original equipment. If you can afford it, go with new. There are few things quite as satisfying as a nice, new, clean, crinkly sail.