I'm considering buying a 1986 Catalina 30 that had difficulty starting from a 'cold start' on a 90 degree day. The broker turned it over 3 times before it 'caught' and he thinks that maybe on the third time he had turned the ignition to what I believe is a glow plug setting. I have a friend who bought a boat that had similar starting issues and the engine lacked compression, leading to a nice new Beta, $15k later. I'd appreciate any thoughts you may have.
Catalina 30 Universal Model 25 Engine Starting Issues
- Thread starter sailnski
- Start date
If it does have low compression, the M25XP is very easy to overhaul and a full overhaul kit only costs $400.
Compression test is easy to do. You need a large metric socket- don't remember the sizes. Harbor Freight sells both the socket set and the compression tester.
Take the fuel tubing nuts loose and remove the fuel return tubing header, remove the injector, and install the compression tester adapter. On reassembly, you should leave the fitting at the injector loose and bleed the air out before final tightening. A proper job will require new sealing washers on the return header and at he base of the injector- both inexpensive.
see my comments on this thread on injector removal
Take the fuel tubing nuts loose and remove the fuel return tubing header, remove the injector, and install the compression tester adapter. On reassembly, you should leave the fitting at the injector loose and bleed the air out before final tightening. A proper job will require new sealing washers on the return header and at he base of the injector- both inexpensive.
see my comments on this thread on injector removal
Universal M25 Fuel Injector Removal
The #3 injector is puddling diesel fuel when the engine is running, and I am debating removing the injector myself and taking it to a diesel shop for test and possible repair. The engine is 35years old in an Oday 34, and I doubt the injectors have ever been removed. Does anyone have suggestion...
forums.sailboatowners.com
I know you're only considering buying this boat, so no need to start buying a rebuild kit and tools yet! This could be quite simple, and there could, indeed, by absolutely nothing wrong.
Your post indicates that you're not entirely familiar with the starting sequence for this engine, nor is the dealer. The Universal Model 25 diesel, one of which I had for 17 years, absolutely won't start without glow plug current, unless it has been running up to operating temp not long previously. So even on a 90º day, if the engine is 'cold,' it will still require glow plug current.
Depending on the engine panel there may be a separate switch for this, or it may be integrated into the keyswitch. You will have to look carefully.
Depending on whether it's wired per the original installation or the glow plug circuit has been upgraded, it may require from 30 seconds to 10 seconds of glow plug current, respectively, before it will start.
For what it's worth, this engine is based on the Kubota D850 tractor engine, and they behaved the same way. It's because (if my memory serves me well) it is not a direct injection engine, but the fuel is injected into a swirl chamber which then feeds the combustion chamber. This results in smoother and more efficient combustion, but until it's up to temperature it's tough to start.
Check this before you imagine a rebuild.
Your post indicates that you're not entirely familiar with the starting sequence for this engine, nor is the dealer. The Universal Model 25 diesel, one of which I had for 17 years, absolutely won't start without glow plug current, unless it has been running up to operating temp not long previously. So even on a 90º day, if the engine is 'cold,' it will still require glow plug current.
Depending on the engine panel there may be a separate switch for this, or it may be integrated into the keyswitch. You will have to look carefully.
Depending on whether it's wired per the original installation or the glow plug circuit has been upgraded, it may require from 30 seconds to 10 seconds of glow plug current, respectively, before it will start.
For what it's worth, this engine is based on the Kubota D850 tractor engine, and they behaved the same way. It's because (if my memory serves me well) it is not a direct injection engine, but the fuel is injected into a swirl chamber which then feeds the combustion chamber. This results in smoother and more efficient combustion, but until it's up to temperature it's tough to start.
Check this before you imagine a rebuild.
What Jviss said: I have a Universal mx25 and it won't start (when cold) without warming up the glow plugs first for 20 - 30 seconds (I haven't done the relay yet), after which it starts right up. The engine is designed this way. Try starting the motor again using the correct procedure. Additionally, don't run starter for more than 30 seconds as you can fill up the exhaust with water which can then make its way back into the engine (bad). Use the glow plugs.
jviss is right. And, if the starter doesn't catch when the start button is pushed, it could be the fuse to the starter solenoid from the key switch is blown or the fuseholder, cleverly hidden undeer the alternator (!) has begun to disintegrate.
Read these:
Critical Upgrades http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html (4 pages)
and more here:
Engines 101 - The BIGGEST & BEST collection of M25 Series Universal Engine Information on the Internet, plus some M35, too
Diesel Engine - c34.org
There is no such thing as an MX25. It's either an M25 or an M25XP.
Read these:
Critical Upgrades http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html (4 pages)
and more here:
Engines 101 - The BIGGEST & BEST collection of M25 Series Universal Engine Information on the Internet, plus some M35, too
Diesel Engine - c34.org
There is no such thing as an MX25. It's either an M25 or an M25XP.
Thank you ALL for your thoughts. Yes, since I don't own the boat yet, so I'll try activating the glow plugs for the time period indicated above and see if it starts easily after that. The starter has no problems engaging, I meant that engine just took a long time to start. As far as activating the glow plugs, I believe it's part of the keyed switch mechanism - one turn to the right for on, and one more turn for glow plugs. As far as I can tell, it's a Model 25 (no reference to MXP). Thanks also for the information on compression testing / rebuilding / info links / and where to find tools - all very helpful!
jv
there’s a few things that can cause hard starting (i don’t mean hard cranking). Fuel, Preheat, Fuel line vacuum leak, primary Fuel filter vac leak, secondary fuel filter vac leak, etc etc.
post a pic of the panel - different ones were used. Do she crank with a button or the key switch?
is there a preheat switch (it could be a button or momentary toggle.)
defo check out the C-34 resources and for expert help cross-post questions over on the official Catalina 30 Association forum (1,600 experts on there.)
there’s a few things that can cause hard starting (i don’t mean hard cranking). Fuel, Preheat, Fuel line vacuum leak, primary Fuel filter vac leak, secondary fuel filter vac leak, etc etc.
post a pic of the panel - different ones were used. Do she crank with a button or the key switch?
is there a preheat switch (it could be a button or momentary toggle.)
defo check out the C-34 resources and for expert help cross-post questions over on the official Catalina 30 Association forum (1,600 experts on there.)
It's an '86, same year as mine. I am guessing that you have a glow plug button and a start button. When my key switch failed a few years ago, I discovered that Catalina had installed a three position switch, but only connected two poles so it was really only a two position switch, I or O!!!
It should look like this unless a PO changed it:
I replaced the useless three position switch with an I/O, looks the same from outside.
Turn switch on, engage glow plugs for 30 seconds (15 if there's a solenoid installed, NOT OEM!), wait a tad, hit start. Don't hold the GP when you hit start. One at a time.
Let's get the engine nomenclature right, please. Tom, you wouldn't want folks calling you Mot, would you? There is no "Model 25." There is an M25 or an M25XP. There is also an M25XPB, a very diferent engine than the first two (and rare OEM in C30s or C34s). These two are almost identical except for a few extra HP, a 3" HX and the corrected alternator bracket in the M25XP. That's why you need to read the Critical Upgrades about the bracket if it's an M25, which I am almost sure it is.
Good luck.
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I will second the comment about the critical updates. I follow three C30 forums and after all of these years, you still hear about a cracked cam chain housing that broke because of the alternator bracket every few months. It is the #1 reason that M25's get replaced given that the part is made from unobtanium.
Stu, you are absolutely wrong about that! See the Service Manual from Universal, entitled "Universal Model 15 & 25."
https://www.westerbeke.com/technical manual/200151_m15-m25-5411-5421_technical_man.pdf
And, the sales brochure, where it's called the "The Universal Diesel Model 25:"
https://www.westerbeke.com/advanced specs/m25 sales literature.pdf
Sheesh!
Yes, thanks - I'll check out the Critical Updates. Pics below. Looks like the panel was replaced based upon the Catalina Direct logo. Broker said current owner replaced engine wiring, so maybe this was done at the same time. Button below temp gauge is pushed to Start. The keyed ignition switch is below low oil pressure lamp. I was guessing glow plugs initiated by turning all the way to the right (see stock pic below)? Just heard that the current owner says he activates glow plugs for 30-45 seconds and then it might take 10 seconds of turning over before it starts. Going out tomorrow afternoon to see it start again.
Oh golly, I was wrong. Darn, yet again.
I'll succumb to Model 25, labeled on the darned engine itself by those literate engineers at Universal, and in those pesky "manuals." [RTFM - Brian, F stands for Funny.]
Now, can we go back to calling it the M25 like skippers have been doing for only the last 35 years?
Thanks.
I'll succumb to Model 25, labeled on the darned engine itself by those literate engineers at Universal, and in those pesky "manuals." [RTFM - Brian, F stands for Funny.]
Now, can we go back to calling it the M25 like skippers have been doing for only the last 35 years?
Thanks.
You've got it right. Kubota's are low compression diesels in addition to the swirl chambers. They will not cold start without the glow plugs no matter what the ambient temperature. Absolutely normal and by design. Any other make of engine that doesn't have glow plugs or swirl chambers should start within one revolution on a warm day. Any longer than that indicates a problem. Not so with a Kubota based engine and that includes Betas as well as Universals.
LOTS of glow plug required. . . . as others have said.
Old Universal Diesels, many models, require liberal glow plug.
My Model 5411 manual from 1982 states 30-60 seconds of glow plug. 30 seconds does it for me, maybe 20 seconds on a hot day or if the engine is warm--she will then fire right up. Fellow Universal owners on my dock all experience the same thing.
When I bought the boat and saw the previous owner use 30+ seconds of glow plug, I thought he was really overdoing it and/or something was wrong. I had rarely seen my Yanmar diesel sailing buddies use glow plugs at all. . . .
After looking into it, I realized this is normal for our Universals. So, moral of the story, give it liberal glow plug
Old Universal Diesels, many models, require liberal glow plug.
My Model 5411 manual from 1982 states 30-60 seconds of glow plug. 30 seconds does it for me, maybe 20 seconds on a hot day or if the engine is warm--she will then fire right up. Fellow Universal owners on my dock all experience the same thing.
When I bought the boat and saw the previous owner use 30+ seconds of glow plug, I thought he was really overdoing it and/or something was wrong. I had rarely seen my Yanmar diesel sailing buddies use glow plugs at all. . . .
After looking into it, I realized this is normal for our Universals. So, moral of the story, give it liberal glow plug
Unless you install a glow plug solenoid. Why? Because the wiring run has to go all the way up to the cockpit panel and back. Put in a solenoid, save time on heating the plugs and the excessive wiring run.
The length of time for the glow plugs has a lot to do with how they get their power. If the power comes directly from the switch (factory installation) I have always heard 30 or more seconds.
My 1988 M25XP has the power supplied by a solenoid and I hold the button for 10 seconds and it fires 90% of the time. If it does not fire after two revolutions, I wait for 5 more seconds before the second attempt. In 21 years, I do not remember needing a third attempt. I do time it (1one-thousand, 2 one-thousand, ...)
I have heard others say that they release the glow button to crank but I hold the button continuously until several seconds after the engine starts. works for me but YMMV
My 1988 M25XP has the power supplied by a solenoid and I hold the button for 10 seconds and it fires 90% of the time. If it does not fire after two revolutions, I wait for 5 more seconds before the second attempt. In 21 years, I do not remember needing a third attempt. I do time it (1one-thousand, 2 one-thousand, ...)
I have heard others say that they release the glow button to crank but I hold the button continuously until several seconds after the engine starts. works for me but YMMV