Catalina 22 tilt-down keel

Status
Not open for further replies.
Dec 16, 2007
19
- - Merritt Island, FL
I am in need of a new or used (in good condition) tilt-down keel for my Catalina 22. The original was found missing when I hauled for a bottom job. The pin is still in place and appears to be in good condition. Cable was broken but can be easily replaced while dry docked. Has anyone here been faced with this problem - if so - I would appreciate any advice on my options. The boat is 1979 vintage and requires only minor maintainance otherwise. Are new keels available from Catalina Yachts? If so how expensive are they - Hopefully not more than the current value of the boat?? The storms here in FL may have caused a few 22 Catalinas to be salvaged - if so maybe I could contact the ship yards here-abouts and find one ?? Any help or suggestions would be appreciated - Thanks - L. P. Scott
 
Feb 28, 2005
184
Catalina 22 1909 North East, Md.
Look where you tie up or moor your boat!

Look where you tie up or moor your boat, that is the most likely place that it would have come off, other wise I believe it would have caused a dramatic change in the handling of the boat, not to mention some sort of loud sound when the cable snapped. Get a 100Lb pull salvage magnet and fish for it, no that magnet will not lift it but it will sure help to find it, than you can find a way to lift it out of the water. It will sure be cheaper than buying another one.
 
May 24, 2007
19
Catalina 22 Kenosha, Wi
Look Here

Look in the classified ads on this site. There is a guy who is parting out a Catalina 22 and has a keel. I believe He lives in Ohio so shipping could cost you a bit. But it might be worth checking out. Hope this helps.
 

Bilbo

.
Aug 29, 2005
1,265
Catalina 22 Ohio
Missing keel???

"The pin is still in place and appears to be in good condition. " Yes for sure this would have been noticed when this little 550 lb weight fell off and snapped the cable if you were on board and it would have been noticed if you sailed her because the missing keel would have caused a lot of windage to leeward. For example a broad reach would have needed a great deal of rudder towards the lee side of the boat and she'd a heeled over like never before in a slight breeze. Aside from piracy from underneath, the only way that I think that this could have happened is if the hole in the keel wore through from rocking action at the mooring/dockage. I think that this can happen more easily if the keel is kept up while in the water because of the wear location relative to the back edge of the keel. If it happened as I imagine, the keel is probably on the bottom where the boat was moored. It may be salvageable from the bottom and repairable if this hole wore through. There is a sleeve from CD that can be placed in the hole to tighten it up and a good welder can add something to hold things together. I'd think. If the keel was up, I would check the area around and behind the volcano hole where the cable goes up into the hull. This could have been damaged and it could have cracked the fiberglass like a can opener just behind the volcano. OPtions are for salvage, replacement from another boat, buy new (Cost a lot of money alone in shipping) or maybe have another one made locally if you know a talented individual.
 

Ken

.
Jun 1, 2004
1,182
Catalina 22 P. P. Y. C.
AWOL Swing Keel

Interesting, if your keel indeed wear through it would be the second I know of the other being in Nags Head NC. That owner had the keel repaired, although the work was a very labor intense repair. If I were you I would start looking on Craig's list and even post your need for a keel there. There are some keels out there, even if as Bilbo's advises you have to sleeve the pin hole. It's just about guaranteed you will have to do this. Your other choice would be buy one of the "new" keels, you can get out of the shipping cost by having it shipped to a dealer on a boat. You would of course have the wait until they have a boat delivered. New keel is around $1250.00 In the past there have been several listed here in the "Gear Wanted/For Sale" section. You could also post you need for one there. I know of two keels in Upper Fl., If memory servers me both need the sleeve but other than that are in good shape. If you think you would be interested, we can work out how you can get in touch with the owner.
 
A

Aldo

Maybe still one in Northeast Maryland

L.P.: I was contacted by someone from Northeast Maryland in July who had one that he would sell "very reasonably priced", in his words. Do you want me to send him an e-mail message and see if he still has the keel? I have already helped put 1 or 2 boats back together like this, and it makes me feel good doing it. I don't have a clue on how much it would cost to ship a 550 lb. keel from Maryland to Florida. Aldo
 
Dec 16, 2007
19
- - Merritt Island, FL
Catalina 22 Keel found and Purchased

Thanks Guys -- One and All!! Your inputs on my keel delemma were all welcomed!! I located a refurbished keel for my Catalina 22 from the Catalina Dealer just 2 miles north of my marina in Rockledge, FL -- Yes as many of you pointed out buying a used keel is very risky business sight unseen -- But I inspected this keel today and found it sound and newly refurbished (glassed in) and ready to paint. The dealer was redoing a 70's vintage 22 for his daughters to go play in this spring and this one looked fine with a new sleeve epoxyed-in. I plan to purchase new hardware for the pivot pin and spacer set and the really good news is he only wanted $900 plus $75 to forklift carry it to the marina - The new unit from Catalina Direct is (now) priced at $1422 plus about $160 for the hardware. I really appreciate the prompt feedback and advice you folks offered. Thanks again! And --------- Merry Christmas to ALL! L. Patrick Scott
 

Bilbo

.
Aug 29, 2005
1,265
Catalina 22 Ohio
Wear through

" Interesting, if your keel indeed wear through it would be the second I know of the other being in Nags Head NC. That owner had the keel repaired, although the work was a very labor intense repair." Well Ken, I can't imagine any other reason that would explain this other than those Iron eating lamprays ;-) I also mentioned this because the casting process can lead to (not sure of the words) voids in the casting that could be located between the pin hole and the back/side of the keel. This could cause the wear factor to increase. Then too if the boat is moored or docked in a place where the rocking action of waves or wakes is going to increase the wear. I would also suspect that our internet sources represent a small portion of reality. I know that one source of C22 info listed not one 22 on my lake registered at that web page currently and I've collected a personal list of about 20 of these things on our little lake. I realize that the keels rarely fall off but this is always something I'm thinking about. I wish that these 4 bolts were more substantial I guess. In one instance I've read of the bolts breaking while the boat's being transposted on the trailer. This solution of a good condition used blade is probably the best and easiest and is cheaper, I'm sure than salvage divers.
 

Ken

.
Jun 1, 2004
1,182
Catalina 22 P. P. Y. C.
inspection

I believe the answer to this not happening (losing a keel) is taking the time to inspect the keel, pin, along with replacing the bolts/lock washers and the keel cable every two years, no doubt those who trailer may get another year on the cable. They also have the advantage of being able to inspect the keel more often. On the lost keel I spoke of in NC, the pin had worn through the keel. Surprising it was not in a straight line through the thinnest part, but in a ziz zaz of about four inches. All this material was cut out and new welded in. It was a very interesting repair. Bilbo, if it will help put your mind at ease, a friend told me the 1500lb keel on his 25 uses the same bolts as ours.. Now that is a piece of iron!
 

Bilbo

.
Aug 29, 2005
1,265
Catalina 22 Ohio
1500

I've also heard that the 25 uses the same bolts. From CD, the pin is the same 1" diameter. My point in the prior post is that I can't imagine any other cause of the keel disappearing with broken cable unless this pin wore through the keel metal. With, our new to us boat, I inspected the assembly after the first (1 month season) because the cable was shredding near the top. I think that two things were happening there. The boat has been in the water during the seasons and the turning ball developed a flat side,worn through from cable friction. This flat side and lake mud in turn caused the ball to stop turning and to start wearing through the cable where it was usually rubbing. (near the top end). The real cause I believe is that when the boat sits at dock, the wave action (when the keel is up) causes the keel at the back/bottom to wag from left to right just about 1 or 2 inches and this is causing the actual turning ball wear since there is the highest load on this point with the keel up rather than down all the way. The obvious soluting would be to keep the keel down but my dock is relatively shallow. At the end of the season the depth finder was reading 3 ft. Actually one could add another 10 " of soft mud to that but it's still below the down keel depth of 5 ft and there's no telling how shallow the Army Corps would have lowered the lake if they needed to. So my solution is probably goign to be to try to leave the keel at different settings. I think that the lake has been deeper at spring than at fall for example. I am also investigating these "rocker-stoppers" or something in that kind of an idea to prevent less rolling of the boat at the dock. Maybe even start applying the keel lockdown when it's sitting even with the keel up. I think that this rocking also causes some wear on the shrouds but I have not had an issue as yet. Other boats have been demasted in my dockage area from rocking during storms and I tend to favor the 8 stays that we have on our 22s for this reason. Then too, the more L/R wagging the keel does, the more the other pivot parts get wear. These of course include the pin and the keel pin hole in the keel casting. The zig-zag pattern of the Nag's Head boat was probably caused by the keel alternating from either full up or full down at the dock for seasons. So, after the 2nd season, I have inspected the setup and sure enough the turning ball has a few flat sections that I would say even have a "fingerprint" that mimicks the cable twist patterns and the keel pin has a very slight concave wear on the top side of it what the keel's weight rocks on top of. Apparently the keel pin doesn't rotate with the keel or if it does it rests always at the same location. I think that some of the parts like the bolts can suffer from fatigue. I know that certain aircraft parts are prone to such as the wing support structures that are regularly flexing. So I think that you are very much correct that depending on the location, a good average is every 2 years for inspection and automatic replacement of the keel bolts. I think that CD recommends this for a better reason other than just their desire to sell those bolts. And that this IS NOT an issue where we can ever say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
 
Dec 16, 2007
19
- - Merritt Island, FL
Question ??

Sorry if this comes thru in multiple messages - Seems to be a problem on the server - Question -- ?? I'm now threading my keel cable thru the guide ball - On which side of the slotted ball do I place the cable?? Fwd or Aft? Or does it matter? Thanks for the help-! Patrick Scott
 

Bilbo

.
Aug 29, 2005
1,265
Catalina 22 Ohio
It matters

The cable goes aft of the ball. Othewise it will saw a hole in your hull. BTW: It helps to wrap the ball slot with a string to hold it from falling when inserting the pin into it. http://www.chipford.com/chip_ahoy_8.htm This first shot is from the cabin looking back towards the stern.
 
S

sappysailor

Lost Keel

I found my swing keel 150 feet from the shore and pulled it to the bank with my F-150 and lots of anchor line. Now I am completing the welding and bushing insertion. Let me know if you have any questions about the procedures I used for the repairs.
 

Ken

.
Jun 1, 2004
1,182
Catalina 22 P. P. Y. C.
Cool

How about taking a bunch of pictures? Most of us get so caught up into the repairs we forget others would like to see how/what we've done.
 

Bilbo

.
Aug 29, 2005
1,265
Catalina 22 Ohio
yes

as Ken wrote, some photos wold be great and a description of exactly what happened to cause it to fall off would be nice as well as your repair procedures. There is a photo forum section here if you don't use another source.
 
S

sappysailor

keel repair pictures

Ok, I will spend some time over the weekend getting pictures and compiling some info on the keel repair. I raised the boat on a lift and inspected; found that the bolts for the starboard hanger were missing and appear to have worked loose. The port hanger bolts were snapped off. I drew the conclusion that the missing bolts led to the failure of the other 2. This happened at the dock and is the reason I got such a great deal on this boat. The hanger parts are at the bottom of the lake and I have not been able to locate them so far. I will figure out a way to make the photos accessible to you all. More to follow.
 
S

sappysailor

keel repair pictures

Ok, I will spend some time over the weekend getting pictures and compiling some info on the keel repair. I raised the boat on a lift and inspected; found that the bolts for the starboard hanger were missing and appear to have worked loose. The port hanger bolts were snapped off. I drew the conclusion that the missing bolts led to the failure of the other 2. This happened at the dock and is the reason I got such a great deal on this boat. The hanger parts are at the bottom of the lake and I have not been able to locate them so far. I will figure out a way to make the photos accessible to you all. More to follow.
 
Dec 16, 2007
19
- - Merritt Island, FL
My keel simply wore thru !

Hi guys - This seems a real common C22 problem - Huh? My keel simply wore thru the thin metal area above the pin joint - And after breaking the cable it vanished into the muck in the bottom of my slip on the Indian River - The pin, it's hangers and bolts were all in functional condition when I hauled the boat. The pin was significantly gauled where it wore thru the keel. This happened after an extended (neglected) period in the water - about 13 years !! I believe a hauling and refurbishment of the keel and fittings once each 2 to 3 years (same for bottom painting) would be an appropriate maintenance plan. Thanks for the continued interesting discussion (and pics). BTW - Another small item -- the lock washers on the hanger bolts were completely collapsed (ineffective) - I replaced all hardware except the bronze hangers.
 
Dec 16, 2007
19
- - Merritt Island, FL
My keel simply wore thru !

Hi guys - This seems a real common C22 problem - Huh? My keel simply wore thru the thin metal area above the pin joint - And after breaking the cable it vanished into the muck in the bottom of my slip on the Indian River - The pin, it's hangers and bolts were all in functional condition when I hauled the boat. The pin was significantly gauled where it wore thru the keel. This happened after an extended (neglected) period in the water - about 13 years !! I believe a hauling and refurbishment of the keel and fittings once each 2 to 3 years (same for bottom painting) would be an appropriate maintenance plan. Thanks for the continued interesting discussion (and pics). BTW - Another small item -- the lock washers on the hanger bolts were completely collapsed (ineffective) - I replaced all hardware except the bronze hangers.
 

Bilbo

.
Aug 29, 2005
1,265
Catalina 22 Ohio
wow 2 keels fell off

This is most unfortunate. I think that this is not very commin for this to happen this frequently. "sappysailor" I think that one thing that I'd do at this point is go over everything. You may have got a bargain that is worth it or not but I would check other things. Fiberglass cracks, blisters and damage. I'd check for leaks from rain or hull leaks, I'd check the wood work for rot. (Like the bottoms of the bulkheads and the various storage areas that are divided by wood plywood partitions. Check the deck out by the mast for sturdiness. I know that certain things are different between the years so mind what I say. Ken may have better info. but another thing I did would be to go around all of the screws and bolts checking for loose ones. This includes the rudder, the motor mounts, all of the wood work. If you have an old or not so new outboard have it checked over and cleaned periodically . Take a good look at your rope lines and sails for chafe and wear. Look at your shrouds for wear and meathooks. Look at your mast and boom extrusons and such for cracks and bends. In case I missed something, I would investigate the loads of information that is on the internet already (like http://www.chipford.com/ ) about typical maintenance procedures. I guess that these boats aren't made to work woth out some regular preventative manintenance. Hence some of the boat names like "hole in the wallet", "last penney"...you get the drift. Then when you do get your keel back on, check for side play where it can swing if it's suspended on the trailer or on slings. The more that the keel wobbles to the starboard and port as in on a mooring or dock, the more this will speed up the wear that caused that keel to fall off. Checking this wobble with the keel up is easy but checking with it down make take some jacking of the hull. Stopping this side play may actually involve removing the keel hangers and replacing them with new ones that would have to be be ground down to fit more snugly. Of course the hanger bolts shoud be replaced every few years. I am convinced that the turning ball and lifting equipment should have a close eyeball every year .....or more often. I am always feeling how the keel lifts when I crank the winch. If it starts to hit (as in not smooth) the turning ball may be getting a flat side and this isn't good for the cable. If you guys can post things about this and/or photos, it would be great if only for the fact that you may draw attention to an important safety precaution for our boats. You may save another person from this problem or you may help another that is having this problem. hmmm...Makes me wonder if any C22 Pilots have posted a regular safety/maintenance schedule on the net. Now I know for sure that the "rocker stoppers" thingies at dock are a good idea. Thanks ~bilbo N.E. Ohio
 
Status
Not open for further replies.