I'm new to my boat this year and am a bit leary of pushing her to the limit until I become more familiar with her capabilities. Has anyone come close to actually capsizing a lead keel boat? I have a small cruising Hunter 25 with 1800 lbs of ballast (lead) and a 200lbs inboard diesel. Last weekend with a genoa 150 I kept pointing her into the wind as I was unsure whether she could take 18mph winds without going over. The boat is quite heavy for her size however I need to have a bit of confidence in pushing the capabilities higher. Any feedback appreciated, thanks.
Capsizing
- Thread starter Before the Bell
- Start date
- Status
no way
There is no way you are going to capsize that boat in 18kts of wind no matter how hard you try, unless you have some monstrous wave action to accompany it. When the rail hits the water (if even it does) the boat will want to round up. Your best bet is to check out the sail trim archives on this site... they will enable you to keep her on her feet. When in doubt, let it out. Oh, and a 150 is a little large for 18mph winds...
There is no way you are going to capsize that boat in 18kts of wind no matter how hard you try, unless you have some monstrous wave action to accompany it. When the rail hits the water (if even it does) the boat will want to round up. Your best bet is to check out the sail trim archives on this site... they will enable you to keep her on her feet. When in doubt, let it out. Oh, and a 150 is a little large for 18mph winds...
Got waves?
There are people here who know far more about this than me, but I believe to capsize a keel boat you must have a combination of strong wind and waves. Theoretically, wind alone won't do it because as the boat heels over the sail becomes more horizontal and it spills wind. That's not to say you won't be a bit uncomfortable hanging from the lifelines, but it won't capsize unless the sail, deck, cockpit, etc., snags enough water to keep the boat from righting. OK... someone who actually knows this... please elaborate!
There are people here who know far more about this than me, but I believe to capsize a keel boat you must have a combination of strong wind and waves. Theoretically, wind alone won't do it because as the boat heels over the sail becomes more horizontal and it spills wind. That's not to say you won't be a bit uncomfortable hanging from the lifelines, but it won't capsize unless the sail, deck, cockpit, etc., snags enough water to keep the boat from righting. OK... someone who actually knows this... please elaborate!
Relax and enjoy
Generaly the only thing that will capsize a keel yacht is either waves or massive swells for as soon as your yacht begins to lay flat the wind spills out of the sail. Most likely tho you would have rounded up by now. Of course there may be that you get one hell of a puff without warning but really it would have to be a sudden gust of over 30-40 knots to do do that. I don't think I have ever taken a yacht to the limit apart from small dingies capsizing too many years ago to remember.
Generaly the only thing that will capsize a keel yacht is either waves or massive swells for as soon as your yacht begins to lay flat the wind spills out of the sail. Most likely tho you would have rounded up by now. Of course there may be that you get one hell of a puff without warning but really it would have to be a sudden gust of over 30-40 knots to do do that. I don't think I have ever taken a yacht to the limit apart from small dingies capsizing too many years ago to remember.
For most boats, carrying a #1 in 18kts is beyond the range of the sail. The boat will heel excessivly and therefore not sail as efficiently as it would with a smaller sail. However, that is just not enough wind to capsize the boat. As the boat heels, wind(and therefore power) is spilled out of the sails. The further over the boat goes the less the amount of wind acting on the sails. I would highly recommend you look for a #3 for these kinds of conditions. The boat will sail flatter and with better speed and be much more under control.
Phil ---
There are two versions of the H25 deep and shoal keel. A shoal keel version can if pushed over too far can totally 'spin-out' when the keel loses its 'bite' and the keel will 'skid'. During the 'skid phase' if the 'rail'/deck 'digs in' , then the boat can possibly 'broach to windward'. The Cherubini designed H27 SDs were quite 'famous' for that. Mr. 'Bell' - With an 'unstable' wind (lots of 'quartering' gusts) a 150 is usually too much for any boat above at or above 18kts - depending on your own personal 'pucker factor'. Typical design for 18kts is usually that a full main and 100% jib will have the boat sailing on the 'lines' that the designer intended. However there are ways to 'depower' such a sail (150% etc.) such as 'bar-hard' halyard tension (draft forward) and moving the fairleads well back (opens the leech at the top). Until you get to know your boat better and still want to 'experiment' with llarger sails in the higher wind ranges -- For 'extra insurance', simply close/lock the companion way and make sure all the cockpit lockers cant inadvertantly open if you go over tooooo far and take a lot of green water into the cockpit or though open portlights, etc.. Its OK to take a knockdown (if nothing else to restore ones own humility) but you dont want the boat to flood inside when you do. Most companionway boards need an additional 'restraining' system so they cant 'fall-out' when the boat is laying over on her beam ends .... simple rope lanyard to hold the boards in place will do it. Use snap shackels, etc. on the hasps of the cockpit seat lockers to stop them from opening at the wrong time.
There are two versions of the H25 deep and shoal keel. A shoal keel version can if pushed over too far can totally 'spin-out' when the keel loses its 'bite' and the keel will 'skid'. During the 'skid phase' if the 'rail'/deck 'digs in' , then the boat can possibly 'broach to windward'. The Cherubini designed H27 SDs were quite 'famous' for that. Mr. 'Bell' - With an 'unstable' wind (lots of 'quartering' gusts) a 150 is usually too much for any boat above at or above 18kts - depending on your own personal 'pucker factor'. Typical design for 18kts is usually that a full main and 100% jib will have the boat sailing on the 'lines' that the designer intended. However there are ways to 'depower' such a sail (150% etc.) such as 'bar-hard' halyard tension (draft forward) and moving the fairleads well back (opens the leech at the top). Until you get to know your boat better and still want to 'experiment' with llarger sails in the higher wind ranges -- For 'extra insurance', simply close/lock the companion way and make sure all the cockpit lockers cant inadvertantly open if you go over tooooo far and take a lot of green water into the cockpit or though open portlights, etc.. Its OK to take a knockdown (if nothing else to restore ones own humility) but you dont want the boat to flood inside when you do. Most companionway boards need an additional 'restraining' system so they cant 'fall-out' when the boat is laying over on her beam ends .... simple rope lanyard to hold the boards in place will do it. Use snap shackels, etc. on the hasps of the cockpit seat lockers to stop them from opening at the wrong time.
water ballast
What are the behavioral characteristics of a water ballast boat, as far as capsizing?
What are the behavioral characteristics of a water ballast boat, as far as capsizing?
Time and Experience
at first, 20% heeling also lead to letting it out to flatten us out. Over the years, more experience has lead to more confidence (perhaps over confidence) where heeling more and burying the rail can be fun. Its always best when you can "push the limit" more on someone elses boat (like a charter - I never said that) than your own. In the attached picture, we constantly had water over the rail....what a ride. Prolem to remember is that too much heeling, and you loose rudder control (too much of rudder out of teh water) and you tend to quickly round up. IMO, experiment, push a little more each time, but these boats are very hard to capsize. They tend to tell you they had enough and flatten themselves out.
at first, 20% heeling also lead to letting it out to flatten us out. Over the years, more experience has lead to more confidence (perhaps over confidence) where heeling more and burying the rail can be fun. Its always best when you can "push the limit" more on someone elses boat (like a charter - I never said that) than your own. In the attached picture, we constantly had water over the rail....what a ride. Prolem to remember is that too much heeling, and you loose rudder control (too much of rudder out of teh water) and you tend to quickly round up. IMO, experiment, push a little more each time, but these boats are very hard to capsize. They tend to tell you they had enough and flatten themselves out.
Maybe with a Spinnaker
You may get a good knock down while running a kite, because the kite does not spill the wind unless the trimmer eases/blows the sheet. Never cleat a spin sheet. A quick unexpected gust and over you go, with so much pressure on the sheet you cant get it uncleated in time to keep the boat from broaching. I've seen boats with their spreaders in the water. Lots of fun to watch but not fun on board. You have to work pretty hard to get that far over with only white sails, maybe with a down draft from a hillside or building. Go have fun, and remember: When in doubt - let it out. Or just hang on and let her spin around into the wind, just make sure you have room to round up and not hit anything, once she starts to spin, there may be no stopping her. As stated before, throw up a 100% or smaller, and be ready to reef the main early, you will have a better ride and everyone on board will feel confident. If you THINK you may need to reef, you probably do and should do it right then, It is always easier to take out a reef than to have to put one in at 20 kts when you really need it.
You may get a good knock down while running a kite, because the kite does not spill the wind unless the trimmer eases/blows the sheet. Never cleat a spin sheet. A quick unexpected gust and over you go, with so much pressure on the sheet you cant get it uncleated in time to keep the boat from broaching. I've seen boats with their spreaders in the water. Lots of fun to watch but not fun on board. You have to work pretty hard to get that far over with only white sails, maybe with a down draft from a hillside or building. Go have fun, and remember: When in doubt - let it out. Or just hang on and let her spin around into the wind, just make sure you have room to round up and not hit anything, once she starts to spin, there may be no stopping her. As stated before, throw up a 100% or smaller, and be ready to reef the main early, you will have a better ride and everyone on board will feel confident. If you THINK you may need to reef, you probably do and should do it right then, It is always easier to take out a reef than to have to put one in at 20 kts when you really need it.
Two thoughts
1. It FEELS like it's going to capsize, and generally scares the bejesus out of women. But modern sailboats are engineered to come upwind quickly, no doubt to keep women from abandoning sailing... or their skipper. 2. I had a 70-year-old fellow out one March and took a 35 mph gust that blew off a new windvane from the top of the mast and startled both of us to 45-50 degrees. I apologized for the inconvenience, and he replied, "Heck, let's do it again!" So a lot of heeling is simply getting used to it, the experience curve.
1. It FEELS like it's going to capsize, and generally scares the bejesus out of women. But modern sailboats are engineered to come upwind quickly, no doubt to keep women from abandoning sailing... or their skipper. 2. I had a 70-year-old fellow out one March and took a 35 mph gust that blew off a new windvane from the top of the mast and startled both of us to 45-50 degrees. I apologized for the inconvenience, and he replied, "Heck, let's do it again!" So a lot of heeling is simply getting used to it, the experience curve.
capsize
With ome [100%] jib you're not going over in 20 knotts of wind. You may wet her toe, but in my world that's fun... Jim
With ome [100%] jib you're not going over in 20 knotts of wind. You may wet her toe, but in my world that's fun... Jim
She can take it
The boat can stand more than you can. As usual, Rich's remarks are right on the money. This spring we had lots of wind for the first two races, and experienced a hard blast that also represented a shift of about 15 degrees. We rounded up, backwinded the genoa, and broached when the sheet fouled the winch handle, which had been left in the winch. We took a little solid water over the cabintop and observers said we put a spreader tip in the water. She popped back up, but it took a little while to get our affairs in order and we had to settle for a 2nd after leading most of the last leg. Don't leave handles in sheet winches on windy days.
The boat can stand more than you can. As usual, Rich's remarks are right on the money. This spring we had lots of wind for the first two races, and experienced a hard blast that also represented a shift of about 15 degrees. We rounded up, backwinded the genoa, and broached when the sheet fouled the winch handle, which had been left in the winch. We took a little solid water over the cabintop and observers said we put a spreader tip in the water. She popped back up, but it took a little while to get our affairs in order and we had to settle for a 2nd after leading most of the last leg. Don't leave handles in sheet winches on windy days.
Good suggestions
I guess one thing that I forgot to mention (thought it was obvious - my mistake) was that this was a charter boat from Moorings, not my boat. I always relax the topping lift for better shape, on this boat we were told not to touch teh topping lift. As for standing rigging, again, not something we could adjust. Same goes for the headsail and any trim aids. The over tensioning of the headsail is worth noting. We had a heck of a time pointing this boat. No matter how much I tried, she just wouldn't point any higher w/o loosing power. We came in forth overall that day out of 9 boats, second in our class. The 45 ft catamaran kicked everyone's butt (as it should) and since it was all for fun, there was no time adjustments.
I guess one thing that I forgot to mention (thought it was obvious - my mistake) was that this was a charter boat from Moorings, not my boat. I always relax the topping lift for better shape, on this boat we were told not to touch teh topping lift. As for standing rigging, again, not something we could adjust. Same goes for the headsail and any trim aids. The over tensioning of the headsail is worth noting. We had a heck of a time pointing this boat. No matter how much I tried, she just wouldn't point any higher w/o loosing power. We came in forth overall that day out of 9 boats, second in our class. The 45 ft catamaran kicked everyone's butt (as it should) and since it was all for fun, there was no time adjustments.
- Status