I am only an intermediate day sailor on a small lake, but I am very frustrated in that I have capsized my Hunter 170 twice this summer. The salesman, from whom I purchased the boat new last year said "you will have to TRY to flip this boat". Not so...Last time, after an experienced skipper at the helm, me manning the boom, and a colleague handling the jib, all of us doing their job in a blustery 15-20 knot wind, the thing still flipped. The experienced helmsman lifted the mast, whereupon the darn thing took off by itself, with noone aboard, went a hundred yards then capsized again, only this time turtle-ing all the way. I'm either doing something terribly wrong, or I'm getting rid of this particular size/type boat. Any suggestions?
- Status
Capsize
Looking at the 170 specs it is not a ballasted boat and it can certainly capsize if you are not careful under windy conditions, despite what a salesman tells you. Learning to hike out and keeping the boat level is what you need to do. If you keep it level it should plane and not be so tender. If it has reefing points , reef, if not, reduce the headsail or eliminate entirely if you feel out of control. When it 90 Degrees out, capsizing may not be such a bad thing. If it is that windy, leave the motor home, it will help your skills and save work if you get knocked down. If you want to keep the boat from going turtle, attach a foam fender on top of the mast until you get comfortable with the boat. Ain't pretty but may help. Also, take the boat out on a hot, windless day and capsize and practice righting it. You will gain a lot of confidence Hang in there, you will probably have more fun than the guys in their 30 footers in a breeze. Good sailing.
Looking at the 170 specs it is not a ballasted boat and it can certainly capsize if you are not careful under windy conditions, despite what a salesman tells you. Learning to hike out and keeping the boat level is what you need to do. If you keep it level it should plane and not be so tender. If it has reefing points , reef, if not, reduce the headsail or eliminate entirely if you feel out of control. When it 90 Degrees out, capsizing may not be such a bad thing. If it is that windy, leave the motor home, it will help your skills and save work if you get knocked down. If you want to keep the boat from going turtle, attach a foam fender on top of the mast until you get comfortable with the boat. Ain't pretty but may help. Also, take the boat out on a hot, windless day and capsize and practice righting it. You will gain a lot of confidence Hang in there, you will probably have more fun than the guys in their 30 footers in a breeze. Good sailing.
Release sheets before righting
Release the sheets before righting the boat. This will keep the boat from sailing away. Your experience helmsman forgot one of the most basic rules. Even so, I'm surprised that the boat went that far and capsized. Generally you would expect the boat to round up fairly quickly. Keep trying, you'll get it figured out.
Release the sheets before righting the boat. This will keep the boat from sailing away. Your experience helmsman forgot one of the most basic rules. Even so, I'm surprised that the boat went that far and capsized. Generally you would expect the boat to round up fairly quickly. Keep trying, you'll get it figured out.
high wind?
15-20 knots for any daysailor is alot of wind. Releasing the sheet lines is very important; however, are you reefing the jib? You can modify the mainsail for reefing too. If reefing too late is bad which I always recommeng reefing early and you can shake it out if not needed Crazy Dave
15-20 knots for any daysailor is alot of wind. Releasing the sheet lines is very important; however, are you reefing the jib? You can modify the mainsail for reefing too. If reefing too late is bad which I always recommeng reefing early and you can shake it out if not needed Crazy Dave
Turtles, turtles everywhere
I am glad (somewhat) to see that someone other than me can turtle the 170. I thought I was the only "talented" one out there. I turtled my 170 a month ago while lake sailing. I posted a complaint of sorts in this forum and got similar advice as posted here. It made me, shall I say, rather upset. As I said then, I am tired of all of the "sage" advice about avoiding overheeling and turtling the 170, with the clear implication that you have to be an inexperienced idiot to turtle the 170. I am not inexperienced or an idiot. I have had the 170 for 2 1/2 summers now and sailed an O'Day Javelin for 12 years before then, with other boats before then. I have repeatedly had problems with the 170 overheeling. All the "great" advice about how to avoid over heeling and turtling, I think, is coming from people who have NEVER sailed the 170. As wide as it is, it heels very easily, and when tipped over, it will turtle. I still think there is a design flaw, which is easy to remedy. My Javelin had a heavy metal centerboard. I never turned over in that boat, even though it was much narrower. And I sailed in just as strong winds. I am lobbying for Hunter to recall the 170 to install a weighted centerboard. Since that is not likely to happen, I have, as suggested in a response, put a flotable fender at the top of the mast and tied some floating yellow rope to the top of the mast. The fender, I hope, will keep the boat from turtling. The new rope will help in righting the boat if (when) it turtles. Since it floats, I won't lose it straight down to the lake bottom, and since it is yellow, I will be able to see it easily. I believe that when tipped on its side, the boat will automatically turtle (unless you grab the mast real fast or have flotation at the top of the mast). The only time that you will tip over is when the wind is abeam. Since the boat is so wide, the boat, sticking that far out of the water, acts like a sail, and the wind will turtle the boat easily. Flotation at the mast top is the only answer. As far as righting the boat once turtled, forget it unless you can pull up the mast top (with a rope), or do as I did (ug) take the mast off, drag the boat to shore and flip it on the beach. I also wish Hunter had put a reefing point into the main as standard equipment. I do furl the jib when a gust comes. That does help. Because of the overheeling, my wife and daughter refuse go sail with me.
We all like to get advice from those who "know", but on this one, if you haven't sailed the 170 in a strong wind, keep it to yourself, cuz you don't know, really you don't. I like the 170 and am not about to give it up (yet), but I do believe that the design needs improvement. I wish Hunter would take the initiative.
I am glad (somewhat) to see that someone other than me can turtle the 170. I thought I was the only "talented" one out there. I turtled my 170 a month ago while lake sailing. I posted a complaint of sorts in this forum and got similar advice as posted here. It made me, shall I say, rather upset. As I said then, I am tired of all of the "sage" advice about avoiding overheeling and turtling the 170, with the clear implication that you have to be an inexperienced idiot to turtle the 170. I am not inexperienced or an idiot. I have had the 170 for 2 1/2 summers now and sailed an O'Day Javelin for 12 years before then, with other boats before then. I have repeatedly had problems with the 170 overheeling. All the "great" advice about how to avoid over heeling and turtling, I think, is coming from people who have NEVER sailed the 170. As wide as it is, it heels very easily, and when tipped over, it will turtle. I still think there is a design flaw, which is easy to remedy. My Javelin had a heavy metal centerboard. I never turned over in that boat, even though it was much narrower. And I sailed in just as strong winds. I am lobbying for Hunter to recall the 170 to install a weighted centerboard. Since that is not likely to happen, I have, as suggested in a response, put a flotable fender at the top of the mast and tied some floating yellow rope to the top of the mast. The fender, I hope, will keep the boat from turtling. The new rope will help in righting the boat if (when) it turtles. Since it floats, I won't lose it straight down to the lake bottom, and since it is yellow, I will be able to see it easily. I believe that when tipped on its side, the boat will automatically turtle (unless you grab the mast real fast or have flotation at the top of the mast). The only time that you will tip over is when the wind is abeam. Since the boat is so wide, the boat, sticking that far out of the water, acts like a sail, and the wind will turtle the boat easily. Flotation at the mast top is the only answer. As far as righting the boat once turtled, forget it unless you can pull up the mast top (with a rope), or do as I did (ug) take the mast off, drag the boat to shore and flip it on the beach. I also wish Hunter had put a reefing point into the main as standard equipment. I do furl the jib when a gust comes. That does help. Because of the overheeling, my wife and daughter refuse go sail with me.
We all like to get advice from those who "know", but on this one, if you haven't sailed the 170 in a strong wind, keep it to yourself, cuz you don't know, really you don't. I like the 170 and am not about to give it up (yet), but I do believe that the design needs improvement. I wish Hunter would take the initiative.How did you unturtle?
How did the three of you right the boat after it turtled? Did it turtle the first time you flipped? If so, how did you right it then?
How did the three of you right the boat after it turtled? Did it turtle the first time you flipped? If so, how did you right it then?
unturtle hunter170
Curious George, The Coast Guard Auxillary came along and pulled us upright by hooking rope to opposite side. Yes, it tutled the first time as well. WAH!
Curious George, The Coast Guard Auxillary came along and pulled us upright by hooking rope to opposite side. Yes, it tutled the first time as well. WAH!
Hunter needs to take a look at this boat
The more I am hearing about this boat the more I agree with Mike Stuart. Unless a boat can be righted fairly easily, it should not be prone to capsizing as much as is being reported. 17' is a size that attracts beginners to the sport. I cannot imagine many things more discouraging to beggining sailers that to have their boat turtle in moderate conditions and not be able to to right it. Sounds like this boat needs to have a more conservative rig, and/or reefing ability, or ballast in the centerboard, or some built in features to make righting it more pratical.
The more I am hearing about this boat the more I agree with Mike Stuart. Unless a boat can be righted fairly easily, it should not be prone to capsizing as much as is being reported. 17' is a size that attracts beginners to the sport. I cannot imagine many things more discouraging to beggining sailers that to have their boat turtle in moderate conditions and not be able to to right it. Sounds like this boat needs to have a more conservative rig, and/or reefing ability, or ballast in the centerboard, or some built in features to make righting it more pratical.
I Have Capsized The 170 Twice.
1. Do get some mast flotation. Most manufacturers have sail sets for beginners and for advanced sailors. This one comes with a full roach for performance. I have used a material that sprays into the top portion of the mast and will keep it from turtling. It doesn't keey it from capsizing. 2. On both occaisions I turn the bow into the wind plus released the main and furled the jib, neither was difficult since there is plenty of room under the boat. My motor got soaked but that turned out to be easy to take care of as the gas tank was sealed and we were able to dry it up without major expense. 3. I had assistance from a pontoon boat with a 75 horse motor the first time and a V hull with a 50 horse second time. I tied painters at bow and stern cleats side opposite and threw them over bottom of hull to the motor and then warned them to stop as soon as it came up so they wouldn't get whacked by the mast when the center board caught the water. I climbed in over the open transom and continued sailing. 4. Remember this is a performance boat and contrary to statements about sailing flat and family daysailer and that cockamamy junk, this boat will move its' hull. 5. If you have the jib and main balanced and on a broad reach, it will not round up like it would if sailing at weather or with the jib furled. If you want to have fun with this boat, be assured that it will go over if overpowered by force four and five winds. I go tight to weather and I keep the mainsheet in my hand at these levels. If you get hot at force four and get on a broad reach, then slightly take in the mainsheet, you will start planing and that is adrenalin time. **This is a performance boat, believe it.*** 6. For those who still think this boat can not get close to the wind, I get apparent wind at approx 27 to 30 degrees. I would like to try a compass for a specific degrees reading at weather. 7. I have sailed in Gulf as well as lakes, and the lakes are most difficult since winds are so difficult to read and continuously changing in velocity and direction. I have sailed Sunfishes, Suma, Force V, Lazer, j-24, and a Morgan 46. This is my third year sailing but I have more hours on this Hunter 170 than most will do in 5 years. I was tracking hours and lost interest in logging last year with about 700 hours in and around Corpus Christi. I still do dumb things and so does everyone I've ever met. So if you see me in trouble, offer assistance, I will accept humbly and if I see you in trouble, I'll come over and offer my help. Good winds and good sailing.
1. Do get some mast flotation. Most manufacturers have sail sets for beginners and for advanced sailors. This one comes with a full roach for performance. I have used a material that sprays into the top portion of the mast and will keep it from turtling. It doesn't keey it from capsizing. 2. On both occaisions I turn the bow into the wind plus released the main and furled the jib, neither was difficult since there is plenty of room under the boat. My motor got soaked but that turned out to be easy to take care of as the gas tank was sealed and we were able to dry it up without major expense. 3. I had assistance from a pontoon boat with a 75 horse motor the first time and a V hull with a 50 horse second time. I tied painters at bow and stern cleats side opposite and threw them over bottom of hull to the motor and then warned them to stop as soon as it came up so they wouldn't get whacked by the mast when the center board caught the water. I climbed in over the open transom and continued sailing. 4. Remember this is a performance boat and contrary to statements about sailing flat and family daysailer and that cockamamy junk, this boat will move its' hull. 5. If you have the jib and main balanced and on a broad reach, it will not round up like it would if sailing at weather or with the jib furled. If you want to have fun with this boat, be assured that it will go over if overpowered by force four and five winds. I go tight to weather and I keep the mainsheet in my hand at these levels. If you get hot at force four and get on a broad reach, then slightly take in the mainsheet, you will start planing and that is adrenalin time. **This is a performance boat, believe it.*** 6. For those who still think this boat can not get close to the wind, I get apparent wind at approx 27 to 30 degrees. I would like to try a compass for a specific degrees reading at weather. 7. I have sailed in Gulf as well as lakes, and the lakes are most difficult since winds are so difficult to read and continuously changing in velocity and direction. I have sailed Sunfishes, Suma, Force V, Lazer, j-24, and a Morgan 46. This is my third year sailing but I have more hours on this Hunter 170 than most will do in 5 years. I was tracking hours and lost interest in logging last year with about 700 hours in and around Corpus Christi. I still do dumb things and so does everyone I've ever met. So if you see me in trouble, offer assistance, I will accept humbly and if I see you in trouble, I'll come over and offer my help. Good winds and good sailing.
Rich, a question
Rich, when you went over the first time were all three of you hiked out? I ask this because I also sail a 170 and have encountered conditions like you mention. I have buried the rail 3 times now but have not yet gone over. Each time this happens I think , 'Well I'll go over this time for sure'. Did the boat just suddenly go over or did it happen in slow motion? Can you think of anything you could have done at that moment to prevent it? I ask only because I do not want to go over and your experience can help me and others. I gave up a Flying Scott (very very stable) for the simplicity of the 170 but did not bargain on getting such a tipsy boat. It is fun, though so I guess I keep at it.
Rich, when you went over the first time were all three of you hiked out? I ask this because I also sail a 170 and have encountered conditions like you mention. I have buried the rail 3 times now but have not yet gone over. Each time this happens I think , 'Well I'll go over this time for sure'. Did the boat just suddenly go over or did it happen in slow motion? Can you think of anything you could have done at that moment to prevent it? I ask only because I do not want to go over and your experience can help me and others. I gave up a Flying Scott (very very stable) for the simplicity of the 170 but did not bargain on getting such a tipsy boat. It is fun, though so I guess I keep at it.
Slo-Mo Flipper
Over the past 2 1/2 years, I have had many times that I, like C.Smith, said "OK, I'm about to go swimming". When I finally did go over, it was slow. No danger that I would get hurt. Just like when the Million Dollar Man started to do his thing. Real slo. That's one (the only) advantage to having a wide heavy boat. The problem was that the water and the air was too cold for swimming. When I did go over, my outboard also took a bath. I have yet to get it to work. What a pain.
Over the past 2 1/2 years, I have had many times that I, like C.Smith, said "OK, I'm about to go swimming". When I finally did go over, it was slow. No danger that I would get hurt. Just like when the Million Dollar Man started to do his thing. Real slo. That's one (the only) advantage to having a wide heavy boat. The problem was that the water and the air was too cold for swimming. When I did go over, my outboard also took a bath. I have yet to get it to work. What a pain.
Flotation and mooring stability
I bought my boat used but had heard from the prior owner about a single capsize and turtle experience. I figured any centerboard boat can be knocked down easier than a fixed-keel boat, but turning turtle presents real recovery problems, which I discussed with my local dealer (The Boat Locker in Westport CT). My dealer recommended a "baby bob" mast-head float made by Hobie for Hobie Cats, and I bought it (about $75 plus tax). It's somewhat larger than a regulation football and is teardrop shaped white plastic. I've been sailing for almost twenty years, and at first I thought it would look bad (like training wheels), but I have a family to look out for and didn't care about being 'square'. Anyway, if Hobie Cats are cool with the 'bob' mounted, why should anything be different on a Hunter 170? After I got it mounted and looked at the boat from afar I decided it doesn't look bad at all. It will keep the boat from turning turtle, and that's the whole point. I had to drill a mounting hole in the aluminum casting at the top of the mast between and below the two halyard blocks, and used a through-bolt (stainess bolt with nylon-insert lock nut) to attach it. Also, I keep my boat on a mooring, and had a problem with it blowing over in thunder storms. I now keep the centerboard down about half-way at the mooring, and have bought a product called Rocker-Stoppers (available from Post Marine Supply in New Rochelle, NY). These are discs that attach to a 3/8 line, knotted so they don't slide, and weighted by an 8 pound mushroom anchor at the bottom of the string. They work like a sea anchor to stabilize the boat using water resistance. I hung a string of three discs on each line, attached to my boat's port and starboard side when at the mooring. I used a stainless spring-loaded shackle so they are easy to take off and attach to the mooring line when I'm sailing. So far, so good - no further problems to report.
I bought my boat used but had heard from the prior owner about a single capsize and turtle experience. I figured any centerboard boat can be knocked down easier than a fixed-keel boat, but turning turtle presents real recovery problems, which I discussed with my local dealer (The Boat Locker in Westport CT). My dealer recommended a "baby bob" mast-head float made by Hobie for Hobie Cats, and I bought it (about $75 plus tax). It's somewhat larger than a regulation football and is teardrop shaped white plastic. I've been sailing for almost twenty years, and at first I thought it would look bad (like training wheels), but I have a family to look out for and didn't care about being 'square'. Anyway, if Hobie Cats are cool with the 'bob' mounted, why should anything be different on a Hunter 170? After I got it mounted and looked at the boat from afar I decided it doesn't look bad at all. It will keep the boat from turning turtle, and that's the whole point. I had to drill a mounting hole in the aluminum casting at the top of the mast between and below the two halyard blocks, and used a through-bolt (stainess bolt with nylon-insert lock nut) to attach it. Also, I keep my boat on a mooring, and had a problem with it blowing over in thunder storms. I now keep the centerboard down about half-way at the mooring, and have bought a product called Rocker-Stoppers (available from Post Marine Supply in New Rochelle, NY). These are discs that attach to a 3/8 line, knotted so they don't slide, and weighted by an 8 pound mushroom anchor at the bottom of the string. They work like a sea anchor to stabilize the boat using water resistance. I hung a string of three discs on each line, attached to my boat's port and starboard side when at the mooring. I used a stainless spring-loaded shackle so they are easy to take off and attach to the mooring line when I'm sailing. So far, so good - no further problems to report.
Hobie "football"
I just bought the "mast float" directly from Hunter. It cost $50.00 + $6.00 for s&h. It has the Hobie "H" on it as Hunter purchases them from Hobie. It looks huge but so what. I have a new Yamaha motor that I don't want to loose plus other goodies that I carry each time.
I just bought the "mast float" directly from Hunter. It cost $50.00 + $6.00 for s&h. It has the Hobie "H" on it as Hunter purchases them from Hobie. It looks huge but so what. I have a new Yamaha motor that I don't want to loose plus other goodies that I carry each time.
How about an auto inflating vest?
Maybe you could get one of those "euro belt bag" type auto-inflating life vests and rig it to the top of the mast. Its small, and would deploy only if the mast hit the water, providing 22lbs of lift.
Maybe you could get one of those "euro belt bag" type auto-inflating life vests and rig it to the top of the mast. Its small, and would deploy only if the mast hit the water, providing 22lbs of lift.
- Status