Can I attach a second forestay to my bow roller fitting?

bobnlesafloat · Jan 15, 2011

"...save a great deal of hassle fitting a deck eye which would also mess up the sleeping arrangements in the forecabin."

It doesn't need to be either; on Spring Fever, rather than fitting a deck-eye, we've actually installed a second cleat which the demountable forestay can be shackled to it and for the other 99.99% of the time, we benefit from having another mooring point.

We removed the rear fixing bolt from the standard bow cleat, spun it through 180 degrees and re-drilled/re-bolted it back down. We then fitted a second cleat immediately astern of it - the originals rear-leg fixing location, became the forward fixing location for this extra one, so no redundant/filled holes on view. This second cleat has a massive plywood/sheet-steel backing plate, which we shaped to just fit within the confines of the anchor locker; it doesn't encroach into the forecabin area, but to fail it would need to rip-out an area of foredeck of over 1.5 square feet, my expectation is that the cleat itself would probably break first.

bobnlesafloat · Jan 22, 2011

Do you not find that the foredeck is a bit cluttered with two cleats in line with each other?

Not a problem at all,

I can imagine it being a bit of a nightmare to untangle ropes from, but maybe I'm overthinking things.

It's a good deal better than when we were trying to make off two bow lines or a bow-line & spring around a single cleat, it also gives peace of mind insofar as a broken cleat wouldn't result in all mooring lines disappearing over the side.

Of course I presume I could simply reuse the forward attachment of the existing cleat with a normal eye bolt and suitable backing, and still have only one cleat, at the aft position.

I don't see why not, but if it was me I'd still want a BIG spreader plate behind it: perhaps taking up the new eye-bolt and cleat all in one - I suggest this as when I fitted ours, I was disappointed by the size of the backing fitted to the original bow cleat and renewed/enlarged that one at the same time.

pjacobs55 · Feb 15, 2011

I keep wondering why people want to add a babystay to this little sloop, cluttering the boat, adding weight high and forward, and risking lifting the deck. Maybe it is often very wind where they sail.Nicholas H. Walsh P.A.
111 Commercial St.
Portland ME 04101
207/772-2191
Fax 207/774-3940

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From: robwhelton
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 8:23 AM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlbinVega] Re: Can I attach a second forestay to my bow roller fitting?
I was down on the boat at the weekend and thinking a bit more about the deck eye for the removable forestay.
I see how a big backing pad would spread the load, but then I wondered about fitting a length of angle iron instead- it would lie flush with the underside of the deck and with the anchor locker bulkhead, and would span the width of the foredeck. Hope that description makes sense.

I think this would be an immensely strong arrangement as the depth of the angle iron would act like an I-beam, and it would definately prevent the deck from lifting, which is the problem with poorly secured forestay fittings.

Has anybody made such a modification- either to a Vega or another boat? I wonder what sort of size/grade to use... I could probably afford to go for stainless as it is a fairly short length, but maybe galvanised or aluminium would be perfectly good. Aluminium, overside, would be probably the strongest option at the lowest weight.

winslowbuoy · Feb 15, 2011

I quite agree Nico. I changed back to hanked on sails some years ago, so no need
for extra stays, deck strengthening etc and the sails set better than roller
reefing headsails.

It also makes me think about reefing a bit earlier, no bad thing.

Mike

________________________________
From: Nico Walsh nwalsh@...
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 15 February, 2011 15:09:53
Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Re: Can I attach a second forestay to my bow roller
fitting?

I keep wondering why people want to add a babystay to this little sloop,
cluttering the boat, adding weight high and forward, and risking lifting the
deck. Maybe it is often very wind where they sail.Nicholas H. Walsh P.A.
111 Commercial St.
Portland ME 04101
207/772-2191
Fax 207/774-3940

This email is from a law firm and may contain information
that is privileged or confidential. If you suspect
you were not intended to receive this email,
please delete it and contact us.

From: robwhelton
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 8:23 AM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlbinVega] Re: Can I attach a second forestay to my bow roller
fitting?
I was down on the boat at the weekend and thinking a bit more about the deck eye
for the removable forestay.
I see how a big backing pad would spread the load, but then I wondered about
fitting a length of angle iron instead- it would lie flush with the underside of
the deck and with the anchor locker bulkhead, and would span the width of the
foredeck. Hope that description makes sense.

I think this would be an immensely strong arrangement as the depth of the angle
iron would act like an I-beam, and it would definately prevent the deck from
lifting, which is the problem with poorly secured forestay fittings.

Has anybody made such a modification- either to a Vega or another boat? I wonder
what sort of size/grade to use... I could probably afford to go for stainless as
it is a fairly short length, but maybe galvanised or aluminium would be
perfectly good. Aluminium, overside, would be probably the strongest option at
the lowest weight.

dougpol1 · Feb 15, 2011

On 02/15/2011 01:11 PM, MICHAEL FREEMAN wrote:

SVFlyAway · Feb 15, 2011

Just because one has roller furling doesn't mean that the head sail can't be
changed as easily (if not easier) than a hanked on sail. I have raced for
years on boats of all sizes and most of the bigger boats used a foil to
attach the head sail rather than hanks (and none of the serious racers used
furlers).

With that said, the Vega designer wrote a paper that included information on
adding a baby stay. It might be on the website. I have it on one of my
machines and if no one else has it available I can go find it.

Chris

On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:11 AM, MICHAEL FREEMAN
mikeandv@...wrote:

tiempo2010 · Feb 15, 2011

If you keep the inner stay close to the stemhead, maybe a foot aft and
parallel to it you don't need runners. The stay should be removable.

vegatern · Feb 16, 2011

A previous owner had installed double headstays, parallel stays attached to either side of the stem on chainplates and separated by about 8 inches. The idea was as Doug suggests, running down wind with double headsails. The next owner, just previous to me, added a roller furling headsail on the port stay, which would seem to be an improvement. I found the arrangement frustrating and awkward in that the roller could only be used on starboard tack, otherwise the sail would wrap the starboard forestay. This was bad enough in open water but catching the mooring became a challenge (after picking up the mooring, should the sail refill on port tack it was impossible to furl it).

I removed the roller furler and put it in storage. I liked the idea, or perhaps just the romance, of running down wind in the trades, and kept the double head stays but went back to hanked sails. After spending considerable time and expense I attached the double forestays to two custom anchor rollers securely mounted at the bow, and sailed her that way for several years.

Although I could change sails relatively quickly, by hanking on the new sail on the free stay, I did not find it much of an advantage. Under way the loaded stay was always to the lee of the empty stay, and at each tack the sail chafed across it. One afternoon, on returning to the mooring, I found that one of the hanks had actually unclipped from one headstay and clipped itself back on to the empty one. 2 or 3 years ago I changed back to a single headstay with hanked on sails. Although I haven't tried it yet the Twizzle rig looks like a better way to fly double headsails down wind. The Twizzle Rig or Twistle Rig for Downwind Ocean Sailing

I have thought that I would like to add a removable baby stay and have altered an existing mast fitting, bought the rivets, determined where to attach it (about midway between the hounds and spinnaker pole hoist block) . . . but have not yet drilled the holes. The deck fitting is a padeye about 8 inches aft of the bow cleat, bolted through deck, a backing plate and a matching padeye facing down. Below decks a bit of wire and a rigging screw to the anchor locker bulkhead completes it.

I have been thinking the storm jib on a babystay would move the center of effort aft, letting the bow ride closer to the wind when hove to, which is my main reason for the babystay, but when I mock it up with the storm jib held high off the deck the sheets are inside the shrouds (I don't know if this should be an issue or not) and I would need to cut the sail down in size some. I also like the idea of being able to hoist a spinnaker staysail under the asymmetrical, though realize this may be pushing my soloing ability a bit. I agree the added confusion of lines is a concern. I am at the point now that I am unable to experiment with the babystay without drilling the mast, but am hesitant to make a permanent change.

I haven't seen the entire article by Per Brohall, only the excerpt in the files section. If someone has it available perhaps it could be added to the files. His comment was a removable stay could be added from the stem to the hounds, this still requires a new mast fitting though.

I have added a photo of the new mast fitting in Tern's photo album.

Craig TernV1519

tiempo2010 · Feb 16, 2011

A Norwegian sailor on an Able 34 left here (Victoria) solo in October for
California with a Twizzle type rig, light nylon sails on a single furler and
2 poles whose inboard end floated in front of the mast, tied together where
they crossed. It looked interesting with the exception of the problem of
being on the foredeck wrestling with the poles to set it up or take it down.
I wonder if putting the inboard ends on the mast's spinnaker pole track,
either one above the other or using a double pole fitting wouldn't be a
better solution.

As far as the twin forestays, side by side solutions don't really work for
several reasons. One, the tension is shared by both, neither as tight as a
single would be, so there is some sag in the stay being used. Two, tangles
can be a real hassle as you mentioned. I think the removable inner makes a
lot more sense and if it is not too far back from the stemhead and parallel
to the forestay (Solent stay) runners are not needed as they would be if the
upper attachment is too far down from the masthead.

dougpol1 · Feb 16, 2011

On 02/16/2011 04:53 PM, Brian Stannard wrote:

pjacobs55 · Feb 16, 2011

Craig,
I love the Twizzle rig!

I have a Harken furler with a twin groove foil. What I thought was to have 2 identical jibs (about 120%) made of a moderate weight Dacron, one in each foil, both attached at the head to the furler swivel, and raised together by one halyard. That way they could be rolled up together, and even used in a pinch, both on the same side, for close-hauled sailing ... best of all, no need to sew them together.

You wouldn't need to sew together hank-on jibs either, as long as the hanks were staggered. Sewing them into one sail limits them to downwind use, violating that "every piece of boat gear must have at least two uses" rule.

In the past I've run with my main furled, my 120 jib poled out to port, and my 140 drifter poled out to starboard with some success. I like the drifter as it has an Amsteel luff rope, and does not require a stay.

My thoughts on having a second smaller jib positioned back from the bow would be to have a reinforced flush-mounted pad eye on deck and not bother with a stay at all, just use a jib with an Amsteel luff line and tension the cr*p out.

This would allow a more balanced rig in a blow, with the regular jib rolled up on the furler, a storm jib tacked to the pad eye, and a reefed main.

I may be (read: probably) overlooking something obvious as to why these ideas won't work. I'd probably sew up a couple of Q&D polytarp prototypes for testing first. Maybe twin Dacron jibs would be too fat to roll up on the furler ... maybe a heavier weight Nylon would be better.

Ahh, I think I feel the sailmaking urge rising again ;-)

Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'

vegatern · Feb 17, 2011

Will a storm jib set flying stand up to storm force winds or does it need the support of the stay? Craig

n6ric · Feb 17, 2011

Peter,
When reading about the Twizzle rig, I came up with the same idea as you with the twin groove furler. If you decide to test it out, you definitely need to share the results. I'm far from the rebuild point of thinking about a furler, but I'll get there soon enough.

By the way, I found some great polypropylene burber indoor/outdoor carpeting on the Internet and installed the first piece on the port v-birth cabin wall and it looks great. Thanks for the idea. I also took your advise on the glue and didn't have to deal with the stench. And, I did turn the water tank area under the v-birth into a chain locker for my anchor windlass. I should have some pictures of it posted pretty soon.

Ric
s/v Blue Max
# 2692