I was out on the potomac river near Washington this Saturday and the winds started gusting at around 20-25mph, the heal was probably 45 deg. I was paranoid about capsizing so I returned to port. I had all sails up and I have a 1985 Hunter 23’ displ 2500lbs. Am I just being over paranoid, or can that wind capsize a H23?
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Any boat can capsize.
Steven: Any boat can capsize. I would assume that you know how to reef the sails and did so? If this is not the case then you should become proficient in the procedure. Most of the Hunters (regardless of size) need to have a reef at about 15 kts or less. When the wind is over 20, you probably want to be on your second reef and a very small or no jib at all. As you boat heals over, there is less sail area that is hit by the wind. The boat also becomes very inefficent and does not sail very well if at all. Assuming that you are not in large seas, you are PROBABLY not going to capsize. You will just have the holy crap scared out of you and your crew. If you get into conditions with larger swells you can increase your likely hood of a knock down (or something worse).
Steven: Any boat can capsize. I would assume that you know how to reef the sails and did so? If this is not the case then you should become proficient in the procedure. Most of the Hunters (regardless of size) need to have a reef at about 15 kts or less. When the wind is over 20, you probably want to be on your second reef and a very small or no jib at all. As you boat heals over, there is less sail area that is hit by the wind. The boat also becomes very inefficent and does not sail very well if at all. Assuming that you are not in large seas, you are PROBABLY not going to capsize. You will just have the holy crap scared out of you and your crew. If you get into conditions with larger swells you can increase your likely hood of a knock down (or something worse).
Also, your rudder...
...loses contact with the water when you heel way over. That means total loss of control. Lots or fun! (NOT)
...loses contact with the water when you heel way over. That means total loss of control. Lots or fun! (NOT)
Steven, The comment "all the sails up" is a clue.
As said earlier you should be reefing or even removing sails in these wind conditions in a boat the size of yours. With a reefed main and a reefed jib(if possible on jib) your boat will still maintain blazing speed and be in a much more upright position. I have no idea of your experence as a sailor and am new to the sport myself. I found that in a strong blow we did better with the main sail only until we learned more about our boat and about sailing. Start out under canvased and with caution. In addition to warm clothes and good chow, a nicely fitting life jacket or vest is manditory on our boat. Good luck and the learning curve is fun. Ray S/V Speedy
As said earlier you should be reefing or even removing sails in these wind conditions in a boat the size of yours. With a reefed main and a reefed jib(if possible on jib) your boat will still maintain blazing speed and be in a much more upright position. I have no idea of your experence as a sailor and am new to the sport myself. I found that in a strong blow we did better with the main sail only until we learned more about our boat and about sailing. Start out under canvased and with caution. In addition to warm clothes and good chow, a nicely fitting life jacket or vest is manditory on our boat. Good luck and the learning curve is fun. Ray S/V Speedy
Capsize
Amen, Steve! We've been out on the Barnegat Bay in winds over 20 knots. It's not allot of fun! Our 23 has only one reef point, and we've been using it quite a bit lately! We also douse the jib (the stock jib is a 110% genoa) because it's just too much. Now we (and you!) can see the value in a storm jib! We try to keep the heel under 25 degrees; it's much easier to manage, as Doug has already mentioned. Also, when the winds and seas begin to pick up it's wise to batten down the hatches just in case the impossible does happen! We all know that the boat SHOULD right itself, but I don't know if it'd happen if the hull was full of water! One thing we never thought about until reading about it here is the lazarette hatch in the cockpit! It has no latch to keep it closed. If you ever did get blown over, even with the cabin sealed your 23 would fill up in seconds and it'd be all over! We now have twin latches there just to be sure! While we're on the subject, I'm sure that most, if not all, H23 owners know how heavy she steers on a run with 3-foot following seas (Barbara's done within 15 minutes of manning the helm!). If you watch the upper metal part of the rudder that surrounds the tiller, you can actually see it flexing. When we first got the Lil' Wass Ett, the tiller broke off on our third day out! It seems the wood around the pivot bolt was rotten and it couldn't take the strain. Luckily, the winds were only 5-10 knots that day! Since then, I keep a sharp eye on the condition of the tiller at that point and put it inside during the winter. That kind of excitement we can do without! Jim Maroldo Ocean Gate, NJ
Amen, Steve! We've been out on the Barnegat Bay in winds over 20 knots. It's not allot of fun! Our 23 has only one reef point, and we've been using it quite a bit lately! We also douse the jib (the stock jib is a 110% genoa) because it's just too much. Now we (and you!) can see the value in a storm jib! We try to keep the heel under 25 degrees; it's much easier to manage, as Doug has already mentioned. Also, when the winds and seas begin to pick up it's wise to batten down the hatches just in case the impossible does happen! We all know that the boat SHOULD right itself, but I don't know if it'd happen if the hull was full of water! One thing we never thought about until reading about it here is the lazarette hatch in the cockpit! It has no latch to keep it closed. If you ever did get blown over, even with the cabin sealed your 23 would fill up in seconds and it'd be all over! We now have twin latches there just to be sure! While we're on the subject, I'm sure that most, if not all, H23 owners know how heavy she steers on a run with 3-foot following seas (Barbara's done within 15 minutes of manning the helm!). If you watch the upper metal part of the rudder that surrounds the tiller, you can actually see it flexing. When we first got the Lil' Wass Ett, the tiller broke off on our third day out! It seems the wood around the pivot bolt was rotten and it couldn't take the strain. Luckily, the winds were only 5-10 knots that day! Since then, I keep a sharp eye on the condition of the tiller at that point and put it inside during the winter. That kind of excitement we can do without! Jim Maroldo Ocean Gate, NJ
I'd suggest that you add one more.
Jim: I would suggest that you add another reef point. This is really not very expensive and can make a lot of difference. As you know you can often motor better with a little sail up. It helps stabilize the boat in a seaway. I would think that you should be able to get a second reef for somewhere between $50-100. You do not need to puchase a new storm jib if you don't have one. Just get one that is sized for your boat for 20-30kt winds. It is good to have a pendant made to keep it 3-4 feet off the deck too. I am not too familar with your boat, but if your lockers are large enough to get inside, I would recommend that your latches do not automatically latch when you close them. This is a good way to get locked in when you are not expecting it. (advise for another sailor a few years ago). This type of thing only happens when you are working onboard while you are alone.
Jim: I would suggest that you add another reef point. This is really not very expensive and can make a lot of difference. As you know you can often motor better with a little sail up. It helps stabilize the boat in a seaway. I would think that you should be able to get a second reef for somewhere between $50-100. You do not need to puchase a new storm jib if you don't have one. Just get one that is sized for your boat for 20-30kt winds. It is good to have a pendant made to keep it 3-4 feet off the deck too. I am not too familar with your boat, but if your lockers are large enough to get inside, I would recommend that your latches do not automatically latch when you close them. This is a good way to get locked in when you are not expecting it. (advise for another sailor a few years ago). This type of thing only happens when you are working onboard while you are alone.
Does a Cat Have Wiskers???
The answer is, of course, yes. While you're picking up experience handling a boat under the conditions you mention is good, after all, one could be caught with all sails flying when a squall hits, it is hard on the sails. What many sailors are concerned about is just handling the situation, which is understandable, but by being overpowered one is causing damage to the sail shape and probably the sail cloth too. Inevitably the sail shape will degrade and the draft will increase. The leach will flog at lower wind speeds or it will lose its shape. Recuts and new sails are costly so it pays to take care of the ones you have be not drive the boat too hard (overpowered). Visit a sail loft and talk to them about costs for reef points, replacement, or recuts (they'll probably want to see pictures or the sails) and addition they might even provide some pointers. It's all about learning but sometimes it costs money.
The answer is, of course, yes. While you're picking up experience handling a boat under the conditions you mention is good, after all, one could be caught with all sails flying when a squall hits, it is hard on the sails. What many sailors are concerned about is just handling the situation, which is understandable, but by being overpowered one is causing damage to the sail shape and probably the sail cloth too. Inevitably the sail shape will degrade and the draft will increase. The leach will flog at lower wind speeds or it will lose its shape. Recuts and new sails are costly so it pays to take care of the ones you have be not drive the boat too hard (overpowered). Visit a sail loft and talk to them about costs for reef points, replacement, or recuts (they'll probably want to see pictures or the sails) and addition they might even provide some pointers. It's all about learning but sometimes it costs money.
Capsizing and prevention
Thanks for the input Steve! You have a good point about the cockpit hatch latches. Funny, I never gave it a thought when I installed them, but as it turns out, they are the twist-to-lock type so thankfully I won't be spending any overnighters in the lazarette; that is unless the Admiral gets wise to this!
Jim Maroldo s/v: Lil' Wass Ett
Thanks for the input Steve! You have a good point about the cockpit hatch latches. Funny, I never gave it a thought when I installed them, but as it turns out, they are the twist-to-lock type so thankfully I won't be spending any overnighters in the lazarette; that is unless the Admiral gets wise to this!
Jim Maroldo s/v: Lil' Wass EttKnockdown, not capsize
Getting hit by high winds with too much sail up in protected waters may cause a knockdown - a roll to 90 degrees. The keel will bring the boat back upright when the wind pressure eases (provided the cabin is not flooded.) A capsize in a keel boat is almost always caused by waves that tip a boat beyond its stability point- somewhere around 120 degrees for most boats. Unless youare in open water where the wind has been working on a long fetch to build dangerous waves, acapsize is quite unlikely. Not that a knock down isn't real scary! David Lady Lillie
Getting hit by high winds with too much sail up in protected waters may cause a knockdown - a roll to 90 degrees. The keel will bring the boat back upright when the wind pressure eases (provided the cabin is not flooded.) A capsize in a keel boat is almost always caused by waves that tip a boat beyond its stability point- somewhere around 120 degrees for most boats. Unless youare in open water where the wind has been working on a long fetch to build dangerous waves, acapsize is quite unlikely. Not that a knock down isn't real scary! David Lady Lillie
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