C25 Leaking

[malyea]

Friend of mine, new to sailing, bought a '84 C25 (tall rig, swing keel) and asked me to show him a few things about sailing a boat bigger than his 12' daysailer.

The boat had been delivered by trailer, launched and been sitting in the slip for a few days - seemingly not leaking (at worst, maybe a slight leak, not certain).

We sailed the boat for about 1 1/2 hours in a 3 to 10 kt breeze and put her away; next morning, the bilge was full with about 1/2" water above the sole just aft of the v-berth, next to the porta-potty head. (We found the bilge pump to be inoperative).

We need to find the leak before we can fix it - forum research so far points to possibly...

- keel cable volcano/thru-hull (my friend says some water came up in that area when he lowered the keel)

- rudder gudgeons

Any other suggestions/directions/advice/etc?

Would it help short-term to raise the keel if the volcano is the culprit?

I can't look at it for a few days so now doing the research part. As always, any help is much appreciated.

Mike

 

[Stu Jackson]

Mike, when it comes to leaks specific to C25s, you should tell your friend to get familiar with these guys:

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=3

 

[Joe Diver]

So, the boat is in the water now, inoperative bilge pump and taking on water?

First thing....the boat is sinking and you need to address that immediately. Get it out of the water. Fix the bilge pump. Go get a sump pump for Walmart. Start bailing. Do something as it may go much faster than you think, especially as more water gets in.

Once you have her dry inside you can start to try and find the leak.

On a C25, mine at least, there are several possible thru hulls that "could" be the culprit. I have 2 seacocks: 1 for the sink/icebox drain (under the galley) and 1 for the head water intake (in the V berth). You mentioned porta-potty so it may not have this one. If it has the sink in the head there will be a thru hull and seacock underneath it somewhere, follow the drain line. There may also be thru-hulls for a knot meter and depth sounder, if installed and of the type to use the thru hulls.

The rudder gudgeons will be above the waterline.

Do you know the history of the swing keel? Brand new parts, while necessary and nice to have, could be from a keel drop the PO didn't tell you about. Closely inspect the keel box for damage, might have to pull the boat for this, but you'll probably be hauling it anyway for whatever fix is required.

Other than thru-hulls or damage from a keel drop, there isn't really anything else it could be....not counting of course something unusual, like grounding damage, or holing the boat from hitting an object, but this would have been noticed while it was on the trailer when you inspected it before launch.

 

[jrowan]

I previously owned an 85 C 25. Unfortunately there are many places it can take on water from. The usual suspects are the "volcano" as U describe it - fiberglass tube where the keel cable penetrates the hull. Check all through hulls, & plumbing lines around the head. The rudder is mounted aft of the transom, so it it not as likely a leak culprit. On my boat, there was P.O. hidden damage from grounding to the keel trunk. This damage is usually hidden between the hull & the cabin sole liner, where the trunk penetrates the hull. A crack can develop here, which is difficult to fix. If U can't find the seepage leak suspect this area, which is prone to wear & damage. It requires a haul out to fix. When the boat is removed from the water watch closely where water seeps out - that may help to diagnose. I had an experienced yard rebuild my trunk box with Kevlar webbing in the fiberglass repair. It was "bullet proof" when I was done with it - $1,500 later! Good luck & let us know how the repair went. See pics:

 

[malyea]

Thanks guys!

Owner is hand pumping about 10+ gals every 24 hours and I'll install bilge pump tomorrow....the patient is stabilized on life support...

Once I get the pump installed, think I'll be best off trying to find the leak while boat's still in the water, then pull it to fix it.

Will a Tundra with a 5.8L V8 pull out a SK C25 up a slightly steep ramp?

If the leak didn't show itself until after our initial 1 1/2 hour sail, is that a clue as to where I might find the leak?

How do you access the bilge on a C25? All I've found so far is a twist off beckson plate under the cabin table just to port of centerline...is that it? How far fore and aft does the bilge extend?

Duhdnt, Duhdnt, Duhdnt....... (background theme from Jaws...) Duhdnt, Duhdnt....

 

[Joe Diver]

Will a Tundra with a 5.8L V8 pull out a SK C25 up a slightly steep ramp?

Impossible to answer....yes, it will have enough power, but variables like ramp traction, bottom the trailer sits on if not the ramp...etc....so who knows. I've smelled burning rubber and seen clouds of smoke more than once in my marina.

If the leak didn't show itself until after our initial 1 1/2 hour sail, is that a clue as to where I might find the leak?

Maybe, but since you've been sailing it's still taking water...meaning, it's taking water whether you're sailing or not...and you only first noticed it when the bilge filled and came into the cabin. Your best bet is to get her as dry as you possibly can...I get water in my bilge after an especially hard, driving rain...I use a large sponge and bucket to get all the water out and then use an old towel to dry it. There's not enough water to use the bilge pump as the hose will just suck air....but I like to keep my bilge completely dry. Once it's dry you can try to see where the water is coming from. It may be coming in from down there, or just gathering in the lowest point.

How do you access the bilge on a C25? All I've found so far is a twist off beckson plate under the cabin table just to port of centerline...is that it? How far fore and aft does the bilge extend?

Don't know about a swinger, I have a fixed keel. I have 2 places in the cabin sole to access my bilge. One in the center, directly above the keel and another at 1:00 of that, base of the compression post. I only ever need to access the main one.

 

[Joe Diver]

By the way...have you come over to the Catalina 25 Association forum yet? I haven't seen you post anything about this...

Catalina 25 Association

Come on over and post up....tons of folks with ALOT more knowledge than me can help you out...it's where we owners gather and chat.....

 

[Captnkev25]

I have an 84 C25 swing keel and my bilge access sounds the same as yours Joe. I have a long access board in front of the companionway stairs, directly in front of the keel box and one just forward and a little starboard to that one. You can make them both out in the pic (if I uploaded it correctly)

 

[Joe Diver]

Yep...same as mine. (sans keelbox)

 

[Captnkev25]

Are yours screwed down?

 

[shipwreck66]

I've seen a Tundra get launched at your place Joe, always a good show over there. A lot of the C25s came with marine heads, were removed, and portables were put back in, check and see if the old plumbing is still there and if the valve is open. The keel trunk issues that keep popping up were one of the deciding factors in purchasing a fixed keel.

 

[Joe Diver]

Yes, both have (4) screws in each to hold them in place.

Our ramp is pretty steep. It's got a good texture for traction and all, but the angle is a bit more than some vehicles can easily deal with....especially a pickup with such a light load over the rear axle....add in a little water and it's burn out city.

A month or so ago some dude was putting a C22 on a trailer. He bought it here and was transporting it to Ray Hubbard (I think)...they were pulling it with a minivan. It was quite an entertaining show, all the smoke, smell, screeching, cursing....and all the folks trying to help....they finally hooked up a truck to the front of the minivan and pulled the whole rig out. I went over to talk to the dude but he was frustrated and a douchebag so I just walked away. I didn't care anyway as all I really wanted was a close look at the keel and trunk. I got it.

 

[malyea]

UPDATE - C25 Leaking

Thanks for info so far.

I had time to 1) search for the leak location and 2) dive under the boat to inspect.

I found...

1) The cabin inspection showed that the leak is forward of the bulkhead that is adjacent to the compression post. The water builds up under the sole at the foot of the porta-potty and flows aft through an opening in said bulkhead and then builds up in the locker space under the forward table seat.


2) Diving the hull showed that the only thru-hull opening is for the galley sink/ice box drain well aft of the leak location. There are no thru-hulls anywhere near the leak location. Inspection of the forward swing keel area showed that one of the four keel bolts is missing and no apparent damage from any possible past swing keel free fall events.

Can a missing keel bolt in itself be the cause of the leak? Reading the Catalina tech description of the keel bolt assembly, I don't think so...what do you think?

Can I replace the missing keel bolt in shallow water without having to pull the boat out on a trailer? Regardless of the impact on the leak, he needs all four bolts...

Thanks

 

[shipwreck66]

What about where the sink originally sat on the starboard side from the port-a-potty? any old plumbing still hidden under something?

 

[malyea]

Ahhh...didn't know there was a sink across from the port-a-potty...

I had a heck of a time even finding the galley sink thru-hull while diving the bottom cause the opening is so small... I could have missed the opening for the head sink thru-hull cause I wasn't looking/thinking of it...

I know the original configuraton had to be port-a-potty cause there's no deck pump-out cap labeled 'waste' (only one deck cap labeled 'water' on starborad side) so I wasn't even thinking that the head had a sink/thru-hull... thanks

The search continues....

 

[Stu Jackson]

C25 head sink

I believe the brochures on the C25 Association website show the "optional" head sink on the starboard side across from the porta potti.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=3

Joe gave you that link already. If you haven't posted your question there yet, you really should. Those guys KNOW your boat, inside and out.

 

[Captnkev25]

On my 84 C25 the head sink through hull is located under the V berth a few inches to port from the centerline. Probably about a foot in from the access door. I have a plumbed head though and this also acts as the raw water intake so I'm not sure if it would be different on one with a porta potty. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[malyea]

Thanks - the owner's going to check for any eveidence of a sink/thru-hull in the forward area and we'll go from there.

Can we replace the missing keel bolt with the boat in the water?

Will the missing keel bolt cause a leak?

 

[Captnkev25]

I don't think it should cause a leak. It's my understanding that the hangers that the keel hangs from are glassed over on the top. I'm sure it's possible and I'm in no way an expert. As far as putting the bolt in while in the water I believe it's recommended to use some sort of loctite when installing it. I don't see how this is possible with the boat in the water but for temporary peace of mind I'm sure the bolt can be installed while in the water (as long as its not snapped off) and then when it is hauled next time for paint etc you can do the other three correctly and take out the one without the loctite and install it properly. Good luck and keep us posted.