C22 Mark II wobbly keel

[mermike]

Hi all,

I'm looking at purchasing a 1998 Mark II with a wobbly keel. I haven't dropped the keel but assume that the bushing is worn. Research here suggests reaming the keel and installing an oversize bushing should solve the problem.

All of the posts I've found reference older C22's. Is there any difference in construction of the keel between earlier models and a 1998? Would a Mark II require a different solution?

Thanks all for your contributions here. I've learned much just by hanging out here.

 

[CloudDiver]

Mark, having done this mod recently I can tell you its no small task, but can be accomplished in a weekend or two with some basic lifting gear (like an automotive engine lift). Getting the keel on/off the boat is half the challenge.

To my knowledge there is no difference in the shape, size, weight of the swing keel on the Mark II vs the pre 86 'new design boats'. To be sure, talk to Catalina Direct tech support, but I'm pretty sure they will tell you that the bushing they offer will be a direct fit.

You should have no need to buy the new style bronze hangers, your boat should be equipped with them. You'll want to remove the old bolts (carefully) and replace them, using some blue Loctite and torque to spec. They are 1.25 inch 5/16 stainless. You'll have to verify the depth on your inserts because sometimes they are tapped a bit shallow.

You can look in my resto thread to see how I removed my keel and the refurbishment, using an engine lift to move around and flip the keel over, install the new bushing etc. I highly recommend trying to borrow a tapered 1.25 inch ream to correctly expand the hole. They are very expensive to buy new and not worth the cost to do one job, but if you have a machinist friend or can find one used that's the way to go. You'll want a new bronze keel pin too, I think they are only $8 from CD.

 

[CaptDon01]

Mermike, HUGE difference and improvement in the keel on a MK-II from the original C-22. Although the basic shape is the same, the construction is completely different. The old swing keel is solid cast iron,(and a bunch of plastic filler to try and get it to an acceptable shape). With the introduction of the MK-II came a new swing keel also. The keel is made with a stainless steel support structure, and uses lead for the ballast. The entire keel is encased in a fiberglass shell with a much better shape,(which is debated by the racers). I've also heard, but can't get confirmation, but evidently because the new swing keel uses lead instead of being entirely made from cast iron, that the lead is concentrated to the lower portion of the swing keel, and weighs 50# less, but because the weight is much lower, still gives the same righting, maybe slightly more. Now when the old cast iron keels pin hole became worn, you could buy an insert to restore the hole, however, even though the new swing keels have been out for 20 years now, there are not that many MK-II's, only several hundred were made, and I would speculate the majority have wing keels, so you might be one of the first to raise this question. I would think a machine shop, or machinist could fabricate a bushing, however, it would be nice to know how thick the pin support material is inside the keel. Then again, how "wobbly" is wobbly? It's not a precision fit. It might be more than you expected, but still not an issue, and maybe only slightly worn. Once the keel is lowered, and the keel lock is set, there might not be any wobble.

Both keels use the same hanger assemblies.

I attached a couple photos of a new style swing keel I saw while at the factory a couple months ago. In the one photo, you'll notice two cable mounting points. This is because the Sport uses this keel, and the cockpit is longer, so the location of the winch and turning ball is slightly different. This way, the keel can be used on either a new C-22 Sport, or on an older C-22, which we intend to retrofit out "New Design" C-22 with one.

Don

 

[CloudDiver]

Mark,

Capt Don got me on that one, I forgot about all the redesign details of the swing keel for the MK II. There are enough points that are consistent to make the replacement fairly easy, and the differences might make it easier;

- both versions on swing keels use the same Hangers and Keel pin, thus the bushing will be the same, 316 stainless tube, 1 inch ID and 1.25 inch OD, 1/8 wall thickness. You don't have to buy it from CD, but most metal supply places will only sell tube in 10 to 12 foot lengths, so its easiest just to buy it from CD.

- With all above said, it is likely you don't even need the bushing! from what Don said about the new materials and construction of the swing keel on your MK II, I'm willing to bet the bushing is already built into your keel. The hole that supports the pin is already stainless, otherwise its all fiberglass... either way it couldn't have rusted away like my cast iron version did. I think the reason you have keel slop is either loose keel hanger bolts or too much gap between the hangers and the keel. You either need shims or new bolts and tightened properly.

The best thing to inspect first, identify the problem... You may not even need to remove the keel!

If its in the water get it out on the trailer, take some pics on both sides of the keel at the hangers. Post them here and we'll have a look. Worst case I doubt you'll be spending more than $50.

 

[cjb300]

It seems my 1974 has had her original swing keel replaced with a new version.

 

[CaptDon01]

View attachment 89736

It seems my 1974 has had her original swing keel replaced with a new version.

Yup! That's a bunch of money hang'en down there. First I've heard of an original version receiving the upgrade. I would've thought the previous owner would have made that a huge part of his sales pitch in selling the boat.

Don

 

[cjb300]

Actually it was 2 precious owners spent the money.

 

[mermike]

Thanks all for the responses.

A couple of notes. First, Cleo is a '75. She has the new style hangars and spacers. There is no appreciable wobble when she is on the trailer or in the water. I don't need to set the keel lock to eliminate wobble on Cleo. The PO must have been active on this forum!

The Mark II is also on a trailer and when I shook the end of the keel it was very loose. There was some obvious scuffing on the port side of the aft end of the keel trunk where the keel cable attaches. I understand the spacing pads aren't up inside the keel trunk at this point, but the amount of wobble and the scuffing is concerning. There is no obvious movement of the hangars.

I will snorkel under and check it out when we put it in the water.

Cloud Diver, your build thread is simply amazing.

 

[CaptDon01]

The Mark II is also on a trailer and when I shook the end of the keel it was very loose. There was some obvious scuffing on the port side of the aft end of the keel trunk where the keel cable attaches. I understand the spacing pads aren't up inside the keel trunk at this point, but the amount of wobble and the scuffing is concerning. There is no obvious movement of the hangars.

I will snorkel under and check it out when we put it in the water.

Is it possible to support the forward end of the keel with a floor jack so you can unbolt the hanger assembly and just lower it enough to remove the hanger assembly and see if the issue is the hole, or the pin, or both? Naturally the sides of the keel would have to be supported so it only moves up or down and can't fall over.

On the earlier MK-II's there wasn't access in the cabin floor to the keel bolts on the wing keel versions, and I don't know if there was access to the top of the weldments either. The early MK-II's used the same liner on the swing keel and wing keel versions, and I can't remember if the factory had access points where the weldments are for the hanger assembly. Checking the status of the bolts on the hanger assembly would be another good thing to do, and would definitely affect the purchase price of the boat, especially if changing them required cutting access holes in the cabin floor.

Also, is there any rust on the keel? To make sure, take a magnet to the keel and make sure it's not cast iron.

Just thinking, good luck!

Don

 

[mermike]

Great suggestions. I plan to remove the keel hanger bolts (one at a time, of course) to check for condition, as a contingency of the sale.

There is an access plate in the sole that appears to be glued in. It's roughly in the right place for the weldments. Haven't insisted on removing the plate at this point.

There is no rust showing on the keel, but the fiberglass on the bottom edge is pretty dinged up. The current owner bought it a year ago and never put it in the water so history is hard to come by. The owner before that is known to friends to be somewhat lax regarding maintenance.

I will bring a magnet, too.

Is it possible to support the forward end of the keel with a floor jack so you can unbolt the hanger assembly and just lower it enough to remove the hanger assembly and see if the issue is the hole, or the pin, or both? Naturally the sides of the keel would have to be supported so it only moves up or down and can't fall over.

On the earlier MK-II's there wasn't access in the cabin floor to the keel bolts on the wing keel versions, and I don't know if there was access to the top of the weldments either. The early MK-II's used the same liner on the swing keel and wing keel versions, and I can't remember if the factory had access points where the weldments are for the hanger assembly. Checking the status of the bolts on the hanger assembly would be another good thing to do, and would definitely affect the purchase price of the boat, especially if changing them required cutting access holes in the cabin floor.

Also, is there any rust on the keel? To make sure, take a magnet to the keel and make sure it's not cast iron.

Just thinking, good luck!

Don

 

[CaptDon01]

Keel bolt weldment replacement isn't the end of the world, but if it helps in the purchase price, I would insist on a decent discount. Hopefully it's not an issue on the boat you're looking at. Swing keel bolts aren't an issue if they receive the proper maintenance. Stripped or broken keel bolts indicates lack of proper maintenance, and I would guess maintenance on the rest of the boat would follow the same course. Good luck and keep us posted. The MK-II's are GREAT cruising boats, and maintained and clean they can demand premium prices. They didn't make very many, and they ain't making any more, so what's out there is all there will be....

Don

 

[Time_Out]

Yeah it's really a shame that they didn't continue to make the MKII's. I think they are probably the best cruising C22 out there. Good looks, bigger interior cabin volume, overall great boats!

But I never plan to part with Time Out, and I'm very happy with her now, especially since I can sail her now!

Jerry

 

[CaptDon01]

Yeah it's really a shame that they didn't continue to make the MKII's. I think they are probably the best cruising C22 out there. Good looks, bigger interior cabin volume, overall great boats!

But I never plan to part with Time Out, and I'm very happy with her now, especially since I can sail her now!

Jerry

Jerry, there is always room for another C-22.

Yes, HUGE difference in the cabin room on the MK-II versions!

Don

 

[mermike]

That's the attraction. I'm 6'4". It's a very tight fit in my '75.

Jerry, there is always room for another C-22.

Yes, HUGE difference in the cabin room on the MK-II versions!

Don

 

[CaptDon01]

That's the attraction. I'm 6'4". It's a very tight fit in my '75.

Our original C-22 was a 1980, so the same version as you C-22, so I know what you mean. The MK-II's interiors are spacious, but don't discount the "new design" versions either. One nice thing is the rear backrest on the dinette unsnaps and slides into a recess made for it under the cockpit. Checkout the latest issue of the MainBrace, lot's of photos and information on the "new design" C-22's, and a whole lot more!

Don

 

[CloudDiver]

Hope to see some pictures on this issue too... I've got my money on just loose hanger bolts. As I mentioned before I doubt there is any slop is the keel pin itself because of the details Don posted about the way the 'new' MK II swing keels were built (the stainless busing in included in the design, no cast iron present to rust).