C&C 32

[john6206]

Hey all,

I just made an appointment to look at a C&C 32 (1981 I think), I‘ll be looking at it on Thursday afternoon.

People keep telling me it’s faster than average for a 1980’s boat of its size, and that makes me a little nervous. My wife would easily trade a knot of speed for a boat that stays on its feet. We are not racers, just aging sailors looking for a bit more comfort than our Capri 18 affords.

I’d appreciate any feedback you might have.

Of course all the basics apply…. Get a good survey - reef early to protect my marriage - save burying the rail for when I’m with my daughter (SHE should have been a racer) - AND GET A GOOD SURVEY!

 

[Foswick]

Well, the best answer is, "compared to what?" That is, what would you be comparing it to? It will be more stable than some boats and tippier than others.

It will be noticeably more stable and less "sporty" than your current ride.

A way to do some comparisons is to go to Sailboat Guide — Discover your dream boat and look up a boat. Scroll down to the calculations section and look at those numbers. Those are not perfect measures of actual performance, but they are a good starting point for comparing two vessels.

To illustrate how these numbers are not perfect, I compare my current boat (Fuji 32) with my previous boat (Catalina 27). By the numbers, the Fuji should feel more stable. In reality, it is probably more capsize-resistant, but it feels a bit tippier. This is subjective - I think because the boat is so much heavier, when it rolls, it feels more consequential. And, since the helm is less responsive than the tiller on the Catalina, I feel somewhat less in control in gusty weather.

But, that site explains exactly how it comes up with those numbers and approximately what they mean. So, like I said, a pretty good rough idea of what to expect.

I think you will find it plenty stable and not nearly as racy as you might have been lead to believe. It is a very capable coastal cruiser that people can and do cross oceans in. The only thing I would be (a tiny bit) concerned about is that it is a pretty big step up from an 18-footer. Your current boat sails like a dinghy, and the C&C will feel VERY different and be an entirely different experience to maintain. You might find that you bought too much boat and that you were actually happier when you had less boat. Or, you might find that your sweet spot is more like 24-27 feet. When you jump up so much at once, it is easy to overshoot your actual requirements and willingness to maintain.

We dodged a bullet when we passed on a Hans Christian 43 (moving up from our Catalina 27). I am finding the Fuji 32 to be at about my limits in terms of what I actually want under my feet. Not that I can't sail something larger, but I don't want to own it. I actually think that we might eventually downsize. We just aren't finding the additonal expense/hassle of the larger boat brings us a proportionate amount of pleasure. We'll give it a few years.

The advice to get the smallest boat you can live with is good advice.

 

[dLj]

I don't think the C&C 32 is overly tender. Are you looking at one with the center board or the fixed keel?

dj

 

[john6206]

@dLj fixed keel, it's a 6' draft, which shouldn't be a problem in the Great Lakes - but I should probably check with my marina.

@Foswick - Thanks! I checked sailboat data. It seems to be pretty moderate, I've read the reviews I could find online as well. Just wondered if anyone had first hand experience.

Compared to what? - I guess is my whole anxiety. I've sailed on a fair few boats including a Catalina 25, 27 and 30 and tons of trailerables. My wife's sailing experience is mostly limited to the two boats we've owned: Hunter 170 and Capri 18. The 170 sailed like a racing dinghy (except you didn't have to duck your head). My memory is that she quite enjoyed that boat, but once we traded up for that sweet, sweet 400 lbs of ballast, she never wanted to go back. The Capri is so much more stable. She now values stability above all.

BUT

I mostly limit sailing the Capri to Bays, I really have no basis of comparison to big boat, big wind, big waves.
So comparing at Capri 18 in Big Bay de Noc to a C&C 32 on Lake Michigan - it's a lot of variables.
I know we'll be fine and happy with whatever we end up with - I just want to maximize my odds of many happy sailing days.

The other boats we've looked at so far have been Catalina 30, Catalina 320, Sabre 30, Newport 31 - and we really wanted to look at a Beneteau 321, but he says he won't ready to show it until May.

Those also (of course) represent a wide range of price points.

 

[dLj]

I see no reason you won't love that C&C 32. Of all the boats you mentioned would be great. Main question is best boat for the money.

dj

 

[dlochner]

When people talk about "fast" sailboats, especially older sailboats, they are usually referring to a PHRF rating. These ratings are not perfect, but they do provide a measure of the relative speed of different boats.

For example, the C&C 32 and the Sabre 32 both have base ratings of 159 while a Sabre 30-1 and a Catalina 30 rate 180. The 32s are faster, but how much? In theory the 32s when sailing at their fastest should finish a mile about 21 seconds ahead of the 30s. On a race course, that's a lot. When day sailing, it doesn't matter, and on a 40 mile passage the 32s should finish about 15 minutes earlier than the 30s. If you peruse the ratings, you'll find that these boats are not speed demons. In real terms, the speed differences are measured in fractions of a knot which can be significant on the race course, otherwise not so much.

All of the boats your listed are decent boats with strengths and weaknesses. For example, the Sabre 30 (I owned one for many years sailing on Lake Ontario) is a very sea kindly boat, minimal pounding, pretty efficient hull, and fun to sail. However, it is a small 30 foot boat. The Catalina 30 is not noted for being a particularly speedy boat, but it does have a more spacious interior than the Sabre 30.

All things being equal, a boat that sails a bit faster is more fun to sail than one that is slower.

PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

PHRF New England is an independent handicapping authority whose handicaps are used by fleets sailing on Buzzards Bay, Massachusetts Bay, the Gulf of Maine, and Lake Winnipesauke.

www.phrfne.org

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Keep in mind that you are looking at a boat that is nearly 50 years old. It really depends on what improvements previous owners have made to keep it current and safe. Has the rigging ever been replaced? If so, when? It could easily need its 2nd or 3rd replacement. Budget for rigging replacement if nobody knows. Will it need to be repowered? It will be less expensive to buy a boat with current upgrades than to by a boat that needs to have everything replaced. C&C boats were known to be sold to the racer/cruiser market. You won't find anything particularly "high performance" at all. It is a compromise boat, as nearly all boats are. It was made to satisfy the comfort needs of cruisers who like to race. There is no reason to be fearful of its sailing characteristics.

However, it is not as modern a design as a Catalina 320 or Beneteau 321. It won't be nearly as roomy. The cockpit and aft cabin, in particular, will not satisfy. The cockpit will be more cramped and the aft cabin isn't even a cabin, it's a quarter berth. The beam is 1.5' less than a Cat 320 and LWL is over 3' less. When you are anchored & relaxing in the cockpit, the C&C will feel cramped while the Cat 320 will feel like a luxurious yacht by comparison. Don't underestimate how convenient is the swim platform. Not in my right mind would I ever consider a boat that has a transom like the C&C 32. How would you climb aboard from a dinghy?

You will have the same issues between a 25 to 30 year old Catalina and a 45 year old C&C. Everything that hasn't been replaced will need to be replaced, except possibly the diesel if it has been well cared for. Good luck with your search, but I would never again look for a boat that was made before the year 2000. Replacement costs for parts and the older, cramped designs simply would turn me away. I would not make a decision on the C&C without first looking at the Beneteau 321.

 

[shemandr]

C&C are great boats. But I would never buy one. They have a masthead rig which means they rely on the foresail for sail power. By and large the main is like a rudder. Since the foresail exists in clean air (No mast) they go upwind very well. Downwind they need at least a pole, or a spinnaker of some sort. In 1981 that meant a spinnaker pole.
The reason I would want a masthead rig is that the foresails are large and strenuous to tack. The OP says they are aging. A masthead rig wouldn't be my choice.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I'm guessing that you might be looking at a '81 C&C for around $20 K versus a 90's era Cat 320 in the range of $40 to $45 K? Design-wise, I don't know how you could possibly choose the C&C over the Catalina. They are so different with such clear advantages to the younger boats. I suspect that you will easily spend more than $20 K to make up the age difference in replacement needs. Looking on Yacht World, I saw a Cat 320 in Muskegon that is easily a better value at $49 K than any C&C 32 could ever be. The full enclosure and the boat cover alone makes it a better deal. I'm guessing that on the Great Lakes, relief from black head flies is almost priceless! My sailing season is extended by a good 3 months with an enclosure. I suppose that boat may already be sold. It looked like a good find.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You appear to be focused too much on the base sales price. I can't imagine that you would prefer an ancient boat compared to the more modern designs. Your focus on the base price is not the economical way to think, because you will be spending far more to bring it up to a safe and suitable standard with improvements. If ready cash is the factor, then get a loan. You have only a few years left before selling and paying it off. Consider the interest as just a necessary expense, like insurance and marina fees. Don't get stuck with an albatross (no offense to the bird). Get a boat you can eventually sell and one that you will enjoy the most. I saw lots of 320's on the market and hardly any C&C's. The popularity of the boat makes a difference when you need to sell. I suspect you won't find buyers for a 1981 boat.

I've been thinking about the same thing and I noticed that listing prices for my vintage 320 have actually increased slightly since I bought the boat 5 years ago. But I have also spent a lot of money on her. So, owning a boat is definitely NOT economical, but being satisfied is critical.

BTW, the Beneteau 321 also seems to be holding value pretty well over the past 5 years as I looked at those models as well. The selection on Yacht World is also pretty strong. They are popular boats similar to the Catalina 320. I don't know how you could actually prefer an older C&C.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

One thing to note between the C30 and the C&C is the shape of the hull forward of the keel. The C30 has a relatively wide, flat bottom. This will lead to smacking down on larger waves where as the C&C is more V shaped. The V shape should cut through the water with much more grace. This should result in a much more comfortable ride

 

[dLj]

@Scott T-Bird - with all due respect, for any second hand boat it all depends upon condition.

If the C&C the OP is looking at has been well maintained and the others have not, I would not hesitate to get the C&C.

You wouldn't get any boat prior to 2000? Well, mine is from 1984 and I can tell you that it is far better built than newer boats. This is a solid fiberglass boat - they just don't make them like this anymore.

Space? I had a crew join me in the Canaries and when she sat in my main saloon asked me, "What size did you say this boat is?". When I answered 41 feet she looked around and said amazing, it feels bigger than the modern 50 footer she just came off.

The bottom line - get the boat you like, meets your budget, and has been well maintained.

dj

 

[Foswick]

I can't imagine that you would prefer an ancient boat compared to the more modern designs.

I can think of a bunch of reasons not to buy a newer boat. As DJ says in post #11, it depends on the condition of the boat.

If ready cash is the factor, then get a loan.

I would never advise someone to borrow money to buy a boat. If that is the right decision for a person, they will come to that conclusion on their own. But, in general, I don't think it is advisable to go into debt to become a boat owner.

Get a boat you can eventually sell and one that you will enjoy the most.

Those are two entirely separate considerations. Buying a boat with any assumptions about it resale value is a pretty sketchy proposition. They are not assets that hold their value reliably. Way too many factors - some you can control and some you can't. Boat enjoyment has nothing to do with resale value.

I suspect you won't find buyers for a 1981 boat.

Not true at all. C&Cs have solid reputations and there is a strong market for them.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

@Scott T-Bird - with all due respect, for any second hand boat it all depends upon condition.

If the C&C the OP is looking at has been well maintained and the others have not, I would not hesitate to get the C&C.

You wouldn't get any boat prior to 2000? Well, mine is from 1984 and I can tell you that it is far better built than newer boats. This is a solid fiberglass boat - they just don't make them like this anymore.

Perhaps I wrote with too few caveats. Of course condition matters. My perspective is that C&C was basically a mass-producer similar to most of the others at the time but with a bit more of a racing orientation. It was most likely ridden very hard for much of its life. I think it is pretty unlikely that you could find a 45 year-old C&C with fewer needs than a 20- to 25 year-old Catalina or Beneteau (when you find the right one). Your odds of finding a 45 year-old C&C that is better than the condition of a 25 year-old Catalina or Beneteau are particularly slim when you can only find possibly one on the market versus a multitude of 25 year-old options. But, of course, that doesn't rule out the chance. So, as they said in Dumb & Dumber, "so you're saying there's a chance!"

As for your Belliure, that seems to be a relatively obscure and unique build that perhaps is a bit more timeless than a standard production boat so we're not really comparing apples to apples. Besides that, however, I would guess that there are more modern designs for a blue water cruising yacht that you would prefer if the budget was realistically in your range. As we all know, compromises are always a factor. As another post suggested, advising for debt is not something he would do. I understand that sentiment. Accepting debt is just another compromise that we often face in life. Of course it would be great not to be in that position. Accepting some debt to enrich your life isn't necessarily a horrible option but it's not for everyone and of course I realize that.

I don't have any knock against C&C boats as I realize they do have a strong reputation. My objection is purely based on the odds of condition and the reality of accommodations built into the design. And my argument about the relative economy still stands.

 

[dLj]

@Scott T-Bird - all very good points. One thing I would point out however, is that 45 year old boat, if it hasn't been well maintained will show it quite clearly. As you say, they may have been sailed hard.

However, at that age it's more likely that it has needed systems fixed and updated or it would be likely in quite poor shape. Whereas the 20 to 25 year old boat may not have yet needed those fixes or upgrades. As clearly we both agree - it's all about condition.

You are also right it's not a good comparison to use my Belliure as an example - production boats and custom made boats are different horses. Probably a better pont on that is it's not so much age but design and condition. Another take away is - go look at all the options. See what really makes you love the boat. By the way, there was a typo in my post above, I was trying to say all the boats listed could be excellent options. I didn't make that clear.

As to if there is a more modern boat independent of price that I would prefer over my Belliure. Truly no, not really. I was actually at the Annapolis boat show and a dock mate had asked me to take photos of the cabinets in one of the very high end boats, the $1m+ boats, and as I was standing in line to see it, someone said to me, "isn't that just your dream boat?" I answered, "no, actually I already own my dream boat."

dj

 

[dlochner]

C&Cs were originally built in Hamilton, Ontario on Lake Ontario. As a result there are many C&Cs. The build quality on the C&C was above average. There was a pretty large labor pool in the western end of Lake Ontario, in addition to C&C, Hinterholder, was building boats there, producing the Niagara line and the Nonsuch line, Canadian Sailcraft (CS) was building boats with the CS 30 and CS 36 being popular (@mainesail owned a CS36) and a smattering of other lesser known brands. For boats of that era, C&C produced boats that sailed well on the race course and made comfortable weekend and summer vacation cruisers. Some of the larger boats, 35+ are still out there cruising and have a strong following.

Given a choice between a C&C 32, Sabre 30, Catalina 30, and a Newport, I would opt for the Sabre 30, the C&C would be a second choice. I did consider a CS 30 which was more performance oriented, but the other half nixed that. The Newport would be at the bottom of the list, the build quality was not as good as the Sabre and C&C.

Find the boat that makes your heart flutter and then find the one that is in the best condition. That will make you happiest in the long run.

 

[dLj]

Find the boat that makes your heart flutter and then find the one that is in the best condition. That will make you happiest in the long run.

+1!

dj

 

[Tally Ho]

Find the boat that makes your heart flutter and then find the one that is in the best condition. That will make you happiest in the long run.

The boat that caught my eye was my current O’Day 32, but I missed the chance to purchase her when I first saw her…so I bought a “rebound” boat (A Hunter 280). Both boats met my checklist of equipment (but the Hunter was 2 feet shy of my “30-foot minimum” for Lake Michigan). But she was 12 years newer and well maintained…

But when the O’Day 322 came up for sale 5 years later, I did not hesitate…and bought her!

Wife wasn’t too happy when I referred to the boats as “my fleet”! But luckily sold the Hunter before winter.

Dave’s point is spot-on… buy the boat that makes you happy


Greg

 

[dlochner]

Years before I bought Second Star, a Sabre 362, I saw one at the Atlantic City Boat Show. I was smitten and realized I would never be able to afford one.

One day looking at boat listings from a nearby (170 miles away) broker I saw a 362 listed for an almost affordable amount. As I walked out the door early one Saturday in September, I asked my not yet wife, if it would be OK to put in an offer if I liked the boat. After the eye roll, the answer was "whatever." Six weeks later we owned Second Star and Identity Crisis a Sabre 30.

 

[JRacer]

@Foswick Re: your second point on financing the purchase of the boat. Whether you borrow money to buy the boat or not, you are in for a penny or in for a pound! The ante is just the beginning. As we all know, it's the raises and the calls that you have to have the wherewithal to overcome.
PS: bought my first boat, the J24, on an owner carryback when the interest rates were 20+ percent in the early 80's. Best deal of my life. Sold 30+ years later for about the same money as I paid for it. But the cost to carry on the debt was a pittance compared to the operating cost for campaigning that boat for 30 years. Wouldn't change a thing! It's no different with the Beneteau First 310, just that the "parts" cost more!

 

[Foswick]

@Foswick Re: your second point on financing the purchase of the boat. Whether you borrow money to buy the boat or not, you are in for a penny or in for a pound!

Yeah, it is the right decision for some people. Like I said, I would just never advise someone to do it. If it is right for them, they'll do it without my counsel. And, I wouldn't want to be the person that encouraged them to do so.

I mean, for us, it is never about the money. Owning a boat costs money ... pretty much all the time. We get enough enjoyment, throughout the year, to feel OK with the money it cost us that year. (Most years, but not every year. I'm looking at you, 2023.) It is one of the main things we do for enjoyment.

So, that's what I tell people. If the amount of money you spend in a year is worth the enjoyment, then the exact math doesn't really matter. Every part of boat ownership is purely elective - none of us must own a boat. We just have a certain variety of masochism.