For anyone interested, attached is the review of the Catalina 36 in the March Boat US magazine (may be a bit hard to read).
C 36 Boat US Review
- Thread starter Allan R
- Start date
- Status
SV what did you think?
I was a little disappointed with the construction. This is not the boat I though it was.
I was a little disappointed with the construction. This is not the boat I though it was.
Waffle could you elaborate more ?
What part of what is written was not the boat you though it was ?! I'd really like to hear what specifically it was you are refering to. I guess I can understand your interpretation of a written article, but does it have anything to do with your own experience or anyone you know? Or are you reading too much into it. I recall the Practical Sailor review a few years back (much more thorough than this one page article) and while it didn't "claim it to be a Hinckley" I recall that it was a very positive review of the C36 as a solid and good sailing boat, yes there were a few observations, but what boat is perfect? As far as construction it is very typical of most sailboats and actually a much tougher boat than many production boats out there. Just reading some direct accounts from C36 owners that have run their boats into "bad situations" and survived (boat in tact) is a testament to to sturdiness and build of the Catalina 36. (I happen to know. I am one of two Technical editors for the Catalina 36 I have been for over 6 years and I have be exposed to almost nuance & every issue that has come up with the C36) If you are commenting on the stem head fitting, it is something to look for but nothing exceptional & especially for some 20+ year old boats. Metal on hard used boats sometimes fail and very few C36 boats have even seen an issue. They are actually very rare issues, but the "owners association" felt it better to make everyone aware, even if it meant alerting most people that would never have a reason to worry (our reasoning is - better to have everyone check and 0.1% might catch something). There are many many different types of boats out there and many issues that have occured, but I challenge you to tell me how many boats or manufacturers post every single issue that might have been spotted for the world to see. I don't care if its a Sabre or a Tarten or a Hinckley, etc. Some new boats (even the best) after a few years old have their issues , but you never hear about it. There is a reason for it . Their production runs might be 100 hulls if they are lucky and have a really successful boat. If two or three boats have an issue you will never hear about it. Thats still 2-3 percent. 1 Percent in a production run of 2000 is 20 hulls and being the C36 Tech editor I can honestly say I have never seen that many issues. I could argue that the Catalina 36 actually has a better track record than many boats out there. With 25 years & 2400 hulls and the record it has - It has truly stood the test of time. These boats are still sailing hard, standing up well and still looking great. I doubt Jack Horner (who wrote that article) would have EVER said anything about the two rare issues he actually talked about [(a)stem head fittings and (b)Westerbeke Camshaft sleeve] if it wasn't for the Catalina 36 Website. I personally was involved in submitting and writing those articles on the Catalina36.org website. We have over 2400 C36's out there, and there have been maybe only a handfull of these issues. Because we are an "owners association" we are free to write and post what we might observe - though as mentioned earlier we don't feel its an issue, just something we like to make sure everyone checks on. Try to find that will most other boats people own. In most cases you there are all sorts of individual issues, but you won't know about it and you won't hear anything. After all is said and done, you will find the C36 is more solid and well built than 99% of us need it to be and a more special boat than many on the water ( how many 25 year run 36 foot boats do you know about?? There is something very 'right' about this boat) There is another thing you will rarely find of the Caliber aqnd Quality with the C36 and that the Catalina 36 International Organization. Even Jack Horner the writer of the article had to admit --> "It is always nice when there is a strong support network for used boat buyers and the CATALINA 36 HAS ONE OF THE BEST. The Catalina Owners association has 10 fleets nationwide and a website at Catalina36.org Which is the most impressive and helpful I have ever seen" As proud as I am about the above statement it doesn't mean a thing, because even if there never was a Catalina 36 IA I would still be very impressed with the C36 as a boat (as 2400 owners over 25 years would agree to) Just like the article said at the end --> "All things considered, the pros certainly outweigh the cons for anyone looking for an affordable cruising boat in the 36 foot range"
What part of what is written was not the boat you though it was ?! I'd really like to hear what specifically it was you are refering to. I guess I can understand your interpretation of a written article, but does it have anything to do with your own experience or anyone you know? Or are you reading too much into it. I recall the Practical Sailor review a few years back (much more thorough than this one page article) and while it didn't "claim it to be a Hinckley" I recall that it was a very positive review of the C36 as a solid and good sailing boat, yes there were a few observations, but what boat is perfect? As far as construction it is very typical of most sailboats and actually a much tougher boat than many production boats out there. Just reading some direct accounts from C36 owners that have run their boats into "bad situations" and survived (boat in tact) is a testament to to sturdiness and build of the Catalina 36. (I happen to know. I am one of two Technical editors for the Catalina 36 I have been for over 6 years and I have be exposed to almost nuance & every issue that has come up with the C36) If you are commenting on the stem head fitting, it is something to look for but nothing exceptional & especially for some 20+ year old boats. Metal on hard used boats sometimes fail and very few C36 boats have even seen an issue. They are actually very rare issues, but the "owners association" felt it better to make everyone aware, even if it meant alerting most people that would never have a reason to worry (our reasoning is - better to have everyone check and 0.1% might catch something). There are many many different types of boats out there and many issues that have occured, but I challenge you to tell me how many boats or manufacturers post every single issue that might have been spotted for the world to see. I don't care if its a Sabre or a Tarten or a Hinckley, etc. Some new boats (even the best) after a few years old have their issues , but you never hear about it. There is a reason for it . Their production runs might be 100 hulls if they are lucky and have a really successful boat. If two or three boats have an issue you will never hear about it. Thats still 2-3 percent. 1 Percent in a production run of 2000 is 20 hulls and being the C36 Tech editor I can honestly say I have never seen that many issues. I could argue that the Catalina 36 actually has a better track record than many boats out there. With 25 years & 2400 hulls and the record it has - It has truly stood the test of time. These boats are still sailing hard, standing up well and still looking great. I doubt Jack Horner (who wrote that article) would have EVER said anything about the two rare issues he actually talked about [(a)stem head fittings and (b)Westerbeke Camshaft sleeve] if it wasn't for the Catalina 36 Website. I personally was involved in submitting and writing those articles on the Catalina36.org website. We have over 2400 C36's out there, and there have been maybe only a handfull of these issues. Because we are an "owners association" we are free to write and post what we might observe - though as mentioned earlier we don't feel its an issue, just something we like to make sure everyone checks on. Try to find that will most other boats people own. In most cases you there are all sorts of individual issues, but you won't know about it and you won't hear anything. After all is said and done, you will find the C36 is more solid and well built than 99% of us need it to be and a more special boat than many on the water ( how many 25 year run 36 foot boats do you know about?? There is something very 'right' about this boat) There is another thing you will rarely find of the Caliber aqnd Quality with the C36 and that the Catalina 36 International Organization. Even Jack Horner the writer of the article had to admit --> "It is always nice when there is a strong support network for used boat buyers and the CATALINA 36 HAS ONE OF THE BEST. The Catalina Owners association has 10 fleets nationwide and a website at Catalina36.org Which is the most impressive and helpful I have ever seen" As proud as I am about the above statement it doesn't mean a thing, because even if there never was a Catalina 36 IA I would still be very impressed with the C36 as a boat (as 2400 owners over 25 years would agree to) Just like the article said at the end --> "All things considered, the pros certainly outweigh the cons for anyone looking for an affordable cruising boat in the 36 foot range"
My Opinion
I am not as eloquent as Tom in writing this, but very much agree with what he said. I have no regrets in owning a C36 and think it is a very good boat and for the most part think the article states as much as well. Nothing is perfect and when it comes down to it, we have to balance everything out (cost included) and make our best decision based on that; I think value for dollar on the C36 is near the top and have no regrets in my purchase.
I am not as eloquent as Tom in writing this, but very much agree with what he said. I have no regrets in owning a C36 and think it is a very good boat and for the most part think the article states as much as well. Nothing is perfect and when it comes down to it, we have to balance everything out (cost included) and make our best decision based on that; I think value for dollar on the C36 is near the top and have no regrets in my purchase.
The deck to hull joint is a major issue with me.
The deck to hull joint is a major issue with me. Please refer to paragraph 4 of the review. Everyone is going to have a minor docking incident sooner or later. Water leaking into the core because of a minor docking incident is unacceptable! I would much prefer a strong steel toe rail. How about bumper trim around the transom. Second, is there a cheaper deck coring material than plywood? How much more can foam cored deck cost. Third, why did Catalina place the jib sheet winches in front of the steering wheel? Did they think my wife was going to man them! Well, she is not! I do like the boat because of it’s a tradition design but you are support to get what you pay for. Builder such as Dufour and Bavaria are addressing these items at prices comparable to Catalina. Is Catalina becoming the Ford or Chevy of boat building? Never Happy, Waffle
The deck to hull joint is a major issue with me. Please refer to paragraph 4 of the review. Everyone is going to have a minor docking incident sooner or later. Water leaking into the core because of a minor docking incident is unacceptable! I would much prefer a strong steel toe rail. How about bumper trim around the transom. Second, is there a cheaper deck coring material than plywood? How much more can foam cored deck cost. Third, why did Catalina place the jib sheet winches in front of the steering wheel? Did they think my wife was going to man them! Well, she is not! I do like the boat because of it’s a tradition design but you are support to get what you pay for. Builder such as Dufour and Bavaria are addressing these items at prices comparable to Catalina. Is Catalina becoming the Ford or Chevy of boat building? Never Happy, Waffle
Some of the assumptions & data is either old
or not totally valid. I could see a few concerns you might have, but many are unwarranted. Not saying it doesn't happen but leaking hull to deck joints has never come up as a big concern for the C36. I have over 20 years of Tech Notes written by owners about issues they have had with their boat (BTW this is available to anyone on a CD from the C36IA if you want) and I can't say as I've ever had someone really complain. Your concern about water leaking into the core because of a minor docking incident (or any other reason) is totally unwarranted. I can guarantee that. One of the upsides of the Catalina 36 is that its hull is solid fiberglass there is no "core" to saturate. Just curious, do you know of anyone that has a C36 and has had an issue with their hull to deck joint leaking? Please have them contact me as I have would like to learn more about it, I've just never had anyone approach the Association with that problem. Now if you talk about leaking hatches and port holes, that is something I have heard over the years, but these are not hard to fix and something I consider part of boat ownership. (Just as an FYI Catalina does have a few boats like the Catalina Morgan Deck Salon 440 that is built with the "internal flange" hull to deck design, but I feel that is more appropriate for those bigger heavier boats) As far as a perforated metal toe rail, I like them too, I had one on my old Watkins 27. The reason I like them is more for utility and having a place to attach things to if need be. There are a few Catalina's that have steel toe rails (C440?). The big down side is how uncomfortable they are sitting on the toe rail with your legs hanging over the side. As far as the "bumper" around the transom, well I guess one could do that. I know many Hunters have that and I believe the new C309 has it. I guess they could do that with any boat that has a reversed transom, but personally, I think it ruins the lines of the hull. I don't know if you know this, but I believe many boats that do have the "bumper" around the transom is where the Hull To Deck joint is on the sterns of those boats. I really don't think you need to worry about the structural integrity of the hull to deck joint . Not saying it'll survive a collision with an ocean liner, but I have pictures of C36's that were ravaged at their docks from hurricanes and in many cases the hull to deck joint was not the worst part of the boat. The person that wrote that article misled you by implying all or most C36's decks are cored with plywood. They are not. Catalina has changed the material over time and in the 80's marine plywood was considered more than acceptable. (Many top named builders used it at the time). Catalina switched over to special cut end-grain balsa for coring their decks a long time ago. Many marine architects even consider it superior to foam and I agree. While both plastic foam and cut end-grain balsa eliminate wicking in the case of water incursion, the foam lacks the "Vertical" structural integrity that the balsa has in spades. Many foam cored decks will get "sponge spots" where the foam "collapses" over time, while the balsa is very sturdy in the vertical axis. Check a boat with foam cored decks after 20 years and check most balsa wood cored decks. I totally understand your comments on the winches being in front of the steering wheel, but it seems a lot of boats are like that. I have learned to manage that by sitting on the coaming with one hand on the helm and winch from there. I even brought that very same comment on the winch placement to Gerry Douglas, the chief designer at Catalina and his comment was that he understood, but immediately added "why don't you add an extra set of winches placed back where you'd like them". I must admit, I never really though of that. Then he went on to tell me that is exactly what he did on his C42 (and I think he implied he did it on his C36 when he owned that). He said that if installed properly it would be fine. Yes it'll cost some money, but if you really want it, it would only be a fraction of the cost of what a new boat is. As far as other boat builders I do think the Dufour is a nicely built boat just not necessarily right for me. But I wouldn't compare a Bavaria to a Catalina . I won't go into it here, but they are not what you might think they are. But even then both those boats scrimp on price when it comes to keel material. Instead of using the superior antimony lead keel , they use the cheaper cast iron keel. Jack Hornor, the person that wrote that article did an admiral job for the space and time allotted. It was really a very general article on the C36. All too often when people write these articles that have to glean information they best they can and really miss information or very salient points that can take way too much time to research. I can guarantee you that much of the information he wrote was from our website. If you really want to find out how a Catalina is built "now a days" I would go to the Catalina Yachts website. They have an article "white paper" that you can order (or maybe see on the website) that's titled "The Art and Science of Building a Catalina". It is VERY thorough and goes into depth on all the concerns it seems like you might have. After reading this article and seeing the pictures, I think your eyes will be open & will be much more impressed than you would have thought. Persoanlly I think they Catalina's are moving out of being "Chevy's" to "Honda's"
or not totally valid. I could see a few concerns you might have, but many are unwarranted. Not saying it doesn't happen but leaking hull to deck joints has never come up as a big concern for the C36. I have over 20 years of Tech Notes written by owners about issues they have had with their boat (BTW this is available to anyone on a CD from the C36IA if you want) and I can't say as I've ever had someone really complain. Your concern about water leaking into the core because of a minor docking incident (or any other reason) is totally unwarranted. I can guarantee that. One of the upsides of the Catalina 36 is that its hull is solid fiberglass there is no "core" to saturate. Just curious, do you know of anyone that has a C36 and has had an issue with their hull to deck joint leaking? Please have them contact me as I have would like to learn more about it, I've just never had anyone approach the Association with that problem. Now if you talk about leaking hatches and port holes, that is something I have heard over the years, but these are not hard to fix and something I consider part of boat ownership. (Just as an FYI Catalina does have a few boats like the Catalina Morgan Deck Salon 440 that is built with the "internal flange" hull to deck design, but I feel that is more appropriate for those bigger heavier boats) As far as a perforated metal toe rail, I like them too, I had one on my old Watkins 27. The reason I like them is more for utility and having a place to attach things to if need be. There are a few Catalina's that have steel toe rails (C440?). The big down side is how uncomfortable they are sitting on the toe rail with your legs hanging over the side. As far as the "bumper" around the transom, well I guess one could do that. I know many Hunters have that and I believe the new C309 has it. I guess they could do that with any boat that has a reversed transom, but personally, I think it ruins the lines of the hull. I don't know if you know this, but I believe many boats that do have the "bumper" around the transom is where the Hull To Deck joint is on the sterns of those boats. I really don't think you need to worry about the structural integrity of the hull to deck joint . Not saying it'll survive a collision with an ocean liner, but I have pictures of C36's that were ravaged at their docks from hurricanes and in many cases the hull to deck joint was not the worst part of the boat. The person that wrote that article misled you by implying all or most C36's decks are cored with plywood. They are not. Catalina has changed the material over time and in the 80's marine plywood was considered more than acceptable. (Many top named builders used it at the time). Catalina switched over to special cut end-grain balsa for coring their decks a long time ago. Many marine architects even consider it superior to foam and I agree. While both plastic foam and cut end-grain balsa eliminate wicking in the case of water incursion, the foam lacks the "Vertical" structural integrity that the balsa has in spades. Many foam cored decks will get "sponge spots" where the foam "collapses" over time, while the balsa is very sturdy in the vertical axis. Check a boat with foam cored decks after 20 years and check most balsa wood cored decks. I totally understand your comments on the winches being in front of the steering wheel, but it seems a lot of boats are like that. I have learned to manage that by sitting on the coaming with one hand on the helm and winch from there. I even brought that very same comment on the winch placement to Gerry Douglas, the chief designer at Catalina and his comment was that he understood, but immediately added "why don't you add an extra set of winches placed back where you'd like them". I must admit, I never really though of that. Then he went on to tell me that is exactly what he did on his C42 (and I think he implied he did it on his C36 when he owned that). He said that if installed properly it would be fine. Yes it'll cost some money, but if you really want it, it would only be a fraction of the cost of what a new boat is. As far as other boat builders I do think the Dufour is a nicely built boat just not necessarily right for me. But I wouldn't compare a Bavaria to a Catalina . I won't go into it here, but they are not what you might think they are. But even then both those boats scrimp on price when it comes to keel material. Instead of using the superior antimony lead keel , they use the cheaper cast iron keel. Jack Hornor, the person that wrote that article did an admiral job for the space and time allotted. It was really a very general article on the C36. All too often when people write these articles that have to glean information they best they can and really miss information or very salient points that can take way too much time to research. I can guarantee you that much of the information he wrote was from our website. If you really want to find out how a Catalina is built "now a days" I would go to the Catalina Yachts website. They have an article "white paper" that you can order (or maybe see on the website) that's titled "The Art and Science of Building a Catalina". It is VERY thorough and goes into depth on all the concerns it seems like you might have. After reading this article and seeing the pictures, I think your eyes will be open & will be much more impressed than you would have thought. Persoanlly I think they Catalina's are moving out of being "Chevy's" to "Honda's"
I resemble that!
OK, I finally got to use that phrase in a functional manner, since our C34s and C36s are so alike in build and systems. Tom's right, and it's not worth repeating his points. His C36 website and our C34 'site reflect each other's concern with their boats and systems and provide invaluable information. We swap stories and posts and information. Hull to deck joints are a non-issue on our boats. C36s have 2200, our run is about 1800 hulls. No reports of damage to joints on our boats either, even through the recent spate of hurricanes. My issue here is with the "winches in front of the wheel" thing. I must admit, Waffle, I do not understand your "mini-rant." Who ever thought you'd ever get married? *o The winches were placed where they are because back when they designed our boats in the early 1980's that's where they belong and still belong. Having winches aft doesn't work for when you're racing with crew -- where would all the bodies go? And I'm sure some folks will want to race their new C309s. I know not everyone races. But winches have been there for many, many years for good reason. You could ask your wife to steer and you could do the grunt work, and if the winches were back there, you'd be getting in her way all the time.
I single-hand a lot, and LIKE the winches where they are, because I rarely stand behind the wheel. Our autopilot is located on the starboard coaming in line with the wheel (we have a ST3000 and it works!!!), so I can access it from either side of the wheel. Those with autopilots with readouts and controls behind the wheel are now "slaves" to being behind the wheel to run the autopilot, when one of the purposes or at least attributes of the autopilot itself, besides steering, is to get the crew out from being there. I do understand that the newer boats with their huge array of controls on higher pedestals has placed a lot of the information behind the wheel, which is a good thing. So if there's all that info there, and the person behind the wheel is attending to it, how they gonna find time to do the winch work? ;D When I saw the newer Catalinas with the jib sheet winches back by the wheel, I thought, "Oh, no, another idea as bad as putting them on the cabin top!"
OK, I finally got to use that phrase in a functional manner, since our C34s and C36s are so alike in build and systems. Tom's right, and it's not worth repeating his points. His C36 website and our C34 'site reflect each other's concern with their boats and systems and provide invaluable information. We swap stories and posts and information. Hull to deck joints are a non-issue on our boats. C36s have 2200, our run is about 1800 hulls. No reports of damage to joints on our boats either, even through the recent spate of hurricanes. My issue here is with the "winches in front of the wheel" thing. I must admit, Waffle, I do not understand your "mini-rant." Who ever thought you'd ever get married? *o The winches were placed where they are because back when they designed our boats in the early 1980's that's where they belong and still belong. Having winches aft doesn't work for when you're racing with crew -- where would all the bodies go? And I'm sure some folks will want to race their new C309s. I know not everyone races. But winches have been there for many, many years for good reason. You could ask your wife to steer and you could do the grunt work, and if the winches were back there, you'd be getting in her way all the time.
I single-hand a lot, and LIKE the winches where they are, because I rarely stand behind the wheel. Our autopilot is located on the starboard coaming in line with the wheel (we have a ST3000 and it works!!!), so I can access it from either side of the wheel. Those with autopilots with readouts and controls behind the wheel are now "slaves" to being behind the wheel to run the autopilot, when one of the purposes or at least attributes of the autopilot itself, besides steering, is to get the crew out from being there. I do understand that the newer boats with their huge array of controls on higher pedestals has placed a lot of the information behind the wheel, which is a good thing. So if there's all that info there, and the person behind the wheel is attending to it, how they gonna find time to do the winch work? ;D When I saw the newer Catalinas with the jib sheet winches back by the wheel, I thought, "Oh, no, another idea as bad as putting them on the cabin top!" Tom and Stu, I tink you have good points.
the article did make me rethink how I felt about Catalina. I really like the 36 layout. I read more into it then purhaps I should have. I would like a bumper on the transom regardless of looks. The C36 is a GREAT Boat!
the article did make me rethink how I felt about Catalina. I really like the 36 layout. I read more into it then purhaps I should have. I would like a bumper on the transom regardless of looks. The C36 is a GREAT Boat!
- Status