Sorry for this long diatribe, but have any of you heard of the following quirks? We took delivery in San Diego on our new (serial number 41304) 410 this past Tuesday. The wind was calm in the marina and the temperature was warm. After motoring out into the main channel, the main and jib were raised and the boat started to show its stuff. After clearing Point Loma, the breeze freshened to over 20 knots and I was in heaven. We went out toward a couple of entrance bouys and gybed back and assumed a port tack. After a short while, I heard two noticeably (loud) cracks. I saw our delivery skipper and my salesman go below and huddle near the nav station. I was too engrossed to have enough sense to find out what was going on when they came up and said that they were going to lower sail and motor in the rest of the way. The wind was still blowing and furling the main took some effort. The jib also rolled up too tight and there wasn't enough line left to allow two wraps around the head stay. After we docked, (backing; I did it perfectly) they showed me that the bulkhead had separated from the hull behind the nav station seat. They examined the port chainplate and could not detect anything out of the normal. After getting the head service guy in, and a call to Hunter, it was decided that this particular bulkhead may have been configured too close to its tolerances, and when the wind put the boat into a 18 plus/minus heel, the thing separated. You can see the caulking in the shower gave way. We decided that the boat was sound and the next day I brought her up the coast to Newport Beach during a very wet, cold and foggy night sail. Except for a wonderful school of porpoise, and having to divert around a research vessel off La Jolla, the trip was uneventful. I love our boat. Have any of you experienced or heard of this bulkhead problem. Hunter is going to make repairs. I just remembered. The sink in the aft head won't drain. I was told that 410's have a design problem and the drain pipe is situated that the water takes forever to go down to the holding tank. A solution is still on the drawing boards. John Richard s/v Jack's Place
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Delivery Blues..
Glad to see you took delivery, John. Doesn't sound at all serious, but a disappointment none the less. I don't think it should be difficult. Interior bulkheads don't appear to be critical to the hull integrity as classical construction. For whatever reason, you appear to be one of one. After participating in this site for several years, I never heard of this issue before. Be sure you post their analysis and repair for the records. See you in Catalina. Rick Dinon
Glad to see you took delivery, John. Doesn't sound at all serious, but a disappointment none the less. I don't think it should be difficult. Interior bulkheads don't appear to be critical to the hull integrity as classical construction. For whatever reason, you appear to be one of one. After participating in this site for several years, I never heard of this issue before. Be sure you post their analysis and repair for the records. See you in Catalina. Rick Dinon
on the drawing boards?
The problem with the 410 vanities (the one in the forward head is just as bad as the aft one with which you're having trouble) is that the seacocks are in different compartments, which requires a horizontal run. Mine clog on a fairly regular basis, but are easily cleared with a plunger. Be very careful only to apply force on the upstroke(suction)or you'll blow the hoses off their fittings. ......... Can't help you in regard to the bulkhead problem, but I'd be *very* concerned about hull flexing in such close proximity to the port chainplate. Were it my boat, I'd be calling a marine surveyor ASAP.
The problem with the 410 vanities (the one in the forward head is just as bad as the aft one with which you're having trouble) is that the seacocks are in different compartments, which requires a horizontal run. Mine clog on a fairly regular basis, but are easily cleared with a plunger. Be very careful only to apply force on the upstroke(suction)or you'll blow the hoses off their fittings. ......... Can't help you in regard to the bulkhead problem, but I'd be *very* concerned about hull flexing in such close proximity to the port chainplate. Were it my boat, I'd be calling a marine surveyor ASAP.
Hunter Quality Control
From your description of bulkhead separation, it sounds to me like Hunter Quality Control was asleep when that bulkhead was installed. You have to wonder why the bulhead would separate from the brand new hull under light to moderate conditions. Two possibilities come to mind. 1. The hull is too thin and flexes too much, causing the bond of hull to bulkhead to separate. 2. The bond of the bulkhead to the hull was structurally unsound due to poor surface preparation, bad resin, insufficient bonding material, workmanship, etc. That would give me cause for concern about the rest of the structural members that are bonded to the inside of the hull, like the load distributing grid in the floor, and other bulkheads. With the failure history you have experienced, I would demand that Hunter pay for a marine survey (just the structural part) of your brand new vessel to insure that it has structural integrity. After all, the warranty ain't going to do you a lot of good when you are foundering 20 miles offshore. Your heirs might benefit financially from it. And for the sink drain not draining. This design has been in existence for several years and they still haven't solved the sink drain problem? I figure that when I am ready to upgrade my H37.5, I won't even consider an H410. Not when I hear about problems like this.
From your description of bulkhead separation, it sounds to me like Hunter Quality Control was asleep when that bulkhead was installed. You have to wonder why the bulhead would separate from the brand new hull under light to moderate conditions. Two possibilities come to mind. 1. The hull is too thin and flexes too much, causing the bond of hull to bulkhead to separate. 2. The bond of the bulkhead to the hull was structurally unsound due to poor surface preparation, bad resin, insufficient bonding material, workmanship, etc. That would give me cause for concern about the rest of the structural members that are bonded to the inside of the hull, like the load distributing grid in the floor, and other bulkheads. With the failure history you have experienced, I would demand that Hunter pay for a marine survey (just the structural part) of your brand new vessel to insure that it has structural integrity. After all, the warranty ain't going to do you a lot of good when you are foundering 20 miles offshore. Your heirs might benefit financially from it. And for the sink drain not draining. This design has been in existence for several years and they still haven't solved the sink drain problem? I figure that when I am ready to upgrade my H37.5, I won't even consider an H410. Not when I hear about problems like this.
sounds familiar
Hi John: Sorry to hear that the first outing had some challenges, but glad to hear that you're in the water. While my bulkhead panel behind the nav station didn't totally release, it definitely 'gave way' - I have minor cracks where the top of the panel fits into the liner just before the hull. The other bulkhead panel that has 'shifted' is in the aft cabin, starboard side, rear panel. Neither moved panel appears to have caused any structural issues. The aft shower molded fiberglass competely separated behind the nav bulkhead but a healthy amount of silicone has resolved that. No additional cracking has appeared in that shower unit so the repair with added flexibilty seems to be okay. Both the sink drains and the head output hoses have long (8-9 foot) horizontal runs to the seacocks - keep pouring white vinegar down the drains on a very regular basis. If you are not going to use the boat for any length of time, I would recommend flushing the head intake hoses with lots of fresh water before you put the boat up - the horizontal hose run is ideal for sea creatures to hang on to and when they die and you come down to the boat after a week or two of warm weather... well, you get the point. I would have gladly given up the small storage space under both vanities so the macerators and output thru hulls could be located close to the appliances. I had the aft macerator moved from the storage compartment behind the headboard to under the berth anyway. I still think the H410 is one of the most liveable boats with an awful lot of performance - mine is truly a dream to sail and I have all the 'creature comforts'. I hope you and your wife really enjoy your new boat - and keep us posted. Fair winds, /c s/v Twilight, H410
Hi John: Sorry to hear that the first outing had some challenges, but glad to hear that you're in the water. While my bulkhead panel behind the nav station didn't totally release, it definitely 'gave way' - I have minor cracks where the top of the panel fits into the liner just before the hull. The other bulkhead panel that has 'shifted' is in the aft cabin, starboard side, rear panel. Neither moved panel appears to have caused any structural issues. The aft shower molded fiberglass competely separated behind the nav bulkhead but a healthy amount of silicone has resolved that. No additional cracking has appeared in that shower unit so the repair with added flexibilty seems to be okay. Both the sink drains and the head output hoses have long (8-9 foot) horizontal runs to the seacocks - keep pouring white vinegar down the drains on a very regular basis. If you are not going to use the boat for any length of time, I would recommend flushing the head intake hoses with lots of fresh water before you put the boat up - the horizontal hose run is ideal for sea creatures to hang on to and when they die and you come down to the boat after a week or two of warm weather... well, you get the point. I would have gladly given up the small storage space under both vanities so the macerators and output thru hulls could be located close to the appliances. I had the aft macerator moved from the storage compartment behind the headboard to under the berth anyway. I still think the H410 is one of the most liveable boats with an awful lot of performance - mine is truly a dream to sail and I have all the 'creature comforts'. I hope you and your wife really enjoy your new boat - and keep us posted. Fair winds, /c s/v Twilight, H410
Update
Yesterday I received a call from Hunter in Florida. I spoke with Eddie who was very appologetic and professional. He said that Hunter will do everything they can to correct my situation. He said that he routinely looks at this web site and noticed my information. After a while he tracked me down. If any of you have had any similar problems to what I have described, I recommend that you telephone him to let him know.
Yesterday I received a call from Hunter in Florida. I spoke with Eddie who was very appologetic and professional. He said that Hunter will do everything they can to correct my situation. He said that he routinely looks at this web site and noticed my information. After a while he tracked me down. If any of you have had any similar problems to what I have described, I recommend that you telephone him to let him know.
aft head sink drain
Have a 2000 h410 (#250) which had same problem with the aft sink not draining (at all) when I took delivery last Spring. However, my dealer (Glenn LeMaitre at Long Island Yacht) fixed this immediately by rerouting the hose. I don't quite remember what he did, but it evidently can be fixed easily. Other dealers may be aware of the fix. Have not noticed any bulkheads being other than where they should be, but I'm certainly going to check when I next am on board Breathless. Great boat- enjoy it.
Have a 2000 h410 (#250) which had same problem with the aft sink not draining (at all) when I took delivery last Spring. However, my dealer (Glenn LeMaitre at Long Island Yacht) fixed this immediately by rerouting the hose. I don't quite remember what he did, but it evidently can be fixed easily. Other dealers may be aware of the fix. Have not noticed any bulkheads being other than where they should be, but I'm certainly going to check when I next am on board Breathless. Great boat- enjoy it.
Same Problem/376
I had the same problem with the bulkhead between the nav station and shower separating from the deck on my 376. I contacted Hunter and they told me it was not a structural danger but they gave me a solution. Using the main halyard attached to the boom I winched up on the deck via the traveller as far as I could get it to flex. This created a good sized gap from which I removed all of the old caulk etc... I then injected epoxy to fill the entire space. I recaulked it and haven't had a problem since. At the time I kind of thought Hunter might offer to look it over and fix it but it turned out to be a simple job that only took about an hour.
I had the same problem with the bulkhead between the nav station and shower separating from the deck on my 376. I contacted Hunter and they told me it was not a structural danger but they gave me a solution. Using the main halyard attached to the boom I winched up on the deck via the traveller as far as I could get it to flex. This created a good sized gap from which I removed all of the old caulk etc... I then injected epoxy to fill the entire space. I recaulked it and haven't had a problem since. At the time I kind of thought Hunter might offer to look it over and fix it but it turned out to be a simple job that only took about an hour.
Cause and fix
The cause of the problem has been identified. There is a fitting that runs into the saloon area just ahead of the nav station. It is visible and comes in at an angle and supports the shroud. This is on the port side of the boat. There was separation on only the port and not the starboard side. This stantion was not tightened to the same extent as its starboard counterpart. When we were on a port tack, the force of the 23 knot wind caused the bulkhead just behind the nav station and the shower to separate from its caulked position. The fix is to de-tune the mast and clean out all of the old caulking. The detuning will cause the deck to settle. Then, 5200 will be applied to the area where this bulkhead meets the hull. Then, the stantion will be tighted to the same amount as that on the starboard side. The deck will be pulled down and then six screws will be inserted along the top of the bulkhead where it meets the "ceiling" to augment the 5200 bond. I feel this was an aberation and not indicative of the quality produced by Hunter Marine. The service people of the company that I bought the boat through have worked closely with Alachua, Fl. Everyone has been very forthright in reaching a lasting solution. If any of you have experienced anything remotely similar, then you might refer my experience to your service representatives. John Richard s/v Jack's Place
The cause of the problem has been identified. There is a fitting that runs into the saloon area just ahead of the nav station. It is visible and comes in at an angle and supports the shroud. This is on the port side of the boat. There was separation on only the port and not the starboard side. This stantion was not tightened to the same extent as its starboard counterpart. When we were on a port tack, the force of the 23 knot wind caused the bulkhead just behind the nav station and the shower to separate from its caulked position. The fix is to de-tune the mast and clean out all of the old caulking. The detuning will cause the deck to settle. Then, 5200 will be applied to the area where this bulkhead meets the hull. Then, the stantion will be tighted to the same amount as that on the starboard side. The deck will be pulled down and then six screws will be inserted along the top of the bulkhead where it meets the "ceiling" to augment the 5200 bond. I feel this was an aberation and not indicative of the quality produced by Hunter Marine. The service people of the company that I bought the boat through have worked closely with Alachua, Fl. Everyone has been very forthright in reaching a lasting solution. If any of you have experienced anything remotely similar, then you might refer my experience to your service representatives. John Richard s/v Jack's Place
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