Bottom Paint Advice Needed. Start Fresh?

Jun 6, 2017
9
Catalina 22 Trailer Sailor
Hello,
I have been doing a lot of research and I think I know the answer here but need some reassurance.
I have a 1981 C-22 the PO said it spend "some" time in salt water and then 10 years in a barn before I pulled her away for a new life. I am planning to follow Stingy Sailor and strip her down to the gel coat and go the Interlux 2000 and VC-17. Is it a must to strip or soda blast to the gel coat rather then cutting corners and painting over a sanded bottom?
Thank you,
DayDreamer
 

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jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
24,519
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
It is all about getting to a firm surface to apply the barrier coat. Check with the paint company. They are the experts about how to apply their paint over existing surfaces.
 
Jan 11, 2014
13,994
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Hello,
I have been doing a lot of research and I think I know the answer here but need some reassurance.
I have a 1981 C-22 the PO said it spend "some" time in salt water and then 10 years in a barn before I pulled her away for a new life. I am planning to follow Stingy Sailor and strip her down to the gel coat and go the Interlux 2000 and VC-17. Is it a must to strip or soda blast to the gel coat rather then cutting corners and painting over a sanded bottom?
Thank you,
DayDreamer
Generally, before applying a barrier coat all of the old paint must come off. How it comes off is a matter of choice. Some paints come off easily with sanding, some with paint removers, some with soda blasting. After the old paint is removed, the surface will probably need to be sanded with 80 grit.

There are environmentally safe paint strippers out there. Check Franmar they make a soy based product that is very safe.

As John said, check with Interlux. Their website has lots of good information. Sometimes it is better to look at the Pro side of the site, the information may be bit more detailed.
 
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Jan 1, 2006
7,980
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I know "Trailer sailing" can mean a lot of different things. But if you dry sail the boat why would you go to the trouble of barrier coating it? Barrier coats are meant to prevent water intrusion into the fiberglass. That won't happen in a short time in the water. Even if it did the fiberglass has plenty of time to dry while on the trailer. And, you could argue that the barrier coat would keep incidental water from the bilge IN the fiberglass.
You should remove it all the bottom paint. The paint adhesion is basically mechanical and the barrier coat is chemical. So you would have stronger adhesion of the barrier coat to the paint than the adhesion of the paint to the hull. That's a formula for failure. So pop a few ibuprofens and go for it.
A smooth bottom, not necessarily a barrier protected one, enhances your sailing experience. Sometimes it's just fun to turn the boat into the wind and see how far you can glide. So, whatever route you go it goes back to removing the existing bottom paint which is in bad condition.
 

Gunni

.
Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
Ugh, that keel is a mess, it it iron or composite? Have the hull blasted. Then decide if you want to do the repair, fairing and coatings yourself.
 

SG

.
Feb 11, 2017
1,670
J/Boat J/160 Annapolis
As Dave Condon points out, if you want advise on compatibility, what was on before is a key factor.

As others have noted above, the manufacturer of each paint has it's own understanding and view of what's necessary -- but the "what's there" is a key element in their response.

Generally, I've found that going from an ablative paint to a semi-hard or hard bottom paint requires that you take the old stuff down to a clean barrier coat. Soda blasting is great; but its an art to take down only as much as you need to without damaging the fiberglass gel coat (or worse).

WHAT are all of those bubbles on your keel? Was there ever a blister issue with the hull before?
 
Oct 25, 2015
31
Catalina 22 Cave Run Lake ky
Personal experience
DO NOT EVER APPLY EPOXY OVER A PAINT. I have had to remove coatings that failed after they were applied over a paint both above and below water and that is . I recommend soda blasting to remove the old paint as it is faster but sanding will do fine. For fiberglass that does not stay in the water for extended periods of time barrier coating is nice. I would strongly recommend barrier coating the complete keel after it has been removed and the pin checked. A properly applied barrier coat will not only make for a good base it will make later repairs and sanding easier.
 

splax

.
Nov 12, 2012
694
Hunter 34 Portsmouth
If you are not going to leave the boat in the water, the barrier coat is of questionable value. The photos indicate there has been saltwater intrusion on what appears to be an iron keel. Sandblasting will take that down. Soda blasting won't.
I recommend using an orbital sander with 80 grit on the hull to take it to the gel coat or barrier coat, if previously applied, before painting. It appears to already be there in places. Use a good mask or respirator. Do not rush. If you burn through the gel coat you need to apply the epoxy barrier coat. If you believe the previously applied paint is in good condition you can get away with a deep scuffing of the paint layer before recoating, in case you were to apply two coats of bottom paint. If you are not leaving the boat in the water a hard anti-foulant is the best choice if you are going to use anti-foulant at all.
 
Jun 9, 2008
1,850
- -- -Bayfield
If you have a blister problem, and your boat has some value, then you can consider the expense of eliminating the blisters by sand blasting or the other methods of gel coat removal and then you must let the hull dry before you apply epoxy. You don't want to apply epoxy over a wet hull - that is a waste of money. If you are just wanting to protect your hull from blistering, then you must remove any existing antifouling paint before applying the 2000. VC17 is a single season paint with a biocide of cuprous oxide. It is excellent if you apply it at the beginning of the season and leave the boat in. But, like any cuprous (copper) oxide coating, if you pull the boat and let the hull dry, then a chemical reaction takes place and renders the antifouling properties useless. Therefore, if you intend to launch and relaunch your boat several times over a season, VC17 is not a good paint as each time it dries, it won't be so effective. If you are leaving the boat in the water, then I recommend you sand the 2000 down to a very smooth surface, because one of the beauties of VC17 is it's smooth and fast surface (racers love it). It seems futile to apply it over a stippling from a roller. That sort of defeats the paint's purpose. But, do it if you don't care about maximizing the potential of the paints contribution to boat speed. If you are going to launch and retrieve the boat many times during the summer, you'd be better off using an ablative paint that has multi-season characteristics. These paints don't suffer from a chemical reaction rendering it useless when the hull dries. As long as you see paint, even after a period of winter storage, you can assume that the paint will work. Copper paints work by the biocide sluffing away from the paint surface, leaving the paint behind. With VC17, you don't need to worry about paint build up, but with most other copper/single season paints, the paint will continue to build up so that at some point you have to sand it down or smooth. With multi-season paints, the paint and the toxicants sluff away at the same rate. The biocide is sort of like a cold pill that keeps supplying protection over a period of time. As long as you see paint, you know it is working for you. Maybe a bar of soap is a better example. It keeps cleaning as the bar gets smaller until it is gone. When the multi-season paint is gone, then you have to repaint. Therefore, with a single season paint, you could be looking at paint on the hull, but if it is an older application, there might not be any toxicant left.
 
Jan 11, 2014
13,994
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
VC17 is a single season paint with a biocide of cuprous oxide. It is excellent if you apply it at the beginning of the season and leave the boat in. But, like any cuprous (copper) oxide coating, if you pull the boat and let the hull dry, then a chemical reaction takes place and renders the antifouling properties useless.
The main biocide in VC 17 is powdered copper. For a while they added another biocide to reduce slime buildup. When applied the paint dries almost immediately, no change in chemistry occurs. The solvents in the paint flash off leaving a very thin coating of a teflon like material with powdered copper embedded in it. The paint works by 1) slowing slime build up with the biocide, 2) preventing algae and grass from firmly attaching to the hull due to the slick coating, and 3) the copper killing off zebra mussels and other freshwater critters that might attach to the hull.

Therefore, if you intend to launch and relaunch your boat several times over a season, VC17 is not a good paint as each time it dries, it won't be so effective.
Lots of folks only bottom paint with VC 17 every couple of years, or only touch up the leading edge of the keel and rudder and along the waterline with no noticeable change in the paint's effectiveness.

Copper paints work by the biocide sluffing away from the paint surface, leaving the paint behind. With VC17, you don't need to worry about paint build up, but with most other copper/single season paints, the paint will continue to build up so that at some point you have to sand it down or smooth.
It is accurate that VC 17 doesn't build up the way some high solids antifouling paint does, but it does build up. When VC17 is applied over itself, the solvents in the new paint dissolve the old paint, the new copper is then incorporated into the old copper and the solvent flashes off. In high wear areas, such as the leading edges of the keel and rudder and bow the action of the water flowing past these areas will wear the paint away. Also if the hull is scrubbed during the season, some of the copper will be lost.

In low wear areas, such as behind the keel, the copper will build up to be quite thick and it begins to form a solid copper coating that can be difficult to remove.

It would be worth some time to read the materials on the Interlux website about VC 17 and other paint options. Check out both the consumer and pro sides of the site.
 
Jun 6, 2017
9
Catalina 22 Trailer Sailor
I been dragging my feet on getting the bottom painted. Thanks to the garbage man chipping a piece of the gel coat and insurance, I got a check for 700 and will be using that to get the bottom done. To answer some of the questions
1. She will be in Salt water for the sailing season and back home to sit covered in my driveway
2. I have no clue what was on it prior
2. The keel is cast and is rusted and pitted and the PO just rattle canned it before I picked her up last year
3. The keel cable and mount on the keel itself looks surprisingly good in my opinion
4. From what I have seen on boats with blistering mine seems to have an cracked eggshell look and I have not noticed any pits or blisters.

I contacted a Soda guy here in my town and am looking at around $1000 to just blast it. I can justify that so I will be using a random orbital sander to take it down and get rid of all the flaking.
How much paint is needed?
What are some other options for paint rather then Interlux ?
 
Jan 11, 2014
13,994
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I contacted a Soda guy here in my town and am looking at around $1000 to just blast it. I can justify that so I will be using a random orbital sander to take it down and get rid of all the flaking.
How much paint is needed?
What are some other options for paint rather then Interlux ?
If you are going to sand the bottom, be sure to use a good dust collection system. The stuff that is coming off the bottom is really toxic. Here's what I used when I stripped the bottom on my boat: http://www.sv-secondstar.net/stuff-we-like/14-dust-deputy

Paint coverage is about 300-400 square feet per gallon. Your C22 has about 22'x8' or just under 200 square feet. Marine paint, like house paint, is cheaper by the gallon, 2 quarts of whatever will cost nearly as much as a gallon, so you might as well buy a gallon so you don't run out and have some extra for next year.

A few years ago I switched to Blue Water Marine Shelter Island paint. It is a copper free paint that was highly rated by Practical Sailor for both fresh and salt water. I'm in freshwater now, but plan to move to salt water in the near future. Blue Water paint is made by a company in NJ that produces a limited selection of paints under their name and lots of paint for store brands. What you get is decent quality paint without paying for all the marketing at Interlux, Pettit and other popular brands.

2. The keel is cast and is rusted and pitted and the PO just rattle canned it before I picked her up last year
You have 2 choices here. The first is to just clean it up, slap some bottom paint on it and go sailing. The other involves taking the CB down to bright metal, prime with an appropriate primer, fair it, and then prime again and bottom paint it. I'm sure the folks who own C22s and race them can give you more advice and guidance. To me the big project looks like a good one for the next off season. :) Spend more time sailing this year and do the big labor intensive projects in the off season.
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,959
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Great recommendation Dave.
There are environmentally safe paint strippers out there. Check Franmar they make a soy based product that is very safe.[/QUOTE]

I call bullshit on Franmar (not on you--you simply believed what they told you). It is 50-55% n-methylpyrilidone (NMP), which is sufficiently hazardous that the EPA is considering banning it from consumer products.

https://www.epa.gov/assessing-and-m...-tsca/risk-management-n-methylpyrrolidone-nmp

What is most disappointing is their "soy" and "environmental" pitch, which is misleading at based, and dishonest by any reasonable standard. They should just be honest and call it "NMP-based stripper." I could respect that.
 
Jan 11, 2014
13,994
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
There are environmentally safe paint strippers out there. Check Franmar they make a soy based product that is very safe.

I call bullshit on Franmar (not on you--you simply believed what they told you). It is 50-55% n-methylpyrilidone (NMP), which is sufficiently hazardous that the EPA is considering banning it from consumer products.

https://www.epa.gov/assessing-and-m...-tsca/risk-management-n-methylpyrrolidone-nmp

What is most disappointing is their "soy" and "environmental" pitch, which is misleading at based, and dishonest by any reasonable standard. They should just be honest and call it "NMP-based stripper." I could respect that.
@thinwater Thanks for the heads up. It is not just Franmar that I believed. From a publication that is near and dear to our hearts (PS Advisor August 2012):

SoyStrip (www.franmar.com) is a mildly aggressive, soybean-based stripper that has done well in our past tests of bottom paint strippers (PS, November 2006) and in more recent exterior-wood-stripping projects. Soy Strip uses a powerful organic solvent that has a comparatively low toxicity.
Perhaps a clarification from the publishers is in order.
 
Jan 11, 2014
13,994
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Dave, I like the idea of cleaning up the hull and slapping on some of the Blue Water Marine Shelter Island paint you recommend. Can I get away with sanding and applying the shelter island paint or do I still need to prime ? If so what primer
As always, check the manufacturer's website. My guess is that if the underlying paint is well adhered, then no primer is necessary. If you go down to gelcoat, then perhaps.
 

Gunni

.
Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
Unless you want to spend a good bit of your sailing season doing ugly bottom work put a soft ablative paint that is well rated for adhesion to whatever and go sailing. Pettit Hydrocoat is one, there are others. At the end of the season, having done your homework, do the job right. Clean, rust stabilize and prime the iron keel and centerboard. Sand the hull down to the gel coat or existing epoxy primer (if any). Let the hull dry and apply a 10 mic epoxy barrier coat in the spring, followed by a hot coated bottom paint. Interlux has a wealth of info on their web site. This forum does also. Take the lazy slacker course and you will waste your time do it right the first time, but for now just put a soft paint on it that sands off easily and go sailing.
 
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