I am looking to refit a 1999 340 for a furling main. My spouse has decided flaking the main and wrestling with a sail cover it too much work. I am inclined to go with the ProFurl in boom system, since I can have battens and improved light air sailing over the mast systems. The added rigid vang and losing the topping lift is another plus. We sail in the SF Bay area so the extra reefing points won't hurt either. Has anyone had experience with the in-boom system on a Hunter or similar boat?
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Subjective Answer
Used in mast furling on a charter and found it easy to use. Friend has one on his 320 and loves it. His unit has a rigid vang. Have another friend with an older mast roller system that doesn't use it at all because of the difficulty of working it. In mast would put a little more weight aloft. Whatever you decide, it would be interesting to have you provide an analysis for the rest of us after you have sailed it.
Used in mast furling on a charter and found it easy to use. Friend has one on his 320 and loves it. His unit has a rigid vang. Have another friend with an older mast roller system that doesn't use it at all because of the difficulty of working it. In mast would put a little more weight aloft. Whatever you decide, it would be interesting to have you provide an analysis for the rest of us after you have sailed it.
Who makes the boom system?
I agree with your wife. Flaking the big main and wrestling with the sail cover is a sure pain. The guy in the slip next to me has a new Beneteau 40CC with in-mast furling. It sure looks terrific, but the boom seems like a more sensible option for a retrofit. Who makes the boom furling system? Would you be able to use your current mail sail or would you have to have another sail made? Wynn Ferrel S/V Tranquility
I agree with your wife. Flaking the big main and wrestling with the sail cover is a sure pain. The guy in the slip next to me has a new Beneteau 40CC with in-mast furling. It sure looks terrific, but the boom seems like a more sensible option for a retrofit. Who makes the boom furling system? Would you be able to use your current mail sail or would you have to have another sail made? Wynn Ferrel S/V Tranquility
ProFurl In-Boom
ProFurl is the Mfg. A local guy told me he had seen on a done one a 42ft boat and they only had to do some modifications to the existing sail. I'm expecting the hardware to come in under 9k.... no install price yet, but told it should be about one day's labor. If you want more info ... http://www.sailnet.com/profurl/
ProFurl is the Mfg. A local guy told me he had seen on a done one a 42ft boat and they only had to do some modifications to the existing sail. I'm expecting the hardware to come in under 9k.... no install price yet, but told it should be about one day's labor. If you want more info ... http://www.sailnet.com/profurl/
This is dangerous
Any main furling system is inherently unreliable and dangerous, particularly in an area like SF bay. When the thing jams, and it WILL do that, you will be in serious trouble if you really do need to reef. Not to mention the cost and weight of the damn thing. Suggest that you have a talk with your spouse and explain this. MC
Any main furling system is inherently unreliable and dangerous, particularly in an area like SF bay. When the thing jams, and it WILL do that, you will be in serious trouble if you really do need to reef. Not to mention the cost and weight of the damn thing. Suggest that you have a talk with your spouse and explain this. MC
Boom furling less dangerous than genoa furling....
I agree with Michael that all furling systems are likely to jam one day and, thus, can leave you with a lot of sail out under the wrong conditions. Imagine, a big thunderstorm and/or squall line approaching fast and the darn main or genoa jamming right then and there! On the Chesapeake we have had conditions go from heaven to hell in ten minutes flat. On the Pacific near mountainous islands we have been williwawed by 40 knot winds without a cloud in the sky and less than one minute warning...... However, I don't rank boom furling systems up there with in-mast mainsail furling, or even forestay genoa furling systems, with regard to risk. After all you can still always drop the main the conventional way if it jams in the boom, which is not true for most vertical (in-mast as well as jibstay) furling systems. Flying Dutchman
I agree with Michael that all furling systems are likely to jam one day and, thus, can leave you with a lot of sail out under the wrong conditions. Imagine, a big thunderstorm and/or squall line approaching fast and the darn main or genoa jamming right then and there! On the Chesapeake we have had conditions go from heaven to hell in ten minutes flat. On the Pacific near mountainous islands we have been williwawed by 40 knot winds without a cloud in the sky and less than one minute warning...... However, I don't rank boom furling systems up there with in-mast mainsail furling, or even forestay genoa furling systems, with regard to risk. After all you can still always drop the main the conventional way if it jams in the boom, which is not true for most vertical (in-mast as well as jibstay) furling systems. Flying Dutchman
Leisure Furl
We fitted a new Hunter Passage 450 with the Leisure Furl system after much research. We found this system (New Zeland) to be superior to Pro Furl in workmanship and finish and have sailed it now for almost 2 years with excellent results. You can even bring the sail down going downwind if you pay attention. You can contact Quantum Sails in Annapolis for more information. They are in all the sail magazines.
We fitted a new Hunter Passage 450 with the Leisure Furl system after much research. We found this system (New Zeland) to be superior to Pro Furl in workmanship and finish and have sailed it now for almost 2 years with excellent results. You can even bring the sail down going downwind if you pay attention. You can contact Quantum Sails in Annapolis for more information. They are in all the sail magazines.
Not Sold on Furling In-Mast Mains
Besides the potential mechanical problems and weight aloft with in-mast furlers mentioned earlier, what I've seen as a problem is luffing of the leach on a number of these systems. Once this happens the main is either worthless or a very expensive repair. Also there is the lost sail area but probably not a problem in the Bay Area. Another option, if you don't have it already, is the Dutchman system. While it doesn't automatically flake it does get everything stacked up so all one has to do is arrange the folds and put the sail ties on. This would keep the sail on the boom, retain the roach and simple slab reefing. Still another option, why not try giving your spouse the helm and you flaking the main and putting on the sailcover? This is what we do and my wife likes it! I've also taught my wife how to take the helm and tack the boat so I run the jib sheets - she likes that too. In return, I get a wife that more or less enjoys sailing (and doesn't feel like she has to come along because she's married to me).
Besides the potential mechanical problems and weight aloft with in-mast furlers mentioned earlier, what I've seen as a problem is luffing of the leach on a number of these systems. Once this happens the main is either worthless or a very expensive repair. Also there is the lost sail area but probably not a problem in the Bay Area. Another option, if you don't have it already, is the Dutchman system. While it doesn't automatically flake it does get everything stacked up so all one has to do is arrange the folds and put the sail ties on. This would keep the sail on the boom, retain the roach and simple slab reefing. Still another option, why not try giving your spouse the helm and you flaking the main and putting on the sailcover? This is what we do and my wife likes it! I've also taught my wife how to take the helm and tack the boat so I run the jib sheets - she likes that too. In return, I get a wife that more or less enjoys sailing (and doesn't feel like she has to come along because she's married to me).
Sail handling
Thanks for all the great input. Regarding having the wife doing sail handling…. as we figure we will mostly be just sailing by ourselves, she wants to learn all the systems, and maybe in the long run be able to single hand it herself. She will be taking classes (got it bundled with the boat sale) I'm not going to ruin a 20yr marriage by trying to teach her the basics myself.. This boat is an experiment to see if "WE" like cruising. I am trying to make this as easy/comfortable for her as possible for the first year or two. Then I can spring the Tayana 55 (or whatever) on her. FYI... I have an AutoHelm and when the sail hangs on the lazy-jacks or whatever I can go forward and give her a hand, or vice-versa.
Thanks for all the great input. Regarding having the wife doing sail handling…. as we figure we will mostly be just sailing by ourselves, she wants to learn all the systems, and maybe in the long run be able to single hand it herself. She will be taking classes (got it bundled with the boat sale) I'm not going to ruin a 20yr marriage by trying to teach her the basics myself.. This boat is an experiment to see if "WE" like cruising. I am trying to make this as easy/comfortable for her as possible for the first year or two. Then I can spring the Tayana 55 (or whatever) on her. FYI... I have an AutoHelm and when the sail hangs on the lazy-jacks or whatever I can go forward and give her a hand, or vice-versa.
jamming concerns
i'm not sure the concern about in-mast furling systems jamming is all that warranted. if the furling mechanism fails the mainsail can still be dropped just like a conventional main. i lost a gear on my furling drum offshore a few months back--a truly freak accident--while my main was furled approximately 80%. no sweat. i turned upwind, let the main unfurl all the way and dropped it to the deck. only problem i had was that i didn't have any sail ties onboard, since i'd never before had the need for them. we motored into Santa Barbara and had the thing jury-rigged by dinner time. used fender whips. called gred at hunter the next morning, who called seldon, and a whole new furling mechanism was waiting for me when i got into Marina del Rey. slick.
i'm not sure the concern about in-mast furling systems jamming is all that warranted. if the furling mechanism fails the mainsail can still be dropped just like a conventional main. i lost a gear on my furling drum offshore a few months back--a truly freak accident--while my main was furled approximately 80%. no sweat. i turned upwind, let the main unfurl all the way and dropped it to the deck. only problem i had was that i didn't have any sail ties onboard, since i'd never before had the need for them. we motored into Santa Barbara and had the thing jury-rigged by dinner time. used fender whips. called gred at hunter the next morning, who called seldon, and a whole new furling mechanism was waiting for me when i got into Marina del Rey. slick.
John yours is the perfect example
of why in mast furling is a bad idea. Sure the time it happened to you it was no big deal, but the fact you just illustrated is they do jam and the next time it happens to whomever they may not be in a situation that affords the luxury of unrolling the sail first before dropping. What if you were in 40 knots with the main furled 60%? What if the wind increased to 60 knots. Would you still be happy about unfurling the sail to 100% before dropping? Could happen right? You've proved that it does. I'll pass on that thanks. There are better solutions.
of why in mast furling is a bad idea. Sure the time it happened to you it was no big deal, but the fact you just illustrated is they do jam and the next time it happens to whomever they may not be in a situation that affords the luxury of unrolling the sail first before dropping. What if you were in 40 knots with the main furled 60%? What if the wind increased to 60 knots. Would you still be happy about unfurling the sail to 100% before dropping? Could happen right? You've proved that it does. I'll pass on that thanks. There are better solutions.
My 2 cents
Part of the joy of sailing is doing just that...sailing. There has been numerous times when both me and the wife have said "let's not put up the main, it's too much trouble." The bigger boats have very large mains, and not only are they difficult to hoist, but also to wressle down! As another post mentioned..the furling main is dangerous, well it's also dangerous going forward in a big blow with rough seas yanking down the main! My 460 has the full batten main and it is REALLY big and difficult to get down. I'm switching my mast for the furling one at the end of this season. I know I'm losing some square footage but I'm not a racer. I'd rather be sailing with less sail area than not sailing because it's too much trouble to put up and take down the full batten main. Mark Johnson S/V Anthem
Part of the joy of sailing is doing just that...sailing. There has been numerous times when both me and the wife have said "let's not put up the main, it's too much trouble." The bigger boats have very large mains, and not only are they difficult to hoist, but also to wressle down! As another post mentioned..the furling main is dangerous, well it's also dangerous going forward in a big blow with rough seas yanking down the main! My 460 has the full batten main and it is REALLY big and difficult to get down. I'm switching my mast for the furling one at the end of this season. I know I'm losing some square footage but I'm not a racer. I'd rather be sailing with less sail area than not sailing because it's too much trouble to put up and take down the full batten main. Mark Johnson S/V Anthem
Perhaps our pocket books
are getting bigger than the boats for which we can sail comfortably. Perhaps a smaller boat would be a better option. If you've got a 40+' boat and are having difficulty double-handing it is hard to be sympathetic. Not long ago no one would consider cruising with 2 people on a boat that large. I think the roller furling main is a bad solution for a very simple problem. Period. If you are willing to accept the risk and the disadvantages, okey dokey. Whatever floats your boat.
are getting bigger than the boats for which we can sail comfortably. Perhaps a smaller boat would be a better option. If you've got a 40+' boat and are having difficulty double-handing it is hard to be sympathetic. Not long ago no one would consider cruising with 2 people on a boat that large. I think the roller furling main is a bad solution for a very simple problem. Period. If you are willing to accept the risk and the disadvantages, okey dokey. Whatever floats your boat.
Basic Design Problem of Boom
One of the reasons flaking a main on the newer Hunters is so difficult, size of main aside, is that the boom is so high up. On our 1988 H-35 the boom is about chest height when standing on top of the coach roof and in a seaway it is very easy to wrap an arm around it to hold on to while doing flaking and attaching the sail ties. On the new Hunters the boom is so high up one needs a step ladder to work on the sail so for this reason I can understand why one has to go to a furling main. But always keep in mind that when things go wrong they go wrong at the worst time. My jib furler has been relatively trouble free but several years ago we went through a small pass and the winds went from around 10 knots on one side to about 25 on the other side with nasty seas to boot. Conditions were worse than the wind speed would suggest. Because there was a lot of debris in the water and we were near our destination I decided this would be a good time to take the sails down and went to furl the jib - but after a few turns it jammed! I had to go forward and manually wrap the rest of the sail around the furler manually with blue water occassionally comming over the bow. I managed to loose one of my favorite sailing gloves overboad. Another time, near the end of our trip around Vancouver Island the jib halyard snagged on the top of the furler and jammed and we had to finish the trip without the jib but fortunately it was near the end of the trip. At the yard last spring a new boat was being commissioned (Hylas 50 something, first boat for this guy, not a live-aboard, he writes computer programs) and it had a furling main. The furler had a motor about half way up the mast and there were heavy conductors going to the motor - not marine grade. To save money they used un-tinned conductors. I don't remember the brand but it was made in Sweeden. If one gets electric furling, to avoid problems, I'd recommend only using marine grade conductors.
One of the reasons flaking a main on the newer Hunters is so difficult, size of main aside, is that the boom is so high up. On our 1988 H-35 the boom is about chest height when standing on top of the coach roof and in a seaway it is very easy to wrap an arm around it to hold on to while doing flaking and attaching the sail ties. On the new Hunters the boom is so high up one needs a step ladder to work on the sail so for this reason I can understand why one has to go to a furling main. But always keep in mind that when things go wrong they go wrong at the worst time. My jib furler has been relatively trouble free but several years ago we went through a small pass and the winds went from around 10 knots on one side to about 25 on the other side with nasty seas to boot. Conditions were worse than the wind speed would suggest. Because there was a lot of debris in the water and we were near our destination I decided this would be a good time to take the sails down and went to furl the jib - but after a few turns it jammed! I had to go forward and manually wrap the rest of the sail around the furler manually with blue water occassionally comming over the bow. I managed to loose one of my favorite sailing gloves overboad. Another time, near the end of our trip around Vancouver Island the jib halyard snagged on the top of the furler and jammed and we had to finish the trip without the jib but fortunately it was near the end of the trip. At the yard last spring a new boat was being commissioned (Hylas 50 something, first boat for this guy, not a live-aboard, he writes computer programs) and it had a furling main. The furler had a motor about half way up the mast and there were heavy conductors going to the motor - not marine grade. To save money they used un-tinned conductors. I don't remember the brand but it was made in Sweeden. If one gets electric furling, to avoid problems, I'd recommend only using marine grade conductors.
ah, but....
...I would be remiss were I not to point out that I have no trouble doublehanding my 40+' sloop, thanks to the furling main. justin's point is well taken, however, and not too many years ago rigs had to be split (usually either as a ketch or a cutter) on boats larger than 12 meters if they were to be managable by a smaller crew. when i was in my 30s i used to campaign a 37-foot sloop in offshore races, and there was no way my 5'3" wife and i could manage that boat alone. we were crew dependant. period. however, in the past year the two of us, now both in our forties, put thousands of sailing miles on our 410 without needing to rely on winch monkeys or foredeck apes. just the two of us. it's heaven. we can only do this because of a new technology, the furling main. (not to mention a few slightly older technologies, like two-speed self-tailing winches. but i digress.) the choice for me was not between big boat/small boat, but rather between sloop rig or split rig. does my furling mast add windage and weight aloft? you bet, but not anything along the lines of adding a mizzen mast or staysail rigging. is it possible that furling may become difficult if the system breaks down? perhaps; however, i should point out that in over 100 days of sailing, only once have we had to leave the cockpit in order to furl OR STRIKE the main. i truly feel that it is a safer system, just as it is more safe to go to sea in a larger boat. they don't call them "small craft advisories" for nothing.
...I would be remiss were I not to point out that I have no trouble doublehanding my 40+' sloop, thanks to the furling main. justin's point is well taken, however, and not too many years ago rigs had to be split (usually either as a ketch or a cutter) on boats larger than 12 meters if they were to be managable by a smaller crew. when i was in my 30s i used to campaign a 37-foot sloop in offshore races, and there was no way my 5'3" wife and i could manage that boat alone. we were crew dependant. period. however, in the past year the two of us, now both in our forties, put thousands of sailing miles on our 410 without needing to rely on winch monkeys or foredeck apes. just the two of us. it's heaven. we can only do this because of a new technology, the furling main. (not to mention a few slightly older technologies, like two-speed self-tailing winches. but i digress.) the choice for me was not between big boat/small boat, but rather between sloop rig or split rig. does my furling mast add windage and weight aloft? you bet, but not anything along the lines of adding a mizzen mast or staysail rigging. is it possible that furling may become difficult if the system breaks down? perhaps; however, i should point out that in over 100 days of sailing, only once have we had to leave the cockpit in order to furl OR STRIKE the main. i truly feel that it is a safer system, just as it is more safe to go to sea in a larger boat. they don't call them "small craft advisories" for nothing.
A better idea..
I agree that getting the main up on a big bost is a pain, and furling it properly when taking it down is also a pain. My solution is: 1. A dutchman system. 2. An electric halyard winch. The cost and weight of these 2 items does not even begin to approach that of a mast or boom furling system, and is definitely less dangerous. Besides, you can use the electric winch for other stuff as well with a bit of creative cross sheeting and a few snatch blocks. MC
I agree that getting the main up on a big bost is a pain, and furling it properly when taking it down is also a pain. My solution is: 1. A dutchman system. 2. An electric halyard winch. The cost and weight of these 2 items does not even begin to approach that of a mast or boom furling system, and is definitely less dangerous. Besides, you can use the electric winch for other stuff as well with a bit of creative cross sheeting and a few snatch blocks. MC
Works for us
Debbie and I have over 4000 nm on Yaga in 2 years of service with a dutchman flaking system and an electric halyard winch. Mike is right, the cost and weight of these 2 items does not even begin to approach that of a mast or boom furling system. AND it also may be 'less' dangerous but it is STILL dangerous on any boat to have too much mainsail up in high winds. We do like our system a lot. It has been trouble free but your halyard sheeves must be in good shape and the halyard running freely. The main has to come down without having to pull it down. Case in point: A recent thunderstorm popped up on Galveston Bay and by the time we rolled up the 155, a WHITE squall line was approaching so fast I only had minutes to get that big main down. I let the halyard go as I headed to the boom (I always keep 2 sail ties in my pockets when day sailing) and the sail was lying on the boom in near perfect folds. I got the ties on as 50 to 60 kt winds blasted Yaga as Debbie turned into them. Under power at 2300 RPM we could only do 1 knot! A Catalina 380 'sailed' by with flogging jib and its sheets flying out in a huge knot and her fully raised main flogging as the boom kept hitting the water! Seas went from < 1 foot to over 4 foot chop in 5 minutes of pure hell and then it was over just as quick. Unreal is the best way to describe it. Be sure to practice hand signals with your crew because in conditions like that you can't hear even yourself yelling in the wind. Yes....we yelled alot but so did those guys on the Catalina.
Debbie and I have over 4000 nm on Yaga in 2 years of service with a dutchman flaking system and an electric halyard winch. Mike is right, the cost and weight of these 2 items does not even begin to approach that of a mast or boom furling system. AND it also may be 'less' dangerous but it is STILL dangerous on any boat to have too much mainsail up in high winds. We do like our system a lot. It has been trouble free but your halyard sheeves must be in good shape and the halyard running freely. The main has to come down without having to pull it down. Case in point: A recent thunderstorm popped up on Galveston Bay and by the time we rolled up the 155, a WHITE squall line was approaching so fast I only had minutes to get that big main down. I let the halyard go as I headed to the boom (I always keep 2 sail ties in my pockets when day sailing) and the sail was lying on the boom in near perfect folds. I got the ties on as 50 to 60 kt winds blasted Yaga as Debbie turned into them. Under power at 2300 RPM we could only do 1 knot! A Catalina 380 'sailed' by with flogging jib and its sheets flying out in a huge knot and her fully raised main flogging as the boom kept hitting the water! Seas went from < 1 foot to over 4 foot chop in 5 minutes of pure hell and then it was over just as quick. Unreal is the best way to describe it. Be sure to practice hand signals with your crew because in conditions like that you can't hear even yourself yelling in the wind. Yes....we yelled alot but so did those guys on the Catalina.
Battcar system may be better
I have a 450 with the full batten main. Raising and lowering it has always been difficult with lots of binding. The problem is compounded by having to install the sail cover over the dodger/bimini we had made. The entire problem has been solved with a Harken Battcar system and a UK Lazy Cradle (same thing as the Doyle StackPack). Now the main goes straight up without a hitch, and drops like a stone straight into the cover when the halyard is released. Not cheap, but probably cheaper than a whole new furling system, and a lot safer.
I have a 450 with the full batten main. Raising and lowering it has always been difficult with lots of binding. The problem is compounded by having to install the sail cover over the dodger/bimini we had made. The entire problem has been solved with a Harken Battcar system and a UK Lazy Cradle (same thing as the Doyle StackPack). Now the main goes straight up without a hitch, and drops like a stone straight into the cover when the halyard is released. Not cheap, but probably cheaper than a whole new furling system, and a lot safer.
Which Roller system Revett?
Hi Revett, Could you pass on the name of the in- boom system you had the trouble with? I spoke with the ProFurl people and they brought up the issue of having the boom at <> 90 degrees from the mast during furling, this is why they bundle in the rigid vang, which when returns to optimum angle when released...Regards Ski
Hi Revett, Could you pass on the name of the in- boom system you had the trouble with? I spoke with the ProFurl people and they brought up the issue of having the boom at <> 90 degrees from the mast during furling, this is why they bundle in the rigid vang, which when returns to optimum angle when released...Regards Ski
It wasn't an in-boom system
Ski: The problems I had were not with an in-boom system, just with the stock full-batten main. I'm not a big fan of in-boom or in-mast systems, however, except for in-shore cruising, because you lose maybe 10-15% of power and there is always the chance of jamming at the wrong time. (Does jamming ever occur at the right time?) If I were going to keep my boat here in the Pacific Northwest, I would probably go with in-mast furling -- like most 450s have -- as the winds are so variable and we are constantly raising and lowering sail, but we are starting a major several-year offshore cruise in January, so I want as much power and simplicity as I can get.
Ski: The problems I had were not with an in-boom system, just with the stock full-batten main. I'm not a big fan of in-boom or in-mast systems, however, except for in-shore cruising, because you lose maybe 10-15% of power and there is always the chance of jamming at the wrong time. (Does jamming ever occur at the right time?) If I were going to keep my boat here in the Pacific Northwest, I would probably go with in-mast furling -- like most 450s have -- as the winds are so variable and we are constantly raising and lowering sail, but we are starting a major several-year offshore cruise in January, so I want as much power and simplicity as I can get.
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