boat will not sail straight

Oct 19, 2017
7,744
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
This is such an educational thread. It's better than a chapter in a top technical manual on sail trim, because you get to read some back and forth on different points and points of view.
My take, for the purposes of OP's original question, is that a properly tuned mast head rig with a fin keel should be just a little loose. Helm is determined by balance around the center of lateral resistance (CLR) and fin keels are more sensitive to that balance.
Tightening the luff of a sail helps depower that sail so by tightening the backstay of a masthead sloop you end up depowering the jib but not the main. This results in less lift ahead of the CLR while the lift of the main, behind the CLR, remains the same. This increases weather helm. To improve the balance when there is too much weather helm, one would want to depower (reduce lift on) the main while either increasing or holding the power of the jib. That means tightening the main luff with either the halyard or a cunningham or the downhaul and the outhaul. Tighten the vang. Move the traveler out, but tighten the main sheet. These are all things to experiment with to get your best trim for you and your boat.
I disagree with the statement that rake is not for beginners to play with. This is basic rig tuning for a boat owner to learn and understand. It is set when the boat is setup at launch and not typically played with under sail by anyone no matter their experience. There aren't too many boats with dynamically adjustable forestays. If you have played with the trim of your boat and can't get it to sail with the right balance by use of the above mentioned controls, setting the rake to move your balance a little forward or aft may be the answer. There is, however only a few inches to a foot or so of tolerance to play with by this method. Good dynamic sail trim is still called for.

As for the squatting under auxiliary power, throttle back. Once a displacement hull reaches "hull speed", the wake is equal in wave length to the waterline length and your vessel should be level while riding through the water. As you increase power, your increase in speed lengthens the wake even longer and your bow is on top of the bow wake while your stern slides further and further down the stern wake as it gets farther behind. This effectively translates to you trying to chug uphill and that uses an exponential increase in power. The extra speed will hardly be worth the fuel consumption and wear on the engine.
Note, in shallow water, where the displaced water can't move down as well as out to get out of the way of the moving hull, you can also experience a drag on and squatting of the hull as your wake gets steeper than normal. The bottom almost feels like it sucks the boat down. Try it in a kayak. Paddle as fast as you can along a shore. Move in to shallow water, then out to deep water. You can feel the difference.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Jul 27, 2015
47
catalina 30 SF bay
This has been a great response. A great group of people with much knowledge. I thank you all. My mainsail is old but I failed to reef it and I had a small storm jib up that day. DrjudyB I also am at alameda marina in fact this is Brad, My boat is Collette and I was the Catalina 30, next boat down from you (until you moved). I will get in touch with you next visit to the marina. Thanks all.
 
Nov 8, 2007
1,526
Hunter 27_75-84 Sandusky Harbor Marina, Ohio
In addition to depowering sails and reducing sail area (jib less than 100%, and reefing main as needed), you should check the rake of your mast and tune it as needed.

Check rake at your slip by detaching the main halyard and hanging a half gallon milk bottle of water from it. Then measure the distance from the main halyard to the back of the mast.

1.36 inches is 1 degree of rake. 4 degrees is a little over 5 inches. You want your rake between 0 and 4 degrees. (The wind typically blows down about 3-4 degrees because of its interaction with the surface of the water.)
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
Tightening the luff of a sail helps depower that sail so by tightening the backstay of a masthead sloop you end up depowering the jib but not the main.
We need to distinguish between luff tension and forestay sag. Tightening the forestay to reduce sag is distinct and separate from tightening the luff of the headsail with the halyard. Reducing sag in the forestay makes the draft/camber in the middle section of the jib shallower, which reduces lift.

Tightening the luff of the jib without changing the forestay shape may or may not affect the position of the max draft of the sail, depending on the sail material. For a crosscut Dacron main and jib, tightening the halyard will pull the draft forward, because the woven cloth stretches on the bias. For a laminate sail, tightening the luff doesn’t move the draft forward appreciably. For a mainsail with full battens, tightening the luff with a Cunningham will have almost not effect on the position of the maximum draft.

You should never tighten the halyard of a headsail so that it’s carrying more stress than the forestay. The fabric sail will be permanently distorted.

This results in less lift ahead of the CLR while the lift of the main, behind the CLR, remains the same. This increases weather helm.
Heeling is by far the biggest contributor the weather helm. As the center of the sailplan goes further Outboard of the keel, it torques the bow to windward. That’s why the helm gets so heavy when you he’ll past 15 or 20 degrees on a Catalina.

To improve the balance when there is too much weather helm, one would want to depower (reduce lift on) the main while either increasing or holding the power of the jib. That means tightening the main luff with either the halyard or a cunningham or the downhaul and the outhaul. Tighten the vang. Move the traveler out, but tighten the main sheet. These are all things to experiment with to get your best trim for you and your boat.
As I mentioned above, tightening the luff of a sail per se doesn’t reduce lift or power. Pulling the sail flatter by reducing luff curve is what we really want to do. That means reducung forestay sag for a headsail, and bending the mast forwarded for a mainsail.

On a dinghy with a bendy mast and no backstay, you can bend the mast forward in the middle by cranking the Van down hard. That flattens the draft in the middle of the sail, so that the sail produces less lift. Bending a dinghy mast to the extreme also reduces tension on the leech, so the sail can twist off, reducing the angle of attack at the top, so there’s less lift and power in the top of the sail.

But on a heavy, stiff boat like a Catalina 30, you can’t bend the mast with the Vang, you can’t flatten the mansail with the Vang because you cant bend the mast. On a keelboat or yacht, the Vang controls leech tension and leech twist, and that’s all. If you are overpowered, ease the Vang to allow the top section of the mainsail totwist off the wind. This reduces the angle of attack in the top section, so it’s producing less lift.

On a keelboat with a weak Vang compared to the stiffness of the mast, a tight Vang If you tighten the mainsail leech with the Vang, you will increase the angle of attack at the top of the sail, to the point of stalling it, wich creates a great deal of drag without producing lift. That increases heeling, which makes the boat round up. which is precisely the opposite of what you want.

To increase twist in the mainsail, loosen the Vang and ease the mainsheet. Pull the traveler up higher to windward to increase the angle of attack.
 
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Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
Check rake at your slip by detaching the main halyard and hanging a half gallon milk bottle of water from it. Then measure the distance from the main halyard to the back of the mast.

1.36 inches is 1 degree of rake. 4 degrees is a little over 5 inches. You want your rake between 0 and 4 degrees. (The wind typically blows down about 3-4 degrees because of its interaction with the surface of the water.)
There’s something wrong with the trigonometry and math here. The sin of one degree is 0.0175. For a Catalina 30 with a p of 37 and about 12 inches extra mast above the headboard of the mainsail, one degree of rake produces about 8” of offset at the boom, measure by a plumb line hanging from the main halyard.

0.0175 * 38’ x 12” per foot = 7.98 inches

Every boat is slightly different, beut Based on my experience with Catalina 30s, I would start with no rake on the mast for my dock tune and go from there. If the hull floats down in the stern rather than on her lines. I’d add a half or one degree of rake. Then I’d take it out on the water for a the fine tuning.

IIRC, some Hunters and some MacGregor’s need up to 4 degrees of mast rake, but there isn’t an OEM Catalina yacht that needs more than 1 degree of rake.

Judy
 
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May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Brad: Are you out there?? You've received almost 20 answers to your problem. Most of us aren't writing just to hear ourselves think - we want to help. Is any of the stuff of benefit and do you have any additional questions?
 

Ward H

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Nov 7, 2011
3,649
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
Don, see post #22.

Great stuff in this thread! It's a keeper.
 
Jul 27, 2015
47
catalina 30 SF bay
Don I replied this morning. Again many thanks it has been a great help. My wife has also read the posts and I think in the near future I will have authorization from the finance and acquisitions committee (my wife) for new sails. Again thanks to all a great help on both questions. brad
 
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Jul 6, 2013
221
Catalina 30TR, Atomic 4 2480 Milwaukee
There’s something wrong with the trigonometry and math here. The sin of one degree is 0.0175. For a Catalina 30 with a p of 37 and about 12 inches extra mast above the headboard of the mainsail, one degree of rake produces about 8” of offset at the boom, measure by a plumb line hanging from the main halyard.

0.175 * 38’ x 12” per foot = 7.98 inches

Every boat is slightly different, but Based on my experience with Catalina 30s, I would start with no rake on the mast for my dock tune and go from there. If the hull floats down in the stern rather than on her lines. I’d add a half or one degree of rake. Then I’d take it out on the water for a the fine tuning.

Hunters and some MacGregor’s need up to 4 degrees of mast rake, but there isn’t an OEM Catalina yacht that needs more than 1 degree of rake.

Judy
Just for the record, the C30 owner’s manual says that the mast should be straight up and down and no side bend. A 50# push on an upper shroud should deflect the shroud about 1” at shoulder height (I use a Loos gauge, but I’m a geek.).
The lowers should be adjusted under sail on port/starboard tacks to maintain the mast “in-column.”

More advanced sailors may have other ideas, but I think that the OP (Brad) should start with this baseline.
And, of course, follow all the excellent sail-trim advice in this thread.
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,085
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
See guys.. We give out great info.. And it has been great.. The guy gets his wife to read it. Thinks about it and suggests the guy get new sails.

WOW... I wish I could get my wife to read these stories about how bigger boats are good to sail...

Maybe????
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,744
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
We need to distinguish between luff tension and forestay sag. Tightening the forestay to reduce sag is distinct and separate from tightening the luff of the headsail with the halyard.
Awesome! This is exactly my point about the benefits of this forum and, in particular, this thread. No other form of information, short of a classroom, supports the dynamic back and forth to correct misconceptions and provide custom explanation.
Thank you so much Judy. You are my hero.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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