Boat speed and great handling just off a close hauled course but in races we do not do well. We rarely sail to our PHRF. I can not figure out why. We have done everything possible (buying new sails is not an option) from sail tactic classes in Charelston to sailing the sails in every postion possible. Doing exactly what the "experts" say and doing the precise "wrong" things to do. Nothing has gottin us over the "speed hump" we seem stuck on. I have had the same crew for 3 years now and each year our overall speed has increased but we are not doing what It is suppose to be capible of doing. We rarely hit 7 knots even in 20 knots of wind. 15 to 20 knots wind we maintain 6.3 to 6.7 knots (confirmed by GPS and knot meter) with main sail and a 165 jib. 10 to 15 knots of wind av. boat speed 5.5 to 6.1. 10 to 8 knots boat speed in 4.5 range, below 7 knots we stay in the mid 3's low 4's. My question is is this typical for other O'days of this size and what point of sail does your boat seem to do its best on??
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J
Justin - O'day Owners' Web
Jeff - You are getting pretty close at the top end - if you're seeing 7 knots you are actually over your hull speed. With a waterline of 25' 5" you have a theoretical hull speed of 6.8. Yes - I know it increases when you heel the boat, but not by much. I assume you've done some of the following but in order to see top speeds this is the drill. (don't think for a second that I do all these things. I think they're excessive. The guys who really want to win do it though) - 1. The bottom should be absolutely fair. Everything, botton of keel included, must be perfectly smooth. This means wetsanding between coats of bottom paint and cleaning every few weeks. 2. Your rig shouldbe in perfect tune. To sail to your numbers this means backstay adjuster etc. 3. Your rudder should be profiled with a template and again, perfectly fair. 4. In lighter conditions you should be steering with sail trim and crew weight positioning as much as possible so that the rudder remains in line and doesn't generate excessive drag. 5. Absolutely every gram of weight you don't need should be left at the dock. This means minimum amount of water and fuel on board, too. Pump the holding tank. 6. Crew weight should be centered over the CG of the boat - this means crew not activily doing something in the cockpit should be forward. 7. Sails - yep, they really do matter. If yours are bagged maybe you can get them recut instead of replacing them. If not, you can often find reasonable used stuff from Bacon and Associates. Now - None of that will really matter unless you are doing everything else 10/10ths all the time. I would put my energy into tactics and positioning before I worried about those last ergs of speed. If have beaten longer faster boats in a Catalina 25 by spoiling their air, usings rights to push them off the course, etc. I'd start working on that route were I you. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
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mike
Speed
Justin -- hull speed must be more than 6.8 -- my O'Day 27 hull speed (waterline 22.75') is 6.7 & I can get 7.1 out of her in a good blow & even sustain 7.0. An O'day 30 should do better.
Justin -- hull speed must be more than 6.8 -- my O'Day 27 hull speed (waterline 22.75') is 6.7 & I can get 7.1 out of her in a good blow & even sustain 7.0. An O'day 30 should do better.
G
Guest
Boat Speed/ justin
justin, thanks for the info. bottom was just done with all that you mentioned in the past weeks. i think the sails while good for cruising is the real issue here. hearing from others that we are pushing the limits is nice to hear. jeff
justin, thanks for the info. bottom was just done with all that you mentioned in the past weeks. i think the sails while good for cruising is the real issue here. hearing from others that we are pushing the limits is nice to hear. jeff
J
Justin - O'day Owners' Web
Replies to both
First, mike - Mike, the hull speed of a boat with a 22.75' waterline is actually 6.44, so it makes sense that the hull speed of the 30 is 6.8. Remember that the increase is related to the square root of the waterline so it will increase slowly. What you are experiencing in the fact that hull speed isn't a hard limit. With a clean bottom, good sails, and good seamanshup you can exceed it slightly. I regularly sail my boat past hullspeed and maintain it - perfect bottom, new sails. Now, Jeff - Jeff, if your sails are suspect the really could be the answer. I would suggest that the answer to increased sucess racing is in really learning to sail really well tactically. Also, remember it is supposed to be hard to sail to your PHRF and also that PHRF is designed so that the ratings fall just short of actually making the boats equal. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
First, mike - Mike, the hull speed of a boat with a 22.75' waterline is actually 6.44, so it makes sense that the hull speed of the 30 is 6.8. Remember that the increase is related to the square root of the waterline so it will increase slowly. What you are experiencing in the fact that hull speed isn't a hard limit. With a clean bottom, good sails, and good seamanshup you can exceed it slightly. I regularly sail my boat past hullspeed and maintain it - perfect bottom, new sails. Now, Jeff - Jeff, if your sails are suspect the really could be the answer. I would suggest that the answer to increased sucess racing is in really learning to sail really well tactically. Also, remember it is supposed to be hard to sail to your PHRF and also that PHRF is designed so that the ratings fall just short of actually making the boats equal. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
J
james rohr
Racing an O'Day 30,Horse of a diff color.
Jeff. I have a 79 vintage that I have raced extensively on the Chesapeake Bay for 10 years,this boat can be a winner and I have a house full of silver to confirm it. We notoriously have light air <10 knots true most of the summer. There are a few things you have to always keep foremost in your mind about this boat. 1: its a heavy boat and doesn't accelerate out of tacks well. after a tack foot it for about 20sec to get boat speed back up quicker. don't spin it in a tack like a j-24, bring it through the tack a little slower to mimimize speed lose. Minimize your tacks and gibes. Every time you do either you loose a little while your getting it back up to speed. Keep clean air. don't sit on anyones hip. Keep weight out of cockpit as much as possible. this boat tends to be stern heavy. to much weight in stern is very slow. 2: make sure your mast is tuned for an absolutely neutral helm. they designed way to much weather helm into this boat. 3: a smooth bottom is an absolute. I use VC offshore wet sanded to a fineness burnish of 600grit. the bottom is as smooth as the gelcoat. scrub bottom at least twice a month. I use a soft brush on a 6'long pole. takes me about 30min. each time. it helps if you tie a line to the bow cleat then outside and aft to the stern cleats. this gives you something to hang on to while scrubbing. I suspect that you have current to deal with in Charleston Harbor. Stay out of foul current if at all possible. 4; if you don't have a folding prop then get one. a fixed two blade will kill about .5knots of boat speed. 5; if you are using the 100/blade run your sheet between the cap shroud and the lower aft shroud. the sheeting angle is too wide if using this sail and sheets are run on the out side. 6; if using spinnaker don't sail deep angles. sail it hi and hot. sailing low with this heavy boat and you'll get killed. 6;QUIET-QUIET- QUIET- this refers to sailing in light air, no sudden or excessive moving around the boat. this kills boat speed in light air. If you can reasonably do it, PICK YOUR TYPE OF RACE.THIS BOAT DOES WELL IN POINT TO POINT RACES. 15NM OR LONGER. AND OVERNIGHTS WITH STRONG WINDS. I can't stress enough that in 10knots+ keep her on her feet. we've found flatening reef first, then one reef, before changing down to smaller head sail. whatever it takes to keep her on her feet. sometimes this means a lot of sail changes but it pays off in the long run. Now the biggie, SAILS. do you have any laminated head sails? Having at least one,155, that is a deck sweeper is a great plus. you will loose a very high percentage of the drive out of your headsail if its not on the deck at the foot. Check about finding a good used one and have it recut or modified if nesc. and only use it for racing. I have two and they are now ten years old and still fairly competive. one has been recut, but what i call my heavy #1 is still in very good shape. Its tough to go out cruising and resist putting up your fast sail, but if you do, it will last you many years. If I can be of any further help or you have any questions you can e-mail me direct at jamesrohr@msn.com good luck! Capn jim of Que Pasa?
Jeff. I have a 79 vintage that I have raced extensively on the Chesapeake Bay for 10 years,this boat can be a winner and I have a house full of silver to confirm it. We notoriously have light air <10 knots true most of the summer. There are a few things you have to always keep foremost in your mind about this boat. 1: its a heavy boat and doesn't accelerate out of tacks well. after a tack foot it for about 20sec to get boat speed back up quicker. don't spin it in a tack like a j-24, bring it through the tack a little slower to mimimize speed lose. Minimize your tacks and gibes. Every time you do either you loose a little while your getting it back up to speed. Keep clean air. don't sit on anyones hip. Keep weight out of cockpit as much as possible. this boat tends to be stern heavy. to much weight in stern is very slow. 2: make sure your mast is tuned for an absolutely neutral helm. they designed way to much weather helm into this boat. 3: a smooth bottom is an absolute. I use VC offshore wet sanded to a fineness burnish of 600grit. the bottom is as smooth as the gelcoat. scrub bottom at least twice a month. I use a soft brush on a 6'long pole. takes me about 30min. each time. it helps if you tie a line to the bow cleat then outside and aft to the stern cleats. this gives you something to hang on to while scrubbing. I suspect that you have current to deal with in Charleston Harbor. Stay out of foul current if at all possible. 4; if you don't have a folding prop then get one. a fixed two blade will kill about .5knots of boat speed. 5; if you are using the 100/blade run your sheet between the cap shroud and the lower aft shroud. the sheeting angle is too wide if using this sail and sheets are run on the out side. 6; if using spinnaker don't sail deep angles. sail it hi and hot. sailing low with this heavy boat and you'll get killed. 6;QUIET-QUIET- QUIET- this refers to sailing in light air, no sudden or excessive moving around the boat. this kills boat speed in light air. If you can reasonably do it, PICK YOUR TYPE OF RACE.THIS BOAT DOES WELL IN POINT TO POINT RACES. 15NM OR LONGER. AND OVERNIGHTS WITH STRONG WINDS. I can't stress enough that in 10knots+ keep her on her feet. we've found flatening reef first, then one reef, before changing down to smaller head sail. whatever it takes to keep her on her feet. sometimes this means a lot of sail changes but it pays off in the long run. Now the biggie, SAILS. do you have any laminated head sails? Having at least one,155, that is a deck sweeper is a great plus. you will loose a very high percentage of the drive out of your headsail if its not on the deck at the foot. Check about finding a good used one and have it recut or modified if nesc. and only use it for racing. I have two and they are now ten years old and still fairly competive. one has been recut, but what i call my heavy #1 is still in very good shape. Its tough to go out cruising and resist putting up your fast sail, but if you do, it will last you many years. If I can be of any further help or you have any questions you can e-mail me direct at jamesrohr@msn.com good luck! Capn jim of Que Pasa?
J
Jeff
boat speed/ capn jim
Great to hear all the advice. You pointed out some things that we discoverd after the recent race. 1- deck sweeper. We concluded that we had the head sail (a 165) too high and we needed to ease it down. 2-The other boat that was PHRFed almost the same as us left us behind because he did what you said..."sail a straight course with few tacks". We did not assuming that our faster boat speed would make up for the longer course sailed. It did not. It was a very light air day between 4 and 8 knots. Why it was not postponed I have no idea. We sail on the NC / SC state line just north of Myrtle Beach. Winds here differ widley from week to week in the summer. It goes from 4 to 20 knots and flat to 8 ft seas and that is just a mere 1 mile off shore. In the Spring and Fall the winds are pretty much constant but the summer the winds are very much dependent on the air temp. The fastest LOOSE CHANGE has ever sailed in the going on 5 years I have had her is 7.8 knots while surfing down a 10 foot swell in 20 knots of wind with the 165 jib up. I once sailed her single handed at a speed of 7.2 to 7.5 for 2 1/2hours. But that is VERY RARE. On that occasion I was on a beam reach with 20 konts steady wind and 4 ft seas and using the 100% jib. We normaly av. upper 5's low 6's in 10 to 15 range. Thanks for your thoughts and keep them coming. Ithink the big problems are 1- sails, 2- tactical decisions (the fastest boat doesn't always win)and 3-still figuring out backstay and cunningham tension. Thanks again NEXT RACE TWO IN WEEKS we'll see... Jeff
Great to hear all the advice. You pointed out some things that we discoverd after the recent race. 1- deck sweeper. We concluded that we had the head sail (a 165) too high and we needed to ease it down. 2-The other boat that was PHRFed almost the same as us left us behind because he did what you said..."sail a straight course with few tacks". We did not assuming that our faster boat speed would make up for the longer course sailed. It did not. It was a very light air day between 4 and 8 knots. Why it was not postponed I have no idea. We sail on the NC / SC state line just north of Myrtle Beach. Winds here differ widley from week to week in the summer. It goes from 4 to 20 knots and flat to 8 ft seas and that is just a mere 1 mile off shore. In the Spring and Fall the winds are pretty much constant but the summer the winds are very much dependent on the air temp. The fastest LOOSE CHANGE has ever sailed in the going on 5 years I have had her is 7.8 knots while surfing down a 10 foot swell in 20 knots of wind with the 165 jib up. I once sailed her single handed at a speed of 7.2 to 7.5 for 2 1/2hours. But that is VERY RARE. On that occasion I was on a beam reach with 20 konts steady wind and 4 ft seas and using the 100% jib. We normaly av. upper 5's low 6's in 10 to 15 range. Thanks for your thoughts and keep them coming. Ithink the big problems are 1- sails, 2- tactical decisions (the fastest boat doesn't always win)and 3-still figuring out backstay and cunningham tension. Thanks again NEXT RACE TWO IN WEEKS we'll see... Jeff
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