On the 6th of December, Ron asaked about the possibilities of a C-30 making a bluewater voyage. LaDonna replied that a Catalina (of any sort, I guess) was not a bluewater boat. Further, that a C-30 was a nice boat to learn on while you make your decision to get a real bluewater boat. I want to ask a question or two. I've read a bit of the literature on the subject of passage making and continue to wonder what makes a boat an ocean cruising boat. Some say one thing (strength of hull, rigging, bonding of hull and bulkheads, keel length, displacement, etc), some say other things (size, storage, capacities, comfort, etc.) And there are still other opinions easily found. We all know that Catalinas have sailed just about anywhere one can sail. They are seaworthy boats. So how, can we say catagorically, that a Catalina is not a boat fit for ocean cruising? Or that only with prohibitively expensive modifications could it be oceanic and even then it would be too uncomfortable? I may agree with the thinking, but not without some persuasive arguments. Just a few thoughts. Bob Braddy
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Nick
A C-27 is better than . . .
Hi Bob, Here's the way I look at it. The question of a C-27 being a blue water boat or not is mute if you look at the Catalina compared to what people sailed a thousand years ago. Say you went back in time (hey, what's that strange cloud heading our way?") and you sailed up the Nile River and handed the keys to your C-27 to Cleopatra. She would have conquered the world with it. And woman today would be wearing a lot more make-up. All boats have problems, all boats have gear failures, and all boat sink at one time or another. There are several known problems with early C-27 that can be addressed with upgrades. BTW, you're about the only guy on the dock that can still get factory parts for a twenty year old boat. So yes, other boats are faster, more comfortable, and okay, probably safer for the in-experienced, but take care of the problems mentioned above, stay out of the weather, and enjoy this little jewel of a boat. Nick "Julia Bell" '71, C-27
Hi Bob, Here's the way I look at it. The question of a C-27 being a blue water boat or not is mute if you look at the Catalina compared to what people sailed a thousand years ago. Say you went back in time (hey, what's that strange cloud heading our way?") and you sailed up the Nile River and handed the keys to your C-27 to Cleopatra. She would have conquered the world with it. And woman today would be wearing a lot more make-up. All boats have problems, all boats have gear failures, and all boat sink at one time or another. There are several known problems with early C-27 that can be addressed with upgrades. BTW, you're about the only guy on the dock that can still get factory parts for a twenty year old boat. So yes, other boats are faster, more comfortable, and okay, probably safer for the in-experienced, but take care of the problems mentioned above, stay out of the weather, and enjoy this little jewel of a boat. Nick "Julia Bell" '71, C-27
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Brian Stevenson
Bluewater Catalina
I have a Catalina 27 and am very happy with the boat . Perhaps it would be fair to say that Catalina is not designed as a blue water boat ie: I could not imagine my boat surviving a pitchpole or being swamped in open ocean. I think you'd agree that the factors of construction-hull thichness, rigging, deck and cabin re-inforcing are not up to open Ocean storms. I look at my cockpit drains ( 5/8 in diameter) and try to imagine how long it would take to drain. So, the designerof any boat must make decisions that are in effect compromises--true in any design work. Compare the features in a Swan or Hallberg-Rassey and you see the design choices that have been made. Don't forget the cost factor. So if you want to take a Catalina on the open ocean, obviously you can, and some will, but check out all of the modifications and safety features done to the boats. Ask what safety features would be required to obtain insurance. For my money, Catalinas are great boats, but any boat should be operated within the design criteria.
I have a Catalina 27 and am very happy with the boat . Perhaps it would be fair to say that Catalina is not designed as a blue water boat ie: I could not imagine my boat surviving a pitchpole or being swamped in open ocean. I think you'd agree that the factors of construction-hull thichness, rigging, deck and cabin re-inforcing are not up to open Ocean storms. I look at my cockpit drains ( 5/8 in diameter) and try to imagine how long it would take to drain. So, the designerof any boat must make decisions that are in effect compromises--true in any design work. Compare the features in a Swan or Hallberg-Rassey and you see the design choices that have been made. Don't forget the cost factor. So if you want to take a Catalina on the open ocean, obviously you can, and some will, but check out all of the modifications and safety features done to the boats. Ask what safety features would be required to obtain insurance. For my money, Catalinas are great boats, but any boat should be operated within the design criteria.
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LaDonna Bubak - CatalinaOwners
Bluewater fitness
I don't believe I said Catalinas weren't fit for ocean cruising. I believe I said they were not *designed* for it. I believe I also mentioned that several have done successfully. What makes a bluewater boat? Structural integrity. Period. Take a C27, for example. The bulkheads aren't tabbed in, they just float around. This allow the hull to flex, putting stress in all sorts of places, including the hull to deck joint. Not a place you want to open up in the middle of the Atlantic. The layup of the hull is thin enough that you can quite easily see light shining through - how well will that hold up against a big log, not to mention a whale or container. I could keep going but it seems like a waste of space since I'm not sure what you're really questioning. Call Catalina - they'll tell you flat out that their boats are designed and built for coastal cruising. They're beamy, flat bottomed, fin keeled, lightly rigged, and cheaply built coastal cruisers. I met Frank Butler in September and he even talked about how he always searches out how to make the cheapest, yet most comfy, boat possible. Perfect for weekend coastal cruisers. Not necessarily something to look for in a circumnavigator! LaDonna
I don't believe I said Catalinas weren't fit for ocean cruising. I believe I said they were not *designed* for it. I believe I also mentioned that several have done successfully. What makes a bluewater boat? Structural integrity. Period. Take a C27, for example. The bulkheads aren't tabbed in, they just float around. This allow the hull to flex, putting stress in all sorts of places, including the hull to deck joint. Not a place you want to open up in the middle of the Atlantic. The layup of the hull is thin enough that you can quite easily see light shining through - how well will that hold up against a big log, not to mention a whale or container. I could keep going but it seems like a waste of space since I'm not sure what you're really questioning. Call Catalina - they'll tell you flat out that their boats are designed and built for coastal cruising. They're beamy, flat bottomed, fin keeled, lightly rigged, and cheaply built coastal cruisers. I met Frank Butler in September and he even talked about how he always searches out how to make the cheapest, yet most comfy, boat possible. Perfect for weekend coastal cruisers. Not necessarily something to look for in a circumnavigator! LaDonna
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Rob
Used to have the same questions, Bob
But two things (aside from this website) changed my mind. I've now been stuck in several storms on our (relatively) small lake. Winds blew around 40-50 mph. I wouldn't care to be out in winds much higher than that on my boat without serious upgrades. Yet routinely, the ocean will blow much harder than that for days, and you won't be able to run from it for days on end. Catalinas don't come out of the factory ready or intended to handle that kind of weather year after year. I wouldn't worry about running around the Keys on one, or even the Bahamas, but for long offshore passages I would want heavier equipment. Secondly, if you look at the overall design, or better yet, designer's intent, for a blue/green water boat, you'll see all kinds of cool things like real sea births, much more overall storage, redundant systems, improved galleys, oversized rigging/hardware, full length keels, stuff like that which, when combined, make for a passage maker. I know that more than one person has sailed a c-27 around the world - hell, some guys in the Virgin Islands are liveaboards on 15 foot boats - but I wouldn't be one of them. Take Care - Rob
But two things (aside from this website) changed my mind. I've now been stuck in several storms on our (relatively) small lake. Winds blew around 40-50 mph. I wouldn't care to be out in winds much higher than that on my boat without serious upgrades. Yet routinely, the ocean will blow much harder than that for days, and you won't be able to run from it for days on end. Catalinas don't come out of the factory ready or intended to handle that kind of weather year after year. I wouldn't worry about running around the Keys on one, or even the Bahamas, but for long offshore passages I would want heavier equipment. Secondly, if you look at the overall design, or better yet, designer's intent, for a blue/green water boat, you'll see all kinds of cool things like real sea births, much more overall storage, redundant systems, improved galleys, oversized rigging/hardware, full length keels, stuff like that which, when combined, make for a passage maker. I know that more than one person has sailed a c-27 around the world - hell, some guys in the Virgin Islands are liveaboards on 15 foot boats - but I wouldn't be one of them. Take Care - Rob
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Jim
Which would you choose?
Bob, allow me to answer your question with a question: Imagine yourself in a survival storm. Imagine yourself in a Catalina 30 in that storm. Consider the scene for a while. Now ask yourself if you should have gone to sea in a Pacific Seacraft 31.
Bob, allow me to answer your question with a question: Imagine yourself in a survival storm. Imagine yourself in a Catalina 30 in that storm. Consider the scene for a while. Now ask yourself if you should have gone to sea in a Pacific Seacraft 31.
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Mike
Bluewater Boat ?
Funny thing, I asked that same question a couple of days ago of a broker that was trying to sell me a Catalina 380. He grinned and said " Are you a Bluewater sailor ?" While equipment is a most important part of the equation, experience and just plain luck are probably just as important. Make sure you keep your insurance policy current. Best of Luck
Funny thing, I asked that same question a couple of days ago of a broker that was trying to sell me a Catalina 380. He grinned and said " Are you a Bluewater sailor ?" While equipment is a most important part of the equation, experience and just plain luck are probably just as important. Make sure you keep your insurance policy current. Best of Luck
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Thos Kober
Blue water boats
There was an article a few months ago in This Old Boat about refitting a Catalina 27 for offshore work. Larger rigging, reinforced hulls, and the list went on.. At least one has sailed around the world.. Bottom line though the reason I think Catalina is not considered a blue water boat is it's displacement is considered light and that may get you in trouble in 10 foot or more seas.. if you are thinking blue water you might want to consider something else..
There was an article a few months ago in This Old Boat about refitting a Catalina 27 for offshore work. Larger rigging, reinforced hulls, and the list went on.. At least one has sailed around the world.. Bottom line though the reason I think Catalina is not considered a blue water boat is it's displacement is considered light and that may get you in trouble in 10 foot or more seas.. if you are thinking blue water you might want to consider something else..
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