Just from my short experience with sailing I wouldn't choose Hunter, Catalina, or O'Day to take on serious bluewater. I am too cautious. I know "you get what you pay for" but are there new or used boats that don't cost 3,4, or 5 hundred thousand dollars in order to feel reasonably confident that it won't start falling apart in extremely rough conditions.
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Inexpensive (relatively speaking) Bluewater Boats
As I have been dreaming of a circumnavigation since my uncle took me sailing when I was ten (I won't say when that was), I've done a little armchair research. Check out the Westerly twin keels of the 70's, or, for a new sailboat, the Montgomery 23-foot Offshore Cutter is a gem. I think it costs $56K, which is not bad, relatively speaking.
As I have been dreaming of a circumnavigation since my uncle took me sailing when I was ten (I won't say when that was), I've done a little armchair research. Check out the Westerly twin keels of the 70's, or, for a new sailboat, the Montgomery 23-foot Offshore Cutter is a gem. I think it costs $56K, which is not bad, relatively speaking.
Short experience with sailing
is the reason you would not choose the boats you mentioned. With more experience maybe you will see that preparation AND the additional experience can be more important than the vessel!
is the reason you would not choose the boats you mentioned. With more experience maybe you will see that preparation AND the additional experience can be more important than the vessel!
Sure, find a good Westsail 32
Great boat, traditional lines, built like a brick #$)$)$house. Won't sail fast, but quite stout.
Great boat, traditional lines, built like a brick #$)$)$house. Won't sail fast, but quite stout.
I agree with the original response!!
I know I am going to upset a bunch of folks but, I also agree with the dismissal of the Hunter, Catalina, and ODay when speaking of hulls less than 30 feet in length. It's not a bad thing, it's just that these hulls were designed for something short of "Blue Water" sailing. Again, they work well for what they were designed for, but not for serious blue water sailing. Don't get your feelings hurt. Respect the mans opinion, and answer his question. Have you looked into Cape Dorys, Pearsons, Rangers etc.
I know I am going to upset a bunch of folks but, I also agree with the dismissal of the Hunter, Catalina, and ODay when speaking of hulls less than 30 feet in length. It's not a bad thing, it's just that these hulls were designed for something short of "Blue Water" sailing. Again, they work well for what they were designed for, but not for serious blue water sailing. Don't get your feelings hurt. Respect the mans opinion, and answer his question. Have you looked into Cape Dorys, Pearsons, Rangers etc.
From kayak to cruise ship
Bo should know... "It's not the size, it's how you use it!" For extended passages in open ocean, where the nearest safe habor is more than a week away, you don't want a boat, you want a small ship. Check the related link below (and their home page) by people who have lived the life. Also a lot of good information at SetSail.com: http://www.setsail.com/heavytt.html Happy sails, MArk
Bo should know... "It's not the size, it's how you use it!" For extended passages in open ocean, where the nearest safe habor is more than a week away, you don't want a boat, you want a small ship. Check the related link below (and their home page) by people who have lived the life. Also a lot of good information at SetSail.com: http://www.setsail.com/heavytt.html Happy sails, MArk
Not a hardware fix
I think a lot of us (myself being the foremost of this group) tend to get fixated on the 'hardware' and not the 'software'. We focus on the coolest bike with which to enter a bike race and consult all the catalogues and good gear, but we don't work out and improve our cardio-vascular threshhold. Real-world bike racers really don't care what bikes they have. They never advertise bike brands; never even talk about them. They focus on their own suitability for the feat being contemplated and get themselves into shape for it. The same is true with serious blue-water sailors. Look in any port in the world and you'll see ports of hail on transoms that you cannot imagine could ever have possibly made it there. What's up with that? The rude fact is that WITHIN REASON, almost any boat can be sailed anywhere. It all depends on the preparation of the skipper and crew and their suitability for the mission being considered. A confident but essentially ill-prepared guy with a very good boat is LESS likely to make it across the ocean than a properly-prepared guy with a boat the other guy thinks is unworthy of it. (The very fact that the ill-prepared guy deems the other guy's boat 'unworthy' of the challenge tells us something about the judgement of the ill-prepared guy, which I think is the whole point.) I really believe a well-prepared production boat can be made to make an all-ocean crossing. And some very good boats can be shown to fail under poor management. Reliance on fallible technology like GPS (a 'hardware fix') rather than skills development, navigational ability, and other kinds of fitness (a 'software' fix) will only lead to trouble. It will all come down to how well prepared the skipper and crew are and how sane and sensible their judgement is. That includes selecting the right boat and getting it ready. For any of us who have NOT really sailed an ocean (including me) to presume to identify 'the right boat' for the job-- especially on a limited budget which is probably the first consideration you should NOT consider limiting-- is essentially academic and of no real material value. JC
I think a lot of us (myself being the foremost of this group) tend to get fixated on the 'hardware' and not the 'software'. We focus on the coolest bike with which to enter a bike race and consult all the catalogues and good gear, but we don't work out and improve our cardio-vascular threshhold. Real-world bike racers really don't care what bikes they have. They never advertise bike brands; never even talk about them. They focus on their own suitability for the feat being contemplated and get themselves into shape for it. The same is true with serious blue-water sailors. Look in any port in the world and you'll see ports of hail on transoms that you cannot imagine could ever have possibly made it there. What's up with that? The rude fact is that WITHIN REASON, almost any boat can be sailed anywhere. It all depends on the preparation of the skipper and crew and their suitability for the mission being considered. A confident but essentially ill-prepared guy with a very good boat is LESS likely to make it across the ocean than a properly-prepared guy with a boat the other guy thinks is unworthy of it. (The very fact that the ill-prepared guy deems the other guy's boat 'unworthy' of the challenge tells us something about the judgement of the ill-prepared guy, which I think is the whole point.) I really believe a well-prepared production boat can be made to make an all-ocean crossing. And some very good boats can be shown to fail under poor management. Reliance on fallible technology like GPS (a 'hardware fix') rather than skills development, navigational ability, and other kinds of fitness (a 'software' fix) will only lead to trouble. It will all come down to how well prepared the skipper and crew are and how sane and sensible their judgement is. That includes selecting the right boat and getting it ready. For any of us who have NOT really sailed an ocean (including me) to presume to identify 'the right boat' for the job-- especially on a limited budget which is probably the first consideration you should NOT consider limiting-- is essentially academic and of no real material value. JC
My two cents anyway.
I would definitely avoid a 'bobbing cork' like a Westsail 32-- a boat in which lying ahull is more likely than ripping through or away from weather and making good speed. A guy we knew once sailed one from City Island to Bermuda-- spent 7 days hove-to. The whole trip is only worth 9 days-- I think he took 20. My dad always said the fastest boat is the safest, because it minimises your exposure to the elements of the voyage. It does not take a genius to see that the longer you are out there the greater beating you will take. That said, I'll take a well-built fast displacement yawl or ketch of 35-40 ft over a 'heavy-weather' Colin Archer type any day. JC
I would definitely avoid a 'bobbing cork' like a Westsail 32-- a boat in which lying ahull is more likely than ripping through or away from weather and making good speed. A guy we knew once sailed one from City Island to Bermuda-- spent 7 days hove-to. The whole trip is only worth 9 days-- I think he took 20. My dad always said the fastest boat is the safest, because it minimises your exposure to the elements of the voyage. It does not take a genius to see that the longer you are out there the greater beating you will take. That said, I'll take a well-built fast displacement yawl or ketch of 35-40 ft over a 'heavy-weather' Colin Archer type any day. JC
The skipper is the key
I absolutely agee with J. It is the skipper that counts. Consider Robin Lee Graham. He sailed a relatively light displacement monohull named "Dove", a Lapworth 24, early kin to a Cal. He made 3/4 of the way around the world before the boat gave out. Regardless, he didn't sink! He, the prudent skipper, recognized his dillemna and got a new boat to finish the trip (Allied 33, I believe). As for me, I went throught this excercise over the last 6 months in earnest. I have decided to get out of the armchair and local coastal sailing and buy, God forbid, a beautiful Hunter 356 or nearly new 380 with creature comforts to boot. I will try to be ready for the 2004 Singlehanded TRanspac out of SF to Hanalei Bay HI. I'll return directly before the Pacific High loses its stability and cover close to 5000 miles in 2 months. Am I crazy? Maybe, but again, I believe it is a prudent skipper that makes all the difference. Focus as J said on yourself, your piloting, your navigational, your mechanical capability, your diesel repair etc, etc. Buy the best boat you can afford and just get out there. LIfe is too short, and we do sit by and watch our chances pass us by sometimes. Go for it!
I absolutely agee with J. It is the skipper that counts. Consider Robin Lee Graham. He sailed a relatively light displacement monohull named "Dove", a Lapworth 24, early kin to a Cal. He made 3/4 of the way around the world before the boat gave out. Regardless, he didn't sink! He, the prudent skipper, recognized his dillemna and got a new boat to finish the trip (Allied 33, I believe). As for me, I went throught this excercise over the last 6 months in earnest. I have decided to get out of the armchair and local coastal sailing and buy, God forbid, a beautiful Hunter 356 or nearly new 380 with creature comforts to boot. I will try to be ready for the 2004 Singlehanded TRanspac out of SF to Hanalei Bay HI. I'll return directly before the Pacific High loses its stability and cover close to 5000 miles in 2 months. Am I crazy? Maybe, but again, I believe it is a prudent skipper that makes all the difference. Focus as J said on yourself, your piloting, your navigational, your mechanical capability, your diesel repair etc, etc. Buy the best boat you can afford and just get out there. LIfe is too short, and we do sit by and watch our chances pass us by sometimes. Go for it!
Also Agree - More the Skipper
There are people that have crossed oceans on the most unbelievable contraptions, including some small things, some one would be hard put to call a boat (maybe dingy), and certainly not what you would want as a cruiser. Suggest you subscribe to "Latitude 38" (www.latitude38.com) for a while and check out the "Changes in Latitudes" section. Great leters from cruisers that are out there doing it right now. Check what they're on. In the fall they have a section called "Baja Ha-Ha Preview" with interviews of participants and list their boats. In the October 2002 issue is a picture of a Wylie 28 "Wildflower" returning from Hawaii. The skipper and boat has "tens of thousands" of cruising miles and, by the way, took overall honors in the Pacific Cup. No matter what you get it'll need to be outfitted to your taste which takes more $$$. Once you're ready to do blue water cruising I think you'll find you can answer your own question. And to top it off, there's a good chance you won't be going in the boat you really want! I wish you luck with your dream!
There are people that have crossed oceans on the most unbelievable contraptions, including some small things, some one would be hard put to call a boat (maybe dingy), and certainly not what you would want as a cruiser. Suggest you subscribe to "Latitude 38" (www.latitude38.com) for a while and check out the "Changes in Latitudes" section. Great leters from cruisers that are out there doing it right now. Check what they're on. In the fall they have a section called "Baja Ha-Ha Preview" with interviews of participants and list their boats. In the October 2002 issue is a picture of a Wylie 28 "Wildflower" returning from Hawaii. The skipper and boat has "tens of thousands" of cruising miles and, by the way, took overall honors in the Pacific Cup. No matter what you get it'll need to be outfitted to your taste which takes more $$$. Once you're ready to do blue water cruising I think you'll find you can answer your own question. And to top it off, there's a good chance you won't be going in the boat you really want! I wish you luck with your dream!
Construction Methods
Somehwere in my nocturnal surfing, I discovered this article via this forum. I repost its location below and herein. http://www.hunterowners.com/ref/qa/qa.html It is a really helpful dialogue with Jim Bohart of Hunter Marine. It put my mind to rest on a few items of construction of Hunters. With the fantastic customer service I am already receiving from the factory contacts as well as the dealer network, and those that own them already, I feel pretty good about the Hunter line, especially the larger sizes of the mid 30's in length. I hope this helps you too. You spend some time reading it, as it is a long article, but I think well worth it. One extrapolation I would draw from this article, possibly erroneously, is that this type, Catalina, Hunter, Beneteau, Jeaneau et al are all likely built similarly as to reinforcement and quality. To step up to the next level, say a Pacific Seacraft, means stepping up big time in price or down considerabley in size/volume and amenities. That may be a good idea for some, but for me, I feel to keep the family involved, they need to feel comfortable for the short coastal stuff as long as I feel acceptable on the boat for the long distance stuff. I think Hunter fits that bill. Paul Soon to be a Hunter owner.
Somehwere in my nocturnal surfing, I discovered this article via this forum. I repost its location below and herein. http://www.hunterowners.com/ref/qa/qa.html It is a really helpful dialogue with Jim Bohart of Hunter Marine. It put my mind to rest on a few items of construction of Hunters. With the fantastic customer service I am already receiving from the factory contacts as well as the dealer network, and those that own them already, I feel pretty good about the Hunter line, especially the larger sizes of the mid 30's in length. I hope this helps you too. You spend some time reading it, as it is a long article, but I think well worth it. One extrapolation I would draw from this article, possibly erroneously, is that this type, Catalina, Hunter, Beneteau, Jeaneau et al are all likely built similarly as to reinforcement and quality. To step up to the next level, say a Pacific Seacraft, means stepping up big time in price or down considerabley in size/volume and amenities. That may be a good idea for some, but for me, I feel to keep the family involved, they need to feel comfortable for the short coastal stuff as long as I feel acceptable on the boat for the long distance stuff. I think Hunter fits that bill. Paul Soon to be a Hunter owner.
Westsail 32
Has to be one of the best bluewater sailor for the money, the westsail is an early Pacific Seacraft!
Has to be one of the best bluewater sailor for the money, the westsail is an early Pacific Seacraft!
Classic Plastic with Mods
A number of us have strengthened and modified the Cherubini designed Hunters for blue water cruising. The h34 has also been so modified. This has to be the most economical way to go, and about the only way to get a capable boat under 33 feet. If you want 40 feet or more, then seriously consider a current Hunter design, again with modifications recommended for blue water. There are certainly other candidates - Catalinas and Benteaus among them despite your comment. Generally the 70's designs are capable in the 30 foot range, while you need 40 feet in a modern boat. Touring the archives and owner reviews here will give you a wealth of info on the modifications to consider. David Lady Lillie
A number of us have strengthened and modified the Cherubini designed Hunters for blue water cruising. The h34 has also been so modified. This has to be the most economical way to go, and about the only way to get a capable boat under 33 feet. If you want 40 feet or more, then seriously consider a current Hunter design, again with modifications recommended for blue water. There are certainly other candidates - Catalinas and Benteaus among them despite your comment. Generally the 70's designs are capable in the 30 foot range, while you need 40 feet in a modern boat. Touring the archives and owner reviews here will give you a wealth of info on the modifications to consider. David Lady Lillie
SLOWSAIL
is the nickname for the Westsail! JC II is right on with his comments about lying ahull or outrunning weather. One major problem with the westsail is that the large majority of them were sold in kit form! Beware when a vessel is backyard finished.
is the nickname for the Westsail! JC II is right on with his comments about lying ahull or outrunning weather. One major problem with the westsail is that the large majority of them were sold in kit form! Beware when a vessel is backyard finished.
John Vigor Book
Bo, John Vigor has written a book called "Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere." I have looked at it but not read it thoroughly. It appears to be just the kind of advice you are looking for. It's available through the chandlery on this site. Gary Wyngarden S/V Shibumi H335
Bo, John Vigor has written a book called "Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere." I have looked at it but not read it thoroughly. It appears to be just the kind of advice you are looking for. It's available through the chandlery on this site. Gary Wyngarden S/V Shibumi H335
Learn as much as you can & keep you eyes open
Steals can be had if you keep your eyes & ears open. We were looking at a variety of different boats, even ones there's no way on earth we could have afforded, when the deal of the century fell into our laps. I saw a posting of a Crealock 37 for sale for super cheap. Rob called on it, asked if it was sitting on the bottom of the bay (the answer was no) & bought it sight unseen! Yes, we took a chance but felt comfortable considering the reported shape of the boat and potential worth. First you have know what you want in a boat, then just keep looking - every day - for it. They're out there! LaDonna
Steals can be had if you keep your eyes & ears open. We were looking at a variety of different boats, even ones there's no way on earth we could have afforded, when the deal of the century fell into our laps. I saw a posting of a Crealock 37 for sale for super cheap. Rob called on it, asked if it was sitting on the bottom of the bay (the answer was no) & bought it sight unseen! Yes, we took a chance but felt comfortable considering the reported shape of the boat and potential worth. First you have know what you want in a boat, then just keep looking - every day - for it. They're out there! LaDonna
Do your homework and prepare yourself
A lot of good advice given here and what it all boils down to is that you need to have an understanding of what you want/need and what your level of experience is. Once you've done this you'll have a better underststanding of what level of comfort you'd settle for and what element of risk you're comfortable with. I don't think there's any truly "bad" boats out there. But there's no question that some are better than others. it seems that everything comes down to a compromise. But I also believe we make a big mistake in thinking that the "robustness" of a boat can make up for our own personal lack of experience or laspes in good judgement. Any boat can be overwhelmed if we're foolish enough to put it at such risk. Some will give out before others, but ultimately they all can be pushed to their limits. 27yrs as a pilot taught me that. You NEVER beat Mother Nature...she merely lets you off until the next time. Good luck. Chances are you'll fall in love with whatever boat you choose.
A lot of good advice given here and what it all boils down to is that you need to have an understanding of what you want/need and what your level of experience is. Once you've done this you'll have a better underststanding of what level of comfort you'd settle for and what element of risk you're comfortable with. I don't think there's any truly "bad" boats out there. But there's no question that some are better than others. it seems that everything comes down to a compromise. But I also believe we make a big mistake in thinking that the "robustness" of a boat can make up for our own personal lack of experience or laspes in good judgement. Any boat can be overwhelmed if we're foolish enough to put it at such risk. Some will give out before others, but ultimately they all can be pushed to their limits. 27yrs as a pilot taught me that. You NEVER beat Mother Nature...she merely lets you off until the next time. Good luck. Chances are you'll fall in love with whatever boat you choose.
Allied Seawind II
Bo, I have not read the other responses. My dad had a 32" Allied Seawind II that he sold for about $30,000.00. It would have needed some new rigging etc. for blue water but it is possible to find a good used boat for a reasonable cost. r.w.landau
Bo, I have not read the other responses. My dad had a 32" Allied Seawind II that he sold for about $30,000.00. It would have needed some new rigging etc. for blue water but it is possible to find a good used boat for a reasonable cost. r.w.landau
Check Cruising World January 2003
On page 29 is an article called "Dollar Boats and Penny Repairs." Very good article. I have no plans to move from my lovely little lake any time soon. BUT I really don't think I have the skills to do it now either. When I was a wild eyed whitewater kayaker I paddled the same old boat for 10-12 years while everyone else was "moving up." I ran the rivers right beside them. "It ain't the boat," I used to say, "its the boater." Sure you need a sound boat. But look at what has sailed around the world AND back! I guess if you really want safety there is always the Princes Cruise Lines, but watch the food. Check out the article. Later, Mike
On page 29 is an article called "Dollar Boats and Penny Repairs." Very good article. I have no plans to move from my lovely little lake any time soon. BUT I really don't think I have the skills to do it now either. When I was a wild eyed whitewater kayaker I paddled the same old boat for 10-12 years while everyone else was "moving up." I ran the rivers right beside them. "It ain't the boat," I used to say, "its the boater." Sure you need a sound boat. But look at what has sailed around the world AND back! I guess if you really want safety there is always the Princes Cruise Lines, but watch the food. Check out the article. Later, Mike
Island Packet 31
They also made a 27 and 28. Terrific quality, cruising boat. Heavy, cutter rigged, many came with swing down center-board, which is handy. Heavy rigging, strong diesel etc. IP has great factory support. Very active owner's group, big cruising network. New boats are very pricey. But late 80's models sell from 60 to 100k.
They also made a 27 and 28. Terrific quality, cruising boat. Heavy, cutter rigged, many came with swing down center-board, which is handy. Heavy rigging, strong diesel etc. IP has great factory support. Very active owner's group, big cruising network. New boats are very pricey. But late 80's models sell from 60 to 100k.
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