with all the discussion about what makes a $200+ blue water cruiser and what is safe for blue water vs- coastal cruiser, other than being able to cross oceans what's the dif. I know lots of 25fters travel from Miami to the Bahamas and from Ca to Catalina Island all the time. is it over night, several days, what in your opinion changes island hopping into blue water cruising?
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Some considerations
Over the years I have come across various threads in which similar questions were being asked. Often a distinction was made between coastal, offshore and bluewater cruising, respectively. There appears to be some consensus that OFFSHORE cruising is where one goes beyond VHF communication range, thus requiring special equipment to call for assistance or obtain information about weather, etc. Amazingly, in many Westcoast US locations the Coast Guard VHF antennas are located high enough to make it possible to still talk to them on your VHF radio when you are some 100 - 200 NM offshore. Beyond that range, one often also needs special vessel insurance and might effectively be getting out of the more or less regularly patrolled coastal range. Posters in the same threads tended to agree that BLUEWATER cruising effectively starts beyond the point where one could still be plucked off the vessel by helicopter, etc. This would typically be at 500 - 600 NM away from land. Some generalizations may be made about minimum navigational, telecommunications and rescue equipment as well as provisions, spares and supplies plus the overall level of self-sufficiency (e.g. through preparation as well as redundancy and back-up systems)that most prudent sailors would associate with these terms. Unfortunately, the terms "offshore" and "bluewater" have very limited usefulness for determining the type of boat required or the experience and skills of the crew. Far more than the length of the voyage, issues such as trip routing (e.g. with regard to latitude, marine traffic and navigational obstacles), as well as timing (e.g. with regard to tropical and extratropical storm seasons, etc.)will determine how challenging a given "bluewater" cruise is likely to be. This, in turn, determines what type of vessel (rig, size, speed, strength) and crew (experience, size, condition) would be preferred. Personally, I find many bluewater passages relatively easy compared to coastal cruising in areas full of obstacles and traffic. In addition, I have heard several circumnavigators remark that they experienced the worst weather and most challenging navigational conditions close to the US coast. IMHO, one may often expect that "there be no dragons" (unless one manages to conjure them up by faulty preparation or planning). Have fun! Flying Dutchman
Over the years I have come across various threads in which similar questions were being asked. Often a distinction was made between coastal, offshore and bluewater cruising, respectively. There appears to be some consensus that OFFSHORE cruising is where one goes beyond VHF communication range, thus requiring special equipment to call for assistance or obtain information about weather, etc. Amazingly, in many Westcoast US locations the Coast Guard VHF antennas are located high enough to make it possible to still talk to them on your VHF radio when you are some 100 - 200 NM offshore. Beyond that range, one often also needs special vessel insurance and might effectively be getting out of the more or less regularly patrolled coastal range. Posters in the same threads tended to agree that BLUEWATER cruising effectively starts beyond the point where one could still be plucked off the vessel by helicopter, etc. This would typically be at 500 - 600 NM away from land. Some generalizations may be made about minimum navigational, telecommunications and rescue equipment as well as provisions, spares and supplies plus the overall level of self-sufficiency (e.g. through preparation as well as redundancy and back-up systems)that most prudent sailors would associate with these terms. Unfortunately, the terms "offshore" and "bluewater" have very limited usefulness for determining the type of boat required or the experience and skills of the crew. Far more than the length of the voyage, issues such as trip routing (e.g. with regard to latitude, marine traffic and navigational obstacles), as well as timing (e.g. with regard to tropical and extratropical storm seasons, etc.)will determine how challenging a given "bluewater" cruise is likely to be. This, in turn, determines what type of vessel (rig, size, speed, strength) and crew (experience, size, condition) would be preferred. Personally, I find many bluewater passages relatively easy compared to coastal cruising in areas full of obstacles and traffic. In addition, I have heard several circumnavigators remark that they experienced the worst weather and most challenging navigational conditions close to the US coast. IMHO, one may often expect that "there be no dragons" (unless one manages to conjure them up by faulty preparation or planning). Have fun! Flying Dutchman
Dan, look at what your own definition means...
"...other than being able to cross oceans what's the dif"? Here are a few things that pop into my mind using your definition: 1. Weather on the passage must be assumed to cover the full range of types and strengths for that season; convective, frontal, ITCZ-like; normal to extreme - one can't assume less. So...the boat has to accept severe racking and torquing without damage, the sails and hardware have to take the (relentless) shock loading, gear below has to be safely stored, and so forth 2. The crew has to be well cared for under these same conditions for an extended time period; often, no marina slip at the end of each passage with a hardware store around the corner, either. Cooking, sleeping, navigating, cleaning and 'ablutions' all must be accommodated, for an extended period, while in a washing machine. Try to imagine something as simple as using a chart table on most of the boats <38' while the boats heaving, on its ear and trying to do the same thing to you. Folks often bulk up on crew when going offshore, for several reasons; is there also room for them? and their gear? 3. Substantial load carrying is required, not just because the crew will eat (we hope) and drink, but because of the add'l stores which will still needed after arrival, because ample water supplies in multiple tanks occupies substantial cubic volume, because range under engine and therefore fuel tankage becomes more important (plus a surplus, again because supplies at the other end may be sparse), because an array of spares must have a home, because the boat is probably (over)loaded with systems (electronics, electrical + manual back-ups, sun/wind protection in/around the cockpit, and much more), because the chart inventory (don't forget the guides, pilots, ref books) are heavy and space-consuming...and we could go on. Moreover, all this loading is not supposed to substantially change the ability of the boat to perform NOR affect its heavy weather stability. Folks have done circles in all kinds of smaller, inexpensive boats not intended for a single ocean crossing, so your question is a fair one. But in such cases, the voyages have usually been done *despite* the boat's ability to accommodate needs like the above - and more importantly, because the crew self-sacrificed their comforts, were careful about their seasons and routing choices, because they were lucky and most especially because they were good seamen. Jack
"...other than being able to cross oceans what's the dif"? Here are a few things that pop into my mind using your definition: 1. Weather on the passage must be assumed to cover the full range of types and strengths for that season; convective, frontal, ITCZ-like; normal to extreme - one can't assume less. So...the boat has to accept severe racking and torquing without damage, the sails and hardware have to take the (relentless) shock loading, gear below has to be safely stored, and so forth 2. The crew has to be well cared for under these same conditions for an extended time period; often, no marina slip at the end of each passage with a hardware store around the corner, either. Cooking, sleeping, navigating, cleaning and 'ablutions' all must be accommodated, for an extended period, while in a washing machine. Try to imagine something as simple as using a chart table on most of the boats <38' while the boats heaving, on its ear and trying to do the same thing to you. Folks often bulk up on crew when going offshore, for several reasons; is there also room for them? and their gear? 3. Substantial load carrying is required, not just because the crew will eat (we hope) and drink, but because of the add'l stores which will still needed after arrival, because ample water supplies in multiple tanks occupies substantial cubic volume, because range under engine and therefore fuel tankage becomes more important (plus a surplus, again because supplies at the other end may be sparse), because an array of spares must have a home, because the boat is probably (over)loaded with systems (electronics, electrical + manual back-ups, sun/wind protection in/around the cockpit, and much more), because the chart inventory (don't forget the guides, pilots, ref books) are heavy and space-consuming...and we could go on. Moreover, all this loading is not supposed to substantially change the ability of the boat to perform NOR affect its heavy weather stability. Folks have done circles in all kinds of smaller, inexpensive boats not intended for a single ocean crossing, so your question is a fair one. But in such cases, the voyages have usually been done *despite* the boat's ability to accommodate needs like the above - and more importantly, because the crew self-sacrificed their comforts, were careful about their seasons and routing choices, because they were lucky and most especially because they were good seamen. Jack
Can't run away from weather
I agree with Henk's comments, and would add this thought. To me, bluewater also means you have to take the weather that comes, while coastal cruising means that you can get into port in a few hours. The result is that your boat should be rigged and strengthened to take a sustained blow with waves building up for days over a long fetch. It also means (as Henk implies) that you plan your cruise to avoid as best you can areas/seasons when severe gales or hurricanes are possible or probable. Then, the length of a bluewater journey also means capacity to carry fuel, water, and supplies far beyond that needed for coastal cruising where the marinas and grocery stores are never more than a day away. Finally, there is a new set of concerns for reliability. All sailing means planning for all contingencies, and setting up the boat's systems to handle them. For instance, we have material on board that would allow us to jury rig a rudder if we lost ours. But the jury rig of wood and rope would not stand up to a week of cruising. So I would add a length of pipe, and a couple to u-bolts to our stores if I were taking Lady Lillie on a bluewater cruise. David Lady Lillie
I agree with Henk's comments, and would add this thought. To me, bluewater also means you have to take the weather that comes, while coastal cruising means that you can get into port in a few hours. The result is that your boat should be rigged and strengthened to take a sustained blow with waves building up for days over a long fetch. It also means (as Henk implies) that you plan your cruise to avoid as best you can areas/seasons when severe gales or hurricanes are possible or probable. Then, the length of a bluewater journey also means capacity to carry fuel, water, and supplies far beyond that needed for coastal cruising where the marinas and grocery stores are never more than a day away. Finally, there is a new set of concerns for reliability. All sailing means planning for all contingencies, and setting up the boat's systems to handle them. For instance, we have material on board that would allow us to jury rig a rudder if we lost ours. But the jury rig of wood and rope would not stand up to a week of cruising. So I would add a length of pipe, and a couple to u-bolts to our stores if I were taking Lady Lillie on a bluewater cruise. David Lady Lillie
As many definitions as there are shades of gray
But to me there is a big difference between "Blue-Water" and "Island-Hopping", but not in the "toughness of the boat" but rather its layout and design I have always considered "Blue Water" sailing to be when you are out of the Coast Guard range of rescue (Is that 400 miles or so?). Where you will have to be basically self sufficient - nobody can come out to help you at the drop of a hat, even if you could contact them. (SSB). (Henks definitions are good and I think I'll go with them from now on.) In that same vein I think a blue water cruiser needs more tankage ability (fuel/water) and storage capability and proper sea berths and a galley useable in a constant seaway and at constant heel. Island hopping (or even a few days at sea) you don't really need any real good sea berths, you won't need to sleep while sailing or can deal with a little uncomfort for a night or two and with an "open" galley you can get by too. So sailboats with wide open galleys and saloons are great at anchor, but are a great liabilty in a seaway (thrown around)and those tight narrow galleys and saloons with lots of handholds are what you'd rather have on a blue water boat- Not to mention little things like rounded corners, high fiddles, smaller companion way openings, etc, etc . Beyond that one design feature that I'd expect in a real "blue water" boat is one with a high LPS (limit of positive stability) maybe 135 degree's or more, so the boat won't turn turtle as easily and if you are rolled, it will come back up on the next wave easier. Too many of the newer boats that are popular at boat shows with people that don't know any better or don't care are like "wedding cakes" or Dockside Winnebago's or Condo's with lots of weight & windage above the waterline - nice at the dock, but thats all. (Personally I don't even consider these boats as Island Hopping boats but "close" or inland coastal cruisers)
But to me there is a big difference between "Blue-Water" and "Island-Hopping", but not in the "toughness of the boat" but rather its layout and design I have always considered "Blue Water" sailing to be when you are out of the Coast Guard range of rescue (Is that 400 miles or so?). Where you will have to be basically self sufficient - nobody can come out to help you at the drop of a hat, even if you could contact them. (SSB). (Henks definitions are good and I think I'll go with them from now on.) In that same vein I think a blue water cruiser needs more tankage ability (fuel/water) and storage capability and proper sea berths and a galley useable in a constant seaway and at constant heel. Island hopping (or even a few days at sea) you don't really need any real good sea berths, you won't need to sleep while sailing or can deal with a little uncomfort for a night or two and with an "open" galley you can get by too. So sailboats with wide open galleys and saloons are great at anchor, but are a great liabilty in a seaway (thrown around)and those tight narrow galleys and saloons with lots of handholds are what you'd rather have on a blue water boat- Not to mention little things like rounded corners, high fiddles, smaller companion way openings, etc, etc . Beyond that one design feature that I'd expect in a real "blue water" boat is one with a high LPS (limit of positive stability) maybe 135 degree's or more, so the boat won't turn turtle as easily and if you are rolled, it will come back up on the next wave easier. Too many of the newer boats that are popular at boat shows with people that don't know any better or don't care are like "wedding cakes" or Dockside Winnebago's or Condo's with lots of weight & windage above the waterline - nice at the dock, but thats all. (Personally I don't even consider these boats as Island Hopping boats but "close" or inland coastal cruisers)
Choosing the crusing sailboat
Hi Dan; There is a book on "choosing the cruising sailboat". It is a pretty good read and breaks boats down into catagories. A catalina 30 would be considered a weekend cruiser by this book. I considered the C-30 a long while and looked at several. I bought the Pearson 323 because it is supposed to be a little more rugged. Sailing on a cat-30 and a P323 the pearson doesn't bounce around as much and doesn't feel quite as tender. I also liked the shallower draft(4.5') and skeg that protects the rudder. But honestly I don't know how either would do in really heavy weather. I think that either would be OK for the east coast, gulf coast and Bahamas. I've read about a P323 crossing the gulf from Houston to the keys and one going to Bermuda and back. As Clint Eastwood said in dirty harry. "do you feel lucky" Remind me and I'll bring the book in May. Another book that has shaped my ideas is "Sensible Cruising" the Thoreau approach. If we like cruising we will probably get a larger heavier boat in a couple of years to cross oceans. But right now I see cruising as something to do for a couple of years.
Hi Dan; There is a book on "choosing the cruising sailboat". It is a pretty good read and breaks boats down into catagories. A catalina 30 would be considered a weekend cruiser by this book. I considered the C-30 a long while and looked at several. I bought the Pearson 323 because it is supposed to be a little more rugged. Sailing on a cat-30 and a P323 the pearson doesn't bounce around as much and doesn't feel quite as tender. I also liked the shallower draft(4.5') and skeg that protects the rudder. But honestly I don't know how either would do in really heavy weather. I think that either would be OK for the east coast, gulf coast and Bahamas. I've read about a P323 crossing the gulf from Houston to the keys and one going to Bermuda and back. As Clint Eastwood said in dirty harry. "do you feel lucky" Remind me and I'll bring the book in May. Another book that has shaped my ideas is "Sensible Cruising" the Thoreau approach. If we like cruising we will probably get a larger heavier boat in a couple of years to cross oceans. But right now I see cruising as something to do for a couple of years.
thanks for the responses
most are pretty much what I expected. seems to me that coastal cruising and island hopping depends as much on common sense and a keen weather eye as the type of boat. those things in mind, it follows buy the most boat you can afford to be as comfortable as you can while chasing your dreams. I met a guy last summer who cruises from Pensacola to the Bahamas each year. he sails an old 70s Cal 25. he single hands this boat and commented the ruffest part of the trip is crossing the Big Bend. I also know several folks who make the trip each year in 30ft catamans. Tom, looking foward to seeing yall in May!
most are pretty much what I expected. seems to me that coastal cruising and island hopping depends as much on common sense and a keen weather eye as the type of boat. those things in mind, it follows buy the most boat you can afford to be as comfortable as you can while chasing your dreams. I met a guy last summer who cruises from Pensacola to the Bahamas each year. he sails an old 70s Cal 25. he single hands this boat and commented the ruffest part of the trip is crossing the Big Bend. I also know several folks who make the trip each year in 30ft catamans. Tom, looking foward to seeing yall in May!
Blue Water Price
You can easily get a great blue water boat for under $100,000. Buy a Hunter 37 cutter for $35,000, and put $15,000 into wise outfitting, as a number of us are doing, or have done. While size does help the ride, 30 feet was considered a good blue water length when my Dad was in the market some time ago. Buy the book on choosing a cruising sailboat in the chandlery as Tom recommended. It will describe the issues in lots of depth, and rate a lot of boats for you. Have a look at Henk's posts in the archives, too. He reminds us that if you pick the time and place (trades out of typhoon season, and the tropics) having a lighter modern hull that can go to weather makes a lot of sense. Oh yeah, Henk has done it while many of the rest of us are just dreaming! David Lady Lillie
You can easily get a great blue water boat for under $100,000. Buy a Hunter 37 cutter for $35,000, and put $15,000 into wise outfitting, as a number of us are doing, or have done. While size does help the ride, 30 feet was considered a good blue water length when my Dad was in the market some time ago. Buy the book on choosing a cruising sailboat in the chandlery as Tom recommended. It will describe the issues in lots of depth, and rate a lot of boats for you. Have a look at Henk's posts in the archives, too. He reminds us that if you pick the time and place (trades out of typhoon season, and the tropics) having a lighter modern hull that can go to weather makes a lot of sense. Oh yeah, Henk has done it while many of the rest of us are just dreaming! David Lady Lillie
Reed boats!
Men have crossed oceans in reed boats and balsa rafts without any dare devil tricks and a minimum of comfort! 16 footers have circled the world! Mini cruisers sail the Bahamas all the time. A cruising sailboat is what you make of it and it doesnt matter the cost!
Men have crossed oceans in reed boats and balsa rafts without any dare devil tricks and a minimum of comfort! 16 footers have circled the world! Mini cruisers sail the Bahamas all the time. A cruising sailboat is what you make of it and it doesnt matter the cost!
In the keys
a few years ago there was a stout east wind. The waves were nearly vertical about 4 feet high. We were going west so we sailed with just the genny all of the way to Key West. No Problem for us. When we returned to Marathon we talked to a guy who had hid out at the west end of seven mile bridge for four days because he couldn't cross to Marathon. Said that when he tried to sail into the wind the waves pounded his boat so hard that the hull was flexing and shaking so much that he thought that something would break. I forget what boat he had. Sure you can sail anywhere in anything as long as you have enough time to wait for the right conditions. But having experienced only one gale at sea I was very glad that I was on a 45' heavy sailboat instead of a Macgregor 25... Even on the 45' boat 2/3 of the people on board were so seasick and puked out that they could only leave their bunks to puke. People have a strange look after a couple of days of puking. Now let's be in a boat with two people who are puked out and nobody to steer!!!! A lightweight boat that can't care for itself. FUN FUN
a few years ago there was a stout east wind. The waves were nearly vertical about 4 feet high. We were going west so we sailed with just the genny all of the way to Key West. No Problem for us. When we returned to Marathon we talked to a guy who had hid out at the west end of seven mile bridge for four days because he couldn't cross to Marathon. Said that when he tried to sail into the wind the waves pounded his boat so hard that the hull was flexing and shaking so much that he thought that something would break. I forget what boat he had. Sure you can sail anywhere in anything as long as you have enough time to wait for the right conditions. But having experienced only one gale at sea I was very glad that I was on a 45' heavy sailboat instead of a Macgregor 25... Even on the 45' boat 2/3 of the people on board were so seasick and puked out that they could only leave their bunks to puke. People have a strange look after a couple of days of puking. Now let's be in a boat with two people who are puked out and nobody to steer!!!! A lightweight boat that can't care for itself. FUN FUN
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