I sail a 1980 Catalina 22 with new Ulman sails. A 150 hank on genny and a fully battened loose foot main. The sails are standard good grade Ulmans, not racing specials. In the past I have sailed in winds below 12 knots with the halyards loosened, outhaul loosened and headstay slackened. Above 12 knots I have gradually tighened everything up until it was time to reef. Usually I run mid pack. Last week I got into a "practice run" with 2 San Juan 23's and a Hunter 260. We started with very little wind, less than 5 knots, so I was quite loose and starting at the rear of this parade. The wind very quickly jumped straight to 15 knots plus without my changing any of the adjustments and the boat just flat out "hauled ass". The course was about 2.25 miles long with beating, reaching and running legs. For the first time ever I got the lead right away and was able to out point all others and actually pulled away over the entire course. WHY? Should I hold off tightening up everything until I almost continually want to round up or at what point should I resort to using a flat sail plan. I have all the bells and whistles but have never had this speed before Sunday. Even with these sails. Thanks, Ray
Big wind trim on a smaller well set-up boat.
- Thread starter Ray
- Start date
- Status
WHY
OK mates, chime in and tell Ray WHY what happened did happen. Think of his setup and relate it to the 2 different winds conditions he was sailing in.
OK mates, chime in and tell Ray WHY what happened did happen. Think of his setup and relate it to the 2 different winds conditions he was sailing in.
I do not know the answer to this question-
And I am very anxious to hear what others with more experience might have to say. Please give as much detail as time allows. Thanks a lot, Lance
And I am very anxious to hear what others with more experience might have to say. Please give as much detail as time allows. Thanks a lot, Lance
I'm not sure I know the answer
But before I even take a guess, how loose is loose. Did you just ease the tension off the halyards, or did you actually let some slack into them. Same with the outhaul.
But before I even take a guess, how loose is loose. Did you just ease the tension off the halyards, or did you actually let some slack into them. Same with the outhaul.
you were too loose in light air
and you didn't over trim when the wind kicked up. If you've followed don's comments over the years you'll know that in very light air having very full sails will make it difficult to maintain air flow, so medium depth sails work better. Your trim settings worked better when the windspeed increased because you were essentially "powered up" already. Finally you let the boat tell you what it wanted, rather than trim according to some preconceived set of rules. You should not depower the sails unless the boat demands it. After reaching top speed with current trim you might tweak the sails to gain a little but you must watch the knotmeter to guage the effect of any change. Just my opinion...
and you didn't over trim when the wind kicked up. If you've followed don's comments over the years you'll know that in very light air having very full sails will make it difficult to maintain air flow, so medium depth sails work better. Your trim settings worked better when the windspeed increased because you were essentially "powered up" already. Finally you let the boat tell you what it wanted, rather than trim according to some preconceived set of rules. You should not depower the sails unless the boat demands it. After reaching top speed with current trim you might tweak the sails to gain a little but you must watch the knotmeter to guage the effect of any change. Just my opinion...
power !
In 15 knots with the outhaul loose you had a deep belly in the main. With loose halyards the draft positions for the main and jib were aft / full....you basically had the sails fully "powered up". I am curious to hear your thoughts on your sheet tension/trim and traveller position (angle of attack). If you were only experiencing bad weather helm in the stonger gusts, you could play the traveller and delay flatening the sails as the next course of action.
In 15 knots with the outhaul loose you had a deep belly in the main. With loose halyards the draft positions for the main and jib were aft / full....you basically had the sails fully "powered up". I am curious to hear your thoughts on your sheet tension/trim and traveller position (angle of attack). If you were only experiencing bad weather helm in the stonger gusts, you could play the traveller and delay flatening the sails as the next course of action.
Not really enough information
"The wind very quickly jumped straight to 15 knots plus without my changing any of the adjustments" Sorry, not clear on what you mean. Did you sail in 5kt and if so what was the point of sail? What were the points of sail after the wind kicked in? 15kt true or apparent? You can point higher with less luff tension on the headsail and a loose setup would work good downwind. The mainsheet/traveler/vang/jibsheet/lead-angle control performance more than the standing rigging/halyard tensions. No mention of those particulars. On pointing and reaching the halyard tension influences the draft position but at these moderate wind speeds they aren't a deal killer. Sounds like Ray was sailing the sweet spot with full sails. What's not to like? Maybe Ray was just choking the life out of his sailplan on previous outings.
"The wind very quickly jumped straight to 15 knots plus without my changing any of the adjustments" Sorry, not clear on what you mean. Did you sail in 5kt and if so what was the point of sail? What were the points of sail after the wind kicked in? 15kt true or apparent? You can point higher with less luff tension on the headsail and a loose setup would work good downwind. The mainsheet/traveler/vang/jibsheet/lead-angle control performance more than the standing rigging/halyard tensions. No mention of those particulars. On pointing and reaching the halyard tension influences the draft position but at these moderate wind speeds they aren't a deal killer. Sounds like Ray was sailing the sweet spot with full sails. What's not to like? Maybe Ray was just choking the life out of his sailplan on previous outings.
Ray again. Thanks guys. Here's the rest.
Wow. I have a stock traveller on my C22 which is about 18" at best but it was centered. Earlier I had found the exact midpoint on the luft of my 150 and extended that line down through the clew and onto my genoa track. The sheet was led 3 inches aft of that. The 150 was 6 to 8 inches out from the spreader. The backstay adjuster was off so there was about 3 to 5 inches of pulled deflection in the forestay. Both halyards were dropped 1 1/2 inches from fully tight and the outhaul was loosened 2 1/2 inches. The draft was 50 to 60% back on the main. I did round-up once and had strong weather helm upwind and was healed over rather strongly, but it seems that she run a little more upright when very tight to the wind. I was nursing it real hard upwind to make the first bouy. Both on the close haul and on the beam reach I was running at 5.8 to 5.9 on the log and GPS which is as fast as she'll go. The boomvang was off upwind and down hard on the reach and downwind which was a deep reach. It was just enough to beat the SJ23's and that was good. Also we had close to 400# of people and we were both as far forward as possible and I raised the CB downwind. Damn it was good. I went back 2 days ago and rechecked all the settings and we went back out in much smaller winds and she was strong but not the same. Ray PS. The wind and the race happened so fast that there was no thought of changing anythihg. I do think that as some mentioned I probably harden up my sail plan at too low of a wind speed.
Wow. I have a stock traveller on my C22 which is about 18" at best but it was centered. Earlier I had found the exact midpoint on the luft of my 150 and extended that line down through the clew and onto my genoa track. The sheet was led 3 inches aft of that. The 150 was 6 to 8 inches out from the spreader. The backstay adjuster was off so there was about 3 to 5 inches of pulled deflection in the forestay. Both halyards were dropped 1 1/2 inches from fully tight and the outhaul was loosened 2 1/2 inches. The draft was 50 to 60% back on the main. I did round-up once and had strong weather helm upwind and was healed over rather strongly, but it seems that she run a little more upright when very tight to the wind. I was nursing it real hard upwind to make the first bouy. Both on the close haul and on the beam reach I was running at 5.8 to 5.9 on the log and GPS which is as fast as she'll go. The boomvang was off upwind and down hard on the reach and downwind which was a deep reach. It was just enough to beat the SJ23's and that was good. Also we had close to 400# of people and we were both as far forward as possible and I raised the CB downwind. Damn it was good. I went back 2 days ago and rechecked all the settings and we went back out in much smaller winds and she was strong but not the same. Ray PS. The wind and the race happened so fast that there was no thought of changing anythihg. I do think that as some mentioned I probably harden up my sail plan at too low of a wind speed.
Sail Trim
God put the sail trim controls for the main and jib on a boat for a very good reason - there is a particular setting for each point of sail and wind condition and you have to adjust them accordingly or your controls will be like the broken clock which is right twice a day. Joe (Mission Bay) hit it right away - I figured it would be him or Alan or Stu or one of many on this list that know their sail trim onions. As Joe indicated, the sails have to be tight in very light winds because the wind does not have the force to get around the sail and the sail stalls. On any given light air day you'll see mates with big bellies in their sails "trying to catch the wind". They do catch it but the wind has to flow over the sail for the boat to move forward and it can't with a big belly in the sails. Here, in very simple, basic terms is what your sails should look like as you progrss through the range of wind speed. In very light air you start with a flat sail. As the wind pipes up you gradually belly out the sail say up to 12 knots. At that point you start working your way back to a flat sail. After that, your next step is to reef. Why do you want a flat sail before you reef? It is because a flat sail lacks power and your trying to control the boat. This may sound confusing and if it does just fire away with any questions and I'll do my best to give you an answer. So now to Ray B's question. "Loose" is a relative term. I don't know how loose loose really is. Very loose is probably looser than loose so I assume the outhaul, halyard, vang etc were slacked off. Ray B was in last place and going nowhere in light air because his boat was set up for a higher wind condition and when those conditions materialized he took off. It really is as simple as that. If a begginer or intermediate wants to get decent performance from his sails he or she has to understand draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack plus they have to the purpose of each sail trim control for the main and jib. At that point they are almost home from a sail trim standpoint. The MOST IMPORTANT last piece is knowing the correct sail trim control setting for each control on the main and jib for each point of sail and wind condition. Sounds like a lot of stuff to learn doesn't it? It is no different than learning to hit a baseball, tennis or golf ball. If you want to improve there is the price to pay. There are a couple of ways to learn this stuff - trial and error and you'll be old and gray before you finish. Take lessons and you'll be broke - hopefully you'll find an instructor who can explain sail trim in plain English (I couldn't). There is another way. Take a look at my book THE SAIL TRIM USERS GUIDE or my SAIL TRIM CHART. There is not one sail trim question that has EVER come up on this sail trim forum that a mate couldn't answer by referring to either of those products. Like, where do you think I get my answers!?! I don't make this stuff up as I go along. It's like riding a bike. Once you learn to ride that is about it - nuclear research it ain't.
God put the sail trim controls for the main and jib on a boat for a very good reason - there is a particular setting for each point of sail and wind condition and you have to adjust them accordingly or your controls will be like the broken clock which is right twice a day. Joe (Mission Bay) hit it right away - I figured it would be him or Alan or Stu or one of many on this list that know their sail trim onions. As Joe indicated, the sails have to be tight in very light winds because the wind does not have the force to get around the sail and the sail stalls. On any given light air day you'll see mates with big bellies in their sails "trying to catch the wind". They do catch it but the wind has to flow over the sail for the boat to move forward and it can't with a big belly in the sails. Here, in very simple, basic terms is what your sails should look like as you progrss through the range of wind speed. In very light air you start with a flat sail. As the wind pipes up you gradually belly out the sail say up to 12 knots. At that point you start working your way back to a flat sail. After that, your next step is to reef. Why do you want a flat sail before you reef? It is because a flat sail lacks power and your trying to control the boat. This may sound confusing and if it does just fire away with any questions and I'll do my best to give you an answer. So now to Ray B's question. "Loose" is a relative term. I don't know how loose loose really is. Very loose is probably looser than loose so I assume the outhaul, halyard, vang etc were slacked off. Ray B was in last place and going nowhere in light air because his boat was set up for a higher wind condition and when those conditions materialized he took off. It really is as simple as that. If a begginer or intermediate wants to get decent performance from his sails he or she has to understand draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack plus they have to the purpose of each sail trim control for the main and jib. At that point they are almost home from a sail trim standpoint. The MOST IMPORTANT last piece is knowing the correct sail trim control setting for each control on the main and jib for each point of sail and wind condition. Sounds like a lot of stuff to learn doesn't it? It is no different than learning to hit a baseball, tennis or golf ball. If you want to improve there is the price to pay. There are a couple of ways to learn this stuff - trial and error and you'll be old and gray before you finish. Take lessons and you'll be broke - hopefully you'll find an instructor who can explain sail trim in plain English (I couldn't). There is another way. Take a look at my book THE SAIL TRIM USERS GUIDE or my SAIL TRIM CHART. There is not one sail trim question that has EVER come up on this sail trim forum that a mate couldn't answer by referring to either of those products. Like, where do you think I get my answers!?! I don't make this stuff up as I go along. It's like riding a bike. Once you learn to ride that is about it - nuclear research it ain't.
- Status