Help me on this small survey? Any nominations for boats you are familiar with and your brief reasons why they should make such a list would be much appreciated. Thanks to all very much! Dave
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If you should dig deeply enough I think
that you will find that the best are not the most popular. Naval Architect Danny Green published "Cruising Sail Boat Kinetics" and has in that book a number of boats with their lines that will not be mentioned here. C.J. Marchaj Published " Seaworthiness the Forgotten Factor" in it you will find many boats rarely found in popular print. You have asked for personal opinions of the best cruising boats and most of the answers that you get will be subjective rather than objective opinions. From my point of view there are very few production boats today that are built with cruising as the primary function of their being. There simply are not very many cruising boat owners. Morse Yachts builds the Bristol Channel Cutter which may be arguably one of the very best of the smaller boats for your list.
that you will find that the best are not the most popular. Naval Architect Danny Green published "Cruising Sail Boat Kinetics" and has in that book a number of boats with their lines that will not be mentioned here. C.J. Marchaj Published " Seaworthiness the Forgotten Factor" in it you will find many boats rarely found in popular print. You have asked for personal opinions of the best cruising boats and most of the answers that you get will be subjective rather than objective opinions. From my point of view there are very few production boats today that are built with cruising as the primary function of their being. There simply are not very many cruising boat owners. Morse Yachts builds the Bristol Channel Cutter which may be arguably one of the very best of the smaller boats for your list.
Have either of you sailed one?
I didn't find that the boat aroused my lust in the slightest. The BC Cutter is quaint to be sure, but I'm not sure that I would make it a top choice. Too bad the upper size limit is 42 feet. Some very good boats get excluded. I'd look at Shannon (IIRC they still build a 39) Best cruising boat is hard to define. Cruising boats fall into three classes. Traditional displacement types (anything with a D/L ratio of 150 or more), Ultra Light Displacement Boats (D/L under 100), and Multi-hulls. IMO no boat in the 30-42 foot range makes an ideal cruiser. Heavy boats in that size range typically do not have the storage and tankage for ocean sailing. Boats that do have the storage and tankage are pretty slow for their size, thus they need more storage and tankage ... below 40-45 feet the answer is extra beam. Extra beam brings reduced resistance to capsize and lower motion comfort ratios. A very interesting boat is the POGO40 ... it is the cruising version of the Pogo Class40 racer. It has a very good GZ curve (capsize resistance), has watertight bulkheads, is unsinkable, and has a water ballast system. Since the Class40 boats race single-handed, the boat is designed to be sailed by a small crew. The interior is a bit sparse compared to many of the gin palaces that get sold in that size range, but it is complete and functional. Because the boat is light for it's size it may not have a cushy ride, but there is no doubt about it's seaworthiness. 40 feet is the crossover point between a cruising trimaran having more living space (not much) and a cruising catamaran having more living space (more). Below 40 feet, look at the Farrier 39 Tri. Once you can get past the 45 foot size, you have several good choices. At 45-50 feet you can have good performance, plenty of space, and a seaworthy boat. Once you get into the 55ft LWL and up boats, look at a Sundeer or Deerfoot. These are ULDB's that are designed as fast cruisers. Read Dashew's Bluewater Handbook. He makes a very good case for speed as a safety factor for cruising boats. Slow boats must be stronger built, they will be caught in more storms.
I didn't find that the boat aroused my lust in the slightest. The BC Cutter is quaint to be sure, but I'm not sure that I would make it a top choice. Too bad the upper size limit is 42 feet. Some very good boats get excluded. I'd look at Shannon (IIRC they still build a 39) Best cruising boat is hard to define. Cruising boats fall into three classes. Traditional displacement types (anything with a D/L ratio of 150 or more), Ultra Light Displacement Boats (D/L under 100), and Multi-hulls. IMO no boat in the 30-42 foot range makes an ideal cruiser. Heavy boats in that size range typically do not have the storage and tankage for ocean sailing. Boats that do have the storage and tankage are pretty slow for their size, thus they need more storage and tankage ... below 40-45 feet the answer is extra beam. Extra beam brings reduced resistance to capsize and lower motion comfort ratios. A very interesting boat is the POGO40 ... it is the cruising version of the Pogo Class40 racer. It has a very good GZ curve (capsize resistance), has watertight bulkheads, is unsinkable, and has a water ballast system. Since the Class40 boats race single-handed, the boat is designed to be sailed by a small crew. The interior is a bit sparse compared to many of the gin palaces that get sold in that size range, but it is complete and functional. Because the boat is light for it's size it may not have a cushy ride, but there is no doubt about it's seaworthiness. 40 feet is the crossover point between a cruising trimaran having more living space (not much) and a cruising catamaran having more living space (more). Below 40 feet, look at the Farrier 39 Tri. Once you can get past the 45 foot size, you have several good choices. At 45-50 feet you can have good performance, plenty of space, and a seaworthy boat. Once you get into the 55ft LWL and up boats, look at a Sundeer or Deerfoot. These are ULDB's that are designed as fast cruisers. Read Dashew's Bluewater Handbook. He makes a very good case for speed as a safety factor for cruising boats. Slow boats must be stronger built, they will be caught in more storms.
I'm in on this discussion
Ross: Great post! I agree with you that many of today's production boats are not great cruisers. In my opinion they are designed to appeal to "in harbor" crowd. There are exceptions and most of them are expensive if buying new. Crealock designs, Caliber, and Island Packet pop into mind as good cruising boats. One of the big problems I find with today's' designs are a lack of good sea berths and aft cabins which sacrifice cockpit storage. I picked up a Nassau 34 a couple of years ago at a reasonable price. Taiwan built, canoe stern and a great cruising boat for 2. I spent 3 continuous months aboard this past summer and was very comfortable. Production boats are good for short cruises - a few weeks - but interiors are really designed for the marina where you can run AC and stay plugged in.
Ross: Great post! I agree with you that many of today's production boats are not great cruisers. In my opinion they are designed to appeal to "in harbor" crowd. There are exceptions and most of them are expensive if buying new. Crealock designs, Caliber, and Island Packet pop into mind as good cruising boats. One of the big problems I find with today's' designs are a lack of good sea berths and aft cabins which sacrifice cockpit storage. I picked up a Nassau 34 a couple of years ago at a reasonable price. Taiwan built, canoe stern and a great cruising boat for 2. I spent 3 continuous months aboard this past summer and was very comfortable. Production boats are good for short cruises - a few weeks - but interiors are really designed for the marina where you can run AC and stay plugged in.
Ahoy Moody
Can't say I've sailed a BCC, but the reviews I've read, including narrative by the Pardeys of their boats (which are quite similar) have been quite favorable. The number of small production boats that get good reviews is very limited (Pacific Seacraft Dana and the Contessa 26 or 32 are a few that come readily to mind). I agree that speed as an important element of safety. However, speed depens on equipment reliability. If something breaks and the boat is slowed, the advantages associated with speed are compromised. For example, smaller tankage and fewer stores become a liability. Conventional wisdom still holds that a sturdy boat with a versatile rig that can sailed by a short-handed crew in a wide variety of sea conditions is preferable. A boat like that will take care of her crew in severe conditions with very little need for their input. Finally, I like the BCC because it displays a certain unique character that comes from dedication to a specific purpose (I believe Porsche called it "form follows function"). Add the reliability of modern systems and it's a winning combination in my book, kind of like an old sports car without the oil leaks. Peter H23 "Raven"
Can't say I've sailed a BCC, but the reviews I've read, including narrative by the Pardeys of their boats (which are quite similar) have been quite favorable. The number of small production boats that get good reviews is very limited (Pacific Seacraft Dana and the Contessa 26 or 32 are a few that come readily to mind). I agree that speed as an important element of safety. However, speed depens on equipment reliability. If something breaks and the boat is slowed, the advantages associated with speed are compromised. For example, smaller tankage and fewer stores become a liability. Conventional wisdom still holds that a sturdy boat with a versatile rig that can sailed by a short-handed crew in a wide variety of sea conditions is preferable. A boat like that will take care of her crew in severe conditions with very little need for their input. Finally, I like the BCC because it displays a certain unique character that comes from dedication to a specific purpose (I believe Porsche called it "form follows function"). Add the reliability of modern systems and it's a winning combination in my book, kind of like an old sports car without the oil leaks. Peter H23 "Raven"
What kind of cruising?
Blue Water, Around Cape horn, Coastal cruising in shallow waters on east coast, deep waters off pacific? It really matters. Asking for input into what we might consider is best is really very dependant on how 'she' is going to be used. One boats is not necessarily better than another, but rather are designed more appropriately for one purpose over another. As much as I would want a very heavy and high LPS boat for rounding the capes, I am not sure I would want the same boat for Cruising locally. My marina has many "world cruisers" that rarely leave the dock, because they are not as fun and easy to sail and for local harbor hopping they are slow in the lighter winds we sometimes have. With that said I think the Malo's and Halberg Rasseys are pretty stout well made "ocean going" boats (hate that term but you all know what I mean), but by no means the only boats I would put on my list.
Blue Water, Around Cape horn, Coastal cruising in shallow waters on east coast, deep waters off pacific? It really matters. Asking for input into what we might consider is best is really very dependant on how 'she' is going to be used. One boats is not necessarily better than another, but rather are designed more appropriately for one purpose over another. As much as I would want a very heavy and high LPS boat for rounding the capes, I am not sure I would want the same boat for Cruising locally. My marina has many "world cruisers" that rarely leave the dock, because they are not as fun and easy to sail and for local harbor hopping they are slow in the lighter winds we sometimes have. With that said I think the Malo's and Halberg Rasseys are pretty stout well made "ocean going" boats (hate that term but you all know what I mean), but by no means the only boats I would put on my list.
More parameters needed
Oooh...I think Dave opened the box. My picks are the Catalina 38 for realistic price range in the late model class. And Bayfield 36 in the oldie but a goodie class. Note: no experience with either one. Perhaps a price range would help with decisions.
Oooh...I think Dave opened the box. My picks are the Catalina 38 for realistic price range in the late model class. And Bayfield 36 in the oldie but a goodie class. Note: no experience with either one. Perhaps a price range would help with decisions.
There are 150 Prospects
In Roger Marshall's book "Choosing a Cruising Sailboat." The serious point is each of these boats could be just the right cruising boat for you. We think our '77 h27 is just right for us. Oh, we can think of a few improvements. But no other boats matches our requirements as well at this time. Among our chartered boats over the years: - The Moorings 4500 had the best accommodations for 8 people - really for 4 couples. - The Hunter 340 with a furling main had the best sail plan. - The Beneteau 35 had the best accommodations for the two of us. - The Fantasy 37 was the best looking boat - outside and inside. - And so on... I just don't think a "best" list would be very helpful. David Lady Lillie
In Roger Marshall's book "Choosing a Cruising Sailboat." The serious point is each of these boats could be just the right cruising boat for you. We think our '77 h27 is just right for us. Oh, we can think of a few improvements. But no other boats matches our requirements as well at this time. Among our chartered boats over the years: - The Moorings 4500 had the best accommodations for 8 people - really for 4 couples. - The Hunter 340 with a furling main had the best sail plan. - The Beneteau 35 had the best accommodations for the two of us. - The Fantasy 37 was the best looking boat - outside and inside. - And so on... I just don't think a "best" list would be very helpful. David Lady Lillie
According to "Sensible Cruising"
The best cruising boat is the one that you have. Failing that it's one that you can buy now and take cruising ...now. Also most of your money should be set aside for cruising because if you tie up all your moany in the boat you can't go cruising. Our Pearson 323 pretty much is our compromise between what we can afford and our choice of boats. My wife and I can handle the boat in most conditions and have been comfortable for two weeks at a time. The biggest problem is lack of storage. Originally we planned to sell our house and buy a better boat. But now we are leaning towards keeping a house and spending roughly equal time between the boat and house. At some point the land or the sea will probably win and we will commit to one or the other. But right now it is nice to have a boat and no boat payments. Marshalls book on boat design is a great introduction to factors to consider when buying a boat. Also 20 boats to sail anywhere. But realistically most people aren't willing to sail a Catalina 27 around the world. Now a Pacific Seacraft 37!!!!! I even met a couple that sailed a Pacific Seacraft Orion around the world. They graciously let me tour their boat. It was a beautiful boat but spending a month at sea in such a small boat would require special people. They said that they were lucky and the only "bad " weather that they experienced was between South Africa and St Helena Island.
The best cruising boat is the one that you have. Failing that it's one that you can buy now and take cruising ...now. Also most of your money should be set aside for cruising because if you tie up all your moany in the boat you can't go cruising. Our Pearson 323 pretty much is our compromise between what we can afford and our choice of boats. My wife and I can handle the boat in most conditions and have been comfortable for two weeks at a time. The biggest problem is lack of storage. Originally we planned to sell our house and buy a better boat. But now we are leaning towards keeping a house and spending roughly equal time between the boat and house. At some point the land or the sea will probably win and we will commit to one or the other. But right now it is nice to have a boat and no boat payments. Marshalls book on boat design is a great introduction to factors to consider when buying a boat. Also 20 boats to sail anywhere. But realistically most people aren't willing to sail a Catalina 27 around the world. Now a Pacific Seacraft 37!!!!! I even met a couple that sailed a Pacific Seacraft Orion around the world. They graciously let me tour their boat. It was a beautiful boat but spending a month at sea in such a small boat would require special people. They said that they were lucky and the only "bad " weather that they experienced was between South Africa and St Helena Island.
Right Doug - need more parameters; how about...
28-42', 1985 to present, $30,000 to 100,000, full keel, sloop prefered but maybe cutter rig, let's talk mono-hull, single-handed w/modest help from 1st mate, Great Lakes but got to be coastal cruising capable. So there you have it. That can narrow things down a bit maybe. Yes, I want to open that proverbial can of worms and get real opinions from forum people on specific boats (vs. philosophical rants or 'advice' like go read this book...know what I mean.?) If you got a great bluewater cruiser in mind just say it. Your opinion is as valid as the next guy's.
28-42', 1985 to present, $30,000 to 100,000, full keel, sloop prefered but maybe cutter rig, let's talk mono-hull, single-handed w/modest help from 1st mate, Great Lakes but got to be coastal cruising capable. So there you have it. That can narrow things down a bit maybe. Yes, I want to open that proverbial can of worms and get real opinions from forum people on specific boats (vs. philosophical rants or 'advice' like go read this book...know what I mean.?) If you got a great bluewater cruiser in mind just say it. Your opinion is as valid as the next guy's.
Full keel
and under $100K. Well that knocks out the dream boats and the most production boats. It IS best that we dream within our means. Much more likely to realize them.
and under $100K. Well that knocks out the dream boats and the most production boats. It IS best that we dream within our means. Much more likely to realize them.
Dave, thanks for helping us narrow that
Now that you narrowed down the specifics you really opened up the possibilities! I have a few questions though. What is your reasons for a full keel boat? Do you have experience sailing a full keeled boat in your area? Not to knock a full keeled boat as they have their place, but when you talk about your type sailing "Great Lakes but got to be coastal cruising capable" a 'true' full keel boat (like a WestSails)is the last boat I would be thinking about. I think you'd be very disappointed in the performance Even well pedigree'd world cruising boats like Valiant or pacific seacrafts aren't true full keel boats but really modified full keel boats (Cut away forefoot or boats with the "Brewer Bite") Here is a very good article written on "Choosing a safe boat - Five rules For Choosing A Safe Boat" -- I suggest spending 5-10 minutes reading it as it will help anyone choosing a boat. It breaks down logical thoughts and reasons to pick the best boat for you and the sailing you are considering http://www.boats.com/boat-articles/Design+and+Construction-109/Choosing+a+safe+boat/1261.html Here is another "list" of someones better design ratio's for offshore boats. Does not mean better boats to me just an analysis of the "numbers" when it comes to a boats weight/design etc http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/best.htm And here is his list of boats under $100k (old list not sure what prices are these days http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/lowcost.htm Personally I think you should seriously considering other types of boats/keels for the cruising you are looking at , but its your boat and your decision. Good luck and have fun looking
Now that you narrowed down the specifics you really opened up the possibilities! I have a few questions though. What is your reasons for a full keel boat? Do you have experience sailing a full keeled boat in your area? Not to knock a full keeled boat as they have their place, but when you talk about your type sailing "Great Lakes but got to be coastal cruising capable" a 'true' full keel boat (like a WestSails)is the last boat I would be thinking about. I think you'd be very disappointed in the performance Even well pedigree'd world cruising boats like Valiant or pacific seacrafts aren't true full keel boats but really modified full keel boats (Cut away forefoot or boats with the "Brewer Bite") Here is a very good article written on "Choosing a safe boat - Five rules For Choosing A Safe Boat" -- I suggest spending 5-10 minutes reading it as it will help anyone choosing a boat. It breaks down logical thoughts and reasons to pick the best boat for you and the sailing you are considering http://www.boats.com/boat-articles/Design+and+Construction-109/Choosing+a+safe+boat/1261.html Here is another "list" of someones better design ratio's for offshore boats. Does not mean better boats to me just an analysis of the "numbers" when it comes to a boats weight/design etc http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/best.htm And here is his list of boats under $100k (old list not sure what prices are these days http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/lowcost.htm Personally I think you should seriously considering other types of boats/keels for the cruising you are looking at , but its your boat and your decision.
Good luck and have fun looking
perhaps Cruising sailboats are a bit like Texas.
It is not so much a place or a thing as a state of mind. Nancy and I are quite comfortable in our 30 foot Islander. We can spend a week at a time there and not get in each others way. We don't know about longer because we haven't had opportunity to take two or three weeks. Good food and good books and a feeling of being safe is enough. I should think that sailing the Great Lakes is as demanding of a boat as ocean sailing. Those ponds are BIG.
It is not so much a place or a thing as a state of mind. Nancy and I are quite comfortable in our 30 foot Islander. We can spend a week at a time there and not get in each others way. We don't know about longer because we haven't had opportunity to take two or three weeks. Good food and good books and a feeling of being safe is enough. I should think that sailing the Great Lakes is as demanding of a boat as ocean sailing. Those ponds are BIG.
Full Keel and the Great Lakes
From a Great Lakes sailor: I don't understand the problem with a full keeler on the Great Lakes. My 1st boat on L Mich was a full keeler and I sailed it a dozen years or so before swithching to a fin keeler for another dozen years, and now I am back to a full keeler. I don't think, for cruising, either keel type really mattered much. The full keeler is somewhat tougher to handle in tight quarters, but one learns how to handle it. The full keeler tracks better and thus an auto pilot has less work to do. Full keel does not neccesssarily mean poor light air performance, I think displacement is more the issue. In light air, most cruisers on the Lakes motor anyways.
From a Great Lakes sailor: I don't understand the problem with a full keeler on the Great Lakes. My 1st boat on L Mich was a full keeler and I sailed it a dozen years or so before swithching to a fin keeler for another dozen years, and now I am back to a full keeler. I don't think, for cruising, either keel type really mattered much. The full keeler is somewhat tougher to handle in tight quarters, but one learns how to handle it. The full keeler tracks better and thus an auto pilot has less work to do. Full keel does not neccesssarily mean poor light air performance, I think displacement is more the issue. In light air, most cruisers on the Lakes motor anyways.
Cruising boat
My Neighbor has a 30' Baba which looks like a baby Hans Christian. Very hefty, sturdy, and very pretty full keel boat. He's cruised Mexico for months in it. I've recently seen a 4 sale ad on exact the same boat. Google 30' Baba. You will like the looks of it, and like a Hans Christian it will take u anywhere safely.
My Neighbor has a 30' Baba which looks like a baby Hans Christian. Very hefty, sturdy, and very pretty full keel boat. He's cruised Mexico for months in it. I've recently seen a 4 sale ad on exact the same boat. Google 30' Baba. You will like the looks of it, and like a Hans Christian it will take u anywhere safely.
thanks for LISTS and all other comments to date
REALLY like lists. And all the numbers. (must be from a previous life as accountant/auditor type). These were very worthwhile as they confirmed a lot of what I have come across previously in researching and added more detail. Will be helpful going forward. Yea cutaway keel A-ok with skeg rudder and is just what I had in mind in some cases. Have got draft limits of say 5 ft max also (don't ask, just don't want to deal with it). NO mechanical keels either! Much food for thought.
REALLY like lists. And all the numbers. (must be from a previous life as accountant/auditor type). These were very worthwhile as they confirmed a lot of what I have come across previously in researching and added more detail. Will be helpful going forward. Yea cutaway keel A-ok with skeg rudder and is just what I had in mind in some cases. Have got draft limits of say 5 ft max also (don't ask, just don't want to deal with it). NO mechanical keels either! Much food for thought.
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