Beneteau First 305 (Pictures) help

[GregorLuv]

Hi Folks,

So I went down and inspected the boat (thank you for the link about what to inspect). I saw no rotting under the floor boards, was unable to analyze the keel (since it's in the water); but, did manage to get a professional survey report from 2012 with no osmosis issues and no keel rusting issues. The boat probably requires new bottom paint.

The owners accepted the offer as-is and said there are two known issues: 1) Heat and 2) Windless

I was hoping you guys could take a look at the pictures I took to let me know if it seems like I am looking at bigger problems, here is what concerns me:
1) Some cracks on the aft side
2) Minor build-up near the plumbing area in the bathroom
3) Old pipe in the heating unit
4) Minor corrosion on the plate where the engine is bolted down

I figure if osmosis was an issue then the 2012 professionally done survey would indicate it. The likelihood of osmosis 3 years later is probably unlikely? So should I skip the buyers survey and save myself $800 which I can spend toward the heating issue and windless issue not to mention bottom paint? Or get it to be sure? I can upload the full survey as well it states all things in good working condition w/ the primary volvo engine only having 485 total service hours on it.

Pictures are here: http://imgur.com/a/ROpQd

 

[Gunni]

I don't like the look of those motor mounts, and that sloppy DIY wiring is a huge turn-off. Get the survey, make sure it includes a sea-trial that includes the motor running/prop spinning, and all electrical systems checked. Ask for the maintenance logs. Get a short-haul. The stress cracks and stern damage just indicate this was a boat that was rode hard. You need to be sure she wasn't put up wet.

 

[GregorLuv]

I don't like the look of those motor mounts, and that sloppy DIY wiring is a huge turn-off. Get the survey, make sure it includes a sea-trial that includes the motor running/prop spinning, and all electrical systems checked. Ask for the maintenance logs. Get a short-haul. The stress cracks and stern damage just indicate this was a boat that was rode hard. You need to be sure she wasn't put up wet.

Just to clarify you mean the wiring indicated in the plumbing area? My good faith deposit was contingent upon a sea-trial and a survey but the caveat being that I have a 2012 survey on this boat that states this:
1) Approved marine themoplastic coated multi-strand copper; adequately loomed and choked
2) The electrical system is in apparent good order

The town where this boat sits only has one surveyor and it would be the same surveyor who would do the survey on this boat again. I almost wondered whether it might be better to get a boat repair shop to send a technician out to get a 'quote' on the repairs needed in light of the surveyor bit.

Oh, and apparently the couple that owns this are really old so I am 99.9% certain, they did not DIY the wiring, that it was this way when they bought it in 2013.

Thoughts?

 

[CloudDiver]

Most of your issues are minor and/or normal... except the last one...
- The chip in the bow is just in the gelcoat, nothing serious and probably just a dinghy bumped into the bow or something.
- On the stern, probably a minor impact from a hard dingy or similar, possibly a dock rub. If it was a major impact there would be a lot more damage. Its obvious the some gelcoat filler was applied because of the color difference. Factory color matched gelcoat paste is available from Spectrum Color, but its nothing that stops you from sailing.
- I'm not sure what that plate is next to the Beneteau decal, but yes, it just needs a reseal with a bedding compound or butyl tape.
- I don't see what the issue is with the Windlass based on the picture... all I see is a rode sticking out of the anchor locker, good galvanized chain and a nice stainless swivel shackle. Replacing a non-functioning windlass shouldn't be a big deal, or a good electrician could possibly repair the existing one.
- Those 'stress fractures' are called gelcoat crazing or spider cracks... its kinda normal. It happens when the fiberglass flexes under the gelcoat, and the gelcoat isn't as flexible. Its repairable with the aforementioned gelcoat paste and its not a very hard DIY job. You could minimize the chances of it happening again by using a backing plate behind that pad-eye.
- Those connectors at the base of your mast... I can't tell if they are corroded or that's just a bunch a sloppy applied goop, or a combination of both. As long as your nav-lights and other mast accessories that those wires feed are working, and you have no leaks its no a show stopper. They can be replaced in the future, clean the area up and use butyl tape as the bedding compound instead of goop. I like Scan-strut thru-decks... very well built. The stainless ones are pricey but worth it, while they also make plastic versions of the same.
- The heating tube is old and dirty... take it off and clean it up. If the material is brittle or tearing, just replace it. Its just for moving air, not a hard thing to fix. I don't know what the other heater issue, probably need a professional to diagnose it if it is non-functioning.
- The plumbing in the bathroom... Not sure why what appears to be a Forespar Marelon fitting has a metal handle, maybe they replaced it, or its just really old? Mine are probably 30 years old and still have plastic handles. If it opens and closes without any issue its probably not going to sink you. The outside vertigree can be cleaned up. When you are out of the water the valve can be taken apart, inspected, cleaned, and lubed, seals replaced... It can potentially remain functional, or you may want to consider a new fitting if you find otherwise.
- The wiring running through the plumbing area... it dos appear to be the correct marine grade pre-tinned wire, probably Ancor... Its just not a very neat install job. This is fixable with some patience and zip-ties.

Your biggest issue is those motor mounts. They are rusted bad enough to need a service and it appears the polymer or rubber vibration isolators are gone. This isn't an easy DIY job if you don't know what you are doing. The motor has to be completely disconnected from everything so it can be lifted up. You don't have to remove it from the boat, just lift it up enough to work on the mounts. Still, if you don't have the experience or tools to do this yourself it can be pretty expensive to have someone else do it.

I wouldn't tell you not to get a new survey... A first hand inspection could find many more things that we can't see from pictures.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Given the fact that you already have the how to look at a boat and do your own survey post, the pictures you posted, other than the motor mount and the wiring are not issues. A little gelcoat repair goes a long way.

The larger issues you MUST address are, as gunni said, the motor mount (where the hell is the water coming from? a broken seal on a raw water pump would do that kind of thing) and the fact that it is a Volvo motor. They are good engines, but the prices for replacement parts are prohibitive and hard to find (as reported here and elsewhere). If I were you, I'd do some internet sleuthing on Volvo marine engines and read away.

I forget from your earlier post what experience you have as a boater, so maybe a link back to there would help.

If you're brand new to this size boat and its systems, and have little experience, you could be in for big headaches.

If you're a knowledgeable DIYer it could be a lot of fun, but depends on what's really going a behind the scenes, and how stuff works.

None of us, NONE, no one, will ever suggest that you don't need a survey, even on a new boat. A four year old survey tells you essentially nothing, unless they kept a meticulous maintenance record. The pictures belie that the did, but I've been proven wrong many times.

Only YOU can make that decision.

485 engine hours - what year is the boat?

Good luck.

 

[Gunni]

The wiring is fouled on the head diverter valve and running willy-nilly so you can disregard the survey comments about "adequately loomed and chocked". It might have been, but it isn't. That kind of sloppy wiring work is the sign of someone who did not know what they were doing, or was taking short cuts. Marine wiring has to be done very precisely, or you will doing it again (or paying someone to do it again).

Check the credentials of your surveyor:
NAMS
Http://www.nams-cms.org
SAMS
Http://www.marinesurvey.org

You could also first retain the services of ABYC cert'ed marine professionals (who are not surveyors); an engine mechanic to check the engine and drive system, and a marine electrician to examine the boat electricals and related systems. They go through their areas of specialty and provide you with an assessment and list of concerns. You then present that to a qualified surveyor...or you make the decision that you have enough information to walk away without further pursuit ( or a survey)

Stay clear headed about this thing and make sure you know what you are getting into. Make an informed decision and resist the rush to buy.

 

[Davidasailor26]

One other consideration on the survey - was the 2012 survey for purchase or just insurance? If it was just for insurance purposes, it may not have been as rigorous as what you'd want. In any case things can change in 4 years - that's certainly enough time for water to intrude at deck fittings for example - so I'm with the crew that wouldn't say not to get a survey. On a 35K purchase I'd say $800 is cheap insurance.

As for the wiring, I agree with the others that it certainly doesn't look professional, and likely not adequate, but is easy enough to fix. My only concern would be if it's an indicator of other hidden surprises, but a 1985 boat without any surprises is just unlikely to begin with.

 

[GregorLuv]

One other consideration on the survey - was the 2012 survey for purchase or just insurance? If it was just for insurance purposes, it may not have been as rigorous as what you'd want. In any case things can change in 4 years - that's certainly enough time for water to intrude at deck fittings for example - so I'm with the crew that wouldn't say not to get a survey. On a 35K purchase I'd say $800 is cheap insurance.

As for the wiring, I agree with the others that it certainly doesn't look professional, and likely not adequate, but is easy enough to fix. My only concern would be if it's an indicator of other hidden surprises, but a 1985 boat without any surprises is just unlikely to begin with.

I really do love you guys on this forum! So, I found out that the survey was done by someone not certified by SAMS, NMS, or USSA. Apparently you are not required to be registered with them to do surveys and the person who did this survey has been doing surveys for decades. Still, why not pay $800 to a guy that is actually registered if you can help it.

The survey was done (given the above) at the request of the owner to determine the value at that time.

Best part is I found someone on NMS SAMS and USSA that can do the survey for $16/ft,.

 

[GregorLuv]

The wiring is fouled on the head diverter valve and running willy-nilly so you can disregard the survey comments about "adequately loomed and chocked". It might have been, but it isn't. That kind of sloppy wiring work is the sign of someone who did not know what they were doing, or was taking short cuts. Marine wiring has to be done very precisely, or you will doing it again (or paying someone to do it again).

Check the credentials of your surveyor:
NAMS
Http://www.nams-cms.org
SAMS
Http://www.marinesurvey.org

You could also first retain the services of ABYC cert'ed marine professionals (who are not surveyors); an engine mechanic to check the engine and drive system, and a marine electrician to examine the boat electricals and related systems. They go through their areas of specialty and provide you with an assessment and list of concerns. You then present that to a qualified surveyor...or you make the decision that you have enough information to walk away without further pursuit ( or a survey)

Stay clear headed about this thing and make sure you know what you are getting into. Make an informed decision and resist the rush to buy.

Great info! Thank You -- I did just that; won't be rushing, I can wait 3-weeks until the certified marine surveyor is available. Already sent pictures off to an engine/drive system specialist in town for a quote and scope of the issue. Now I have to find a marine electrician for the plumbing side.

 

[GregorLuv]

Your biggest issue is those motor mounts. They are rusted bad enough to need a service and it appears the polymer or rubber vibration isolators are gone. This isn't an easy DIY job if you don't know what you are doing. The motor has to be completely disconnected from everything so it can be lifted up. You don't have to remove it from the boat, just lift it up enough to work on the mounts. Still, if you don't have the experience or tools to do this yourself it can be pretty expensive to have someone else do it.

Agreed -- and this is what I am having a local look at to give me a quote on what the cost for repair is. Was told on the phone they will need to sand blast it before remounting but what I really need to know is, 'what caused it,' because that could be a hidden defect.

 

[Benny17441]

Surveys are a snapshot of a date in time. A four year old survey is basically useless unless accompanied by a recent updated report. In any instance you may need one to get insurance so I would go ahead and have one done pre-purchase.

 

[NiceBeny]

having a boat will end up costing you money one way or another, take your time and spend the money wisely, good luck

 

[GregorLuv]

So here is what I got back from the mechanic: "Corrosion looks to be caused by a bonding issue and i would that should be solved by running an 8 gauge wire to you hull zinc if you have one the corrosion looks too extensive to save the mount a new one is roughly $110 and 1.5 hrs to remove and install so close to $300 the bonding system work would be another 2hrs at $100 per hour"

 

[Gunni]

I have never seen a Beneteau with a bonding system. And seen no "hull zinc". You will have a shaft zinc and perhaps a prop zinc, none suitable for bonding. The engine mounts do not make contact with seawater. But Volvo engines are raw water cooled, so there should be engine anodes ("zincs") that may be missing or eaten. This situation suggests addition unseen corrosion.

Sounds like your mechanic is used to working on steel hulled commercial vessels, they commonly employ bonding. Did he run the engine? Did he inspect the engine zincs?

All those engine mounts need to be replaced, and you should expect that the drive shaft will require alignment.

Do you have a sailboat auxiliary engine specialist available?

 

[Stu Jackson]

Was told on the phone they will need to sand blast it before remounting but what I really need to know is, 'what caused it,' because that could be a hidden defect.

Gregor,

gunni's right again. This advice sounds very, very suspicious. Sand Blasting what? They need to be replaced, that's all, and you're right about finding the cause.

Not all Volvo's are raw water cooled. Maybe all Volvo's in your boat were, but I don't know. Find out what kind of cooling it has.

Bonding also sounds suspicious.

Beware, be very, very aware.

Good luck.

 

[GregorLuv]

Gregor,

gunni's right again. This advice sounds very, very suspicious. Sand Blasting what? They need to be replaced, that's all, and you're right about finding the cause.

Not all Volvo's are raw water cooled. Maybe all Volvo's in your boat were, but I don't know. Find out what kind of cooling it has.

Bonding also sounds suspicious.

Beware, be very, very aware.

Good luck.

Great advice again, made me go and find two other mechanics to get a quote. Waiting on quotes for prices here is a better answer from one of the next two:

"Yes, there should be zincs in the heat exchanger, on the shaft, and on the hull.
If the bilge water got that high then it would explain the corrosion on the mounts or if sea water ran over them."

Interestingly enough I saw an engine picture of this boat from 2013 and did not see any corrosion at all on those mounting plates which means it all happened in the last 3 years, right now without getting the boat out of the water or having a technician go out I am thinking the zinc was never replaced on the unit -- will keep you guys posted as I get the price quote(s) should be fun at $100/hr of labor for service.

Unfortunately suppliers in Alaska are limited in comparison to the lower 48 so its easy to get proverbially shafted if you don't do your own research into things.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Unfortunately suppliers in Alaska are limited in comparison to the lower 48 so its easy to get proverbially shafted if you don't do your own research into things.

Understood, and glad we could help. Changing engine or HX zincs should be something you can do if you know which end of a screwdriver or ratchet set to use. You're gonna have to learn this stuff if you do buy the boat. We do understand your limited resources given where you are.

Good luck, again.

Keep comin' back, for support and answers.

 

[GregorLuv]

So wanted to explore a different angle. The previous owners stated that the battery on the boat had been dead for a while. Could the corrosion be a result of the dead battery? What I am being told by the volvo specialist is that I should try to clean this up first (wood blocks at the bottom, lift it off, and redo the mount) before taking the next step which he feels might be 8 hours of labor at $125/hr.

I presently do not have the knowledge base to know how the electric charge from a battery may or may not corrode metal but if you think that is a feasible explanation for the corrosion in the absence of sea-water on the mounts then what would i research to read up more about this phenomenon?

 

[Gunni]

research "galvanic corrosion" and look for references to boats. It is the propensity of one metal to share electrons with a less galvanically "noble" metal. The electron flow is facilitated by an electrolyte (water, and even more so - seawater).