Battery question

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J

jviss

Yes and no

I enjoy this discussion, but I know to many it may seem like beating a dead horse.

To John, it's really not that complicated. Take a look at the Car and Deep Cycle Battery FAQ at http"//www.batteryfaq.org. A superb resource.

To Stu, of course I don't have enough data to comment on why your alternator and shore power chargers charge at the same current, but as I mentioned earlier, it may be that you're not spinning the alternator fast enough to generate max current into your load.

To Maine, I don't think you can just "tweak" a regulator to perform better in bulk; certainly not mine. But, I do know that some of them are programmable, albeit with an obscure programming interface, but I don't recall if bulk current is one of the parameters.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,348
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
More Input, new ideas

jviss, thanks.

The alternator and shorepower chargers on our boat just happen to be the same because the alternator is 100A and the shorepower is 75A from our Freedom 15 combo inverter/charger. 75 and 100 are close, with the acceptance rate of 50A on the house bank, so I hope that clarifies your question.

I've had some serious rethinking involved in this interesting subject. I recommend you read the link for more detailed discussions over at our C34 Message Board. You're welcome to join us as a guest or sign up there, too, your input would be very welcome - Maine Sail joins us often.

Thanks again for your contributions to this discussion.
 
A

Anchor Down

Welcome to the Learning Curve

AlamedaJohn,

Be patient: it' a whole education unto itself. It took me a while to aborb (no pun intended) the basics and relationships, and I'm still a beginner.

If I can offer a simple summary:

1) The two factory batteries are likely very small. They will not store many AMP HOURS of power (amp hours is a term you should become familiar with: it describes your storage capacity & consumption rates). You may even have Group 24 batteries installed, which are very small indeed. Installing larger replacements is your first good bang-for-buck. Group 27s, Group 31s if you have the space to just drop them in, is easy to do. When installing, combine both new batteries into one large house bank by connecting them together and using just one of the two circuits you have on your panel (instead of one battery connected to 1 on your master switch and the other to 2, you will use just circuit 1). One large house bank is more efficient for several reasons, than two small banks of equal total capacity.

(Other posters: I'm leaving out discussions of 6v batteries for simplicity's sake and because I sense from his post that John seems to want to be able to step up from day sailing, not cross an ocean).

2) Buy DEEP CYCLE batteries: the lead plates are thicker, they are designed to discharge deeply (50% is customary) and still provide many "cycles" of discharge/recharging, which is the opposite of a starting battery, which is designed to provide a lot of current for very short periods, only discharging a little bit. You want deep-cycle batteries for your HOUSE BANK. A third type, the "multi-purpose" battery, is a compromise design between these two performance profiles. It does nothing well: avoid it.

Deep-cycle batteries will start your relatively small diesel engine without any problems. You can add a dedicated starting battery later if you want, and use a BATTERY COMBINER to let it charge from the house bank, and connect it to circuit B on your master switch, to easily combine the power of both banks for that emergency start that will be required someday.

3) Learn the difference between combining batteries in SERIES, or in PARALLEL. Connecting the two house bank batteries in series (positive post to negative post) will double the voltage and fry a lot of your 12v equipment, start a fire, etc. You want to connect them in parallel (positive to positive, negative to negative), which will retain 12v and double your amp-hour capacity safely. Read up on this in detail: my description is just sketchy overview.

4) Charging the house bank efficiently is next. The alternator you have, if it is the factory installation, has one-stage, internal REGULATOR, designed for automotive application, where long running times are assumed. You will shorten your charging times greatly if you replace it (the regulator) with a multi-stage SMART REGULATOR, which lets the alternator charge at higher voltages the more deeply your house bank is depleted (the more deeply the bank is depleted. With three charging levels, instead of trickle-trickle-trickle, the smart regulator gives you FLOOD, then STREAM, then TRICKLE.

5) A BATTERY MONITOR, which has been mentioned below, will allow you to precisely monitor the state of charge/discharge of your system and protect your investment by using it more efficiently. It replaces a lot of guesswork with data.

6) If your shore power battery charger is very old, replacing it with something up-to-date, which will take better care of your new batteries, is a good idea.

7) A bigger alternator has been suggested, and is valuable, but I put it last in my bang-for-buck list. I think money is better spent on the regulator to maximize the performance of the alternator you have. A bigger alternator is still a good thing, though.

Consider this simply a list of topics to become educated about. Other very knowledgeable posters here will disagree with my application, but these components are the major players.

Fair Winds,
Jeff
 
J

John

What I presently have

Jeff,

I presently have two relatively new (about six to nine months old) AGM batteries - the best that Waste Marine sells either 200 or 245 amp hours - I forget which. (I have a friend who used to work there and he got me a great deal.) I don't know how this affects your recommendations or those of anybody else. So, if I added a battery, my thinking was to use it for the starter and reserve these two for the house batteries. Does this sound right?

From what I'm reading here, it sounds like my best bet would be to start with an upgraded alternator and regulator and/or a battery monitor and then consider adding another battery. (By the way, the boat is ten years old and I assume it has the original, stock alternator on the motor, which is a Universal M35-B.)
 
A

Anchor Down

Right First Steps

John,

There are others on this board who are much more knoledgeable than I. I wanted to get the thread back to useable answers to your question, because it seemed you were being ignored. That to say that my opinion is not the last word on the subject, and I would love someone to come in and correct me (while at the same time giving you useable information).

That being said, yes, if you have 400+ amp hours of capacity, you're good as far as storage. Running them together as one bank is now considered the best practice.

Yes, next steps are the alternator/regulator. Then the batter monitor and sophisticated shore charger, specifically designed to handle AGM chemistry. AGMs can accept higher charging loads, but are more finicky about how the charger is maintaining them. Using old, simple shore chargers is a sure way to diminish their productivity. Make sure you get something compatible with AGM chemistry. Same for the regulator.

If money is no problem, the dedicated starting battery & battery combiner can be put in now. But you'll be fine starting off the house bank (that energy will be replaced in the first couple of minutes of engine running time) and install that part of the system later. Nice to have, but not absolutely necessary.

Discovering you have 400 amp hours of storage capacity moves the higher-output alternator up on my priority list. The common wisdom is that a battery bank can accept up to 25% of its own storage capacity, as measured in amps, when deeply discharged: ergo, a 400 amp-hr battery bank can make use of a 100-amp alternator during the bulk charging stage (when the batteries are low and the regulator lets the alternator pour it on). You may have a stock 55-amp alternator, which will be running at maximum output for extended periods when charging a deeply-discharged bank, and they can get very hot/burn out. Those automotive alts were never intended to take the steroids of the multi-stage regulator. AGMs can accept a charging rate a bit higher than 25%, an additional reason the beefier alt makes sense for you.

You're seeing that choosing AGM storage batteries now determines much of your additional planning: they can accept higher charging loads, but are more finicky about how the charger is maintaining them. Using old, simple shore chargers is a sure way to diminish their productivity. Make sure you get a shore chager that can care for AGM chemistry. Same for the regulator.

You've sorted through the forest and found the trees you want. Get hewing.

You may be able to beat WMs pricing by ordering online. Defender.com is one place, and there are others.

Please, Stu, and others, chime in here.

Fair Winds,
Jeff
 
J

John

And yet more questions

I was at the boat today and checked out what sort of charger we have. We have a Xantrax 20+ charger. One thing I noticed is that none of the indicator lights light up when my AC shore power is connected. Is this because the batteries are fully charged, or is there a possible problem with the charger? From reading the manual on-line, it sounds as if a problem could be in the internal fuses of the charger. What I was thinking was running some accessories (radar, etc.) for awhile, and then seeing what happens with these lights. Does this sound correct?

Also, should the charge switch be set on bulk/absorption/float or bulk/absorption? (There is also a 13.5 v option, but from reading the manual I gather that this is only for when the batteries are disconnected and I'm running some accessories.)

As far as the batteries - up until now, I've always used battery #1 for the house battery. This means it gets a lot more use. Checking on the volt meter on my electric panel, it registers about 12.6 v for #2, but only about 12.1 or 12.2 for #1. The batteries are the same type and same age. What I'm planning is to use #2 now for the house battery. Does this sound right?
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,348
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Some replies

1. Check the internal fuses. If the lights are out it could mean it's just not being required to charge, so disconnecting from shorepower and running some loads might get it to kick in.

2. If you keep your boat plugged in all the time, then use b/a/f

3. You should be switching off banks, not using just one. Use #1 for a day, then #2 the next, chargingin between. Double house banks should be alternated on a regular basis.
 
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