We just bought a 1990 Hunter Vision 32. It is equiped w. a battery charger that works when plugged into shore power. Problem is, when starting the engine, we turn the battery selector switch to'all', and it often has a hard time getting enough juice to crank it. Is it the way we do the switch, or is it simply the batteries? Have no relevant manual. Thanks
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Justin - O'day Owner's Web
Multimeter
The first thing I would want to do is hit the batteries with a multimeter to see how charged they are getting from the charger. Check the output from the charger. Then check the output on the battery terminals immediately after removing the charger, and after several hours to see how they are holding a charge. Let us know what you find with that and we'll help you figure out where to go next. Justin - O'day Owner's Web
The first thing I would want to do is hit the batteries with a multimeter to see how charged they are getting from the charger. Check the output from the charger. Then check the output on the battery terminals immediately after removing the charger, and after several hours to see how they are holding a charge. Let us know what you find with that and we'll help you figure out where to go next. Justin - O'day Owner's Web
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Ron Dague
Battery Banks
Try starting the engine with the switch turned to one bank. Then with it on the other bank, then on both. Normally, one bank will be designatd as a starter bank, the other your house batteries. This allows you to run lights, autopilot, etc., and still always have enough power to start the motor. Of course, you have to pay attention to which battery you are drawing current from, and which one you are charging. If there is a weak/shorted battery in either bank, using "both" can actually give you less power than using the good bank alone. That is because the bad battery will draw power from the good batteries. Of course, it would be a good idea to stick your head down where the batteries are and try and figure out what type and how many are wired to each bank on your switch. I don't know whether a Vision-32 has a voltmeter, but if so, or with a hand-held meter, you could get an idea if all of your batteries are weak, or just one.
Try starting the engine with the switch turned to one bank. Then with it on the other bank, then on both. Normally, one bank will be designatd as a starter bank, the other your house batteries. This allows you to run lights, autopilot, etc., and still always have enough power to start the motor. Of course, you have to pay attention to which battery you are drawing current from, and which one you are charging. If there is a weak/shorted battery in either bank, using "both" can actually give you less power than using the good bank alone. That is because the bad battery will draw power from the good batteries. Of course, it would be a good idea to stick your head down where the batteries are and try and figure out what type and how many are wired to each bank on your switch. I don't know whether a Vision-32 has a voltmeter, but if so, or with a hand-held meter, you could get an idea if all of your batteries are weak, or just one.
Could be weak batteries.
Frank: Normally the batteries are wired so that battery one is the starting battery and the two is the housekeeping bank. It does not make any difference, but this is something you should find out. Use one battery for the starting and the other for house keeping. When you are running the engine or are plugged into shore power you would be on "both". When you anchor you would probably put the selector on "2" for the house keeping position. When you start your engine away from shore power, your battery one would be reserved for starting. You can also start in the both position. Now assuming battery position1 = Starting Battery and battery position 2 = house keeping. If you cannot easily start the engine in either one/two or both then you probably have battery problems. NOTE: You should not switch the battery selector while the engine is running unless you have a switch with a built in alternator disconnect. I just went through this on this past weekend. If you can get a load tester you can test the batteries. Otherwise you may need to take them to a shop and have them test them for you. Be sure to label all your cables/wires if you pull the batteries.
Frank: Normally the batteries are wired so that battery one is the starting battery and the two is the housekeeping bank. It does not make any difference, but this is something you should find out. Use one battery for the starting and the other for house keeping. When you are running the engine or are plugged into shore power you would be on "both". When you anchor you would probably put the selector on "2" for the house keeping position. When you start your engine away from shore power, your battery one would be reserved for starting. You can also start in the both position. Now assuming battery position1 = Starting Battery and battery position 2 = house keeping. If you cannot easily start the engine in either one/two or both then you probably have battery problems. NOTE: You should not switch the battery selector while the engine is running unless you have a switch with a built in alternator disconnect. I just went through this on this past weekend. If you can get a load tester you can test the batteries. Otherwise you may need to take them to a shop and have them test them for you. Be sure to label all your cables/wires if you pull the batteries.
Frank & Ron:
The multi meter will give you an idea if the batteries are charging or not but really does not give you a good idea of the amps that they are holding. This is exactly what happened to my batteries recently. The batteries were charged up to 12.8+ volts and 13.1+ volts. As soon as I hit the starter there was not enough to turn over the engine. My batteries were still strong enough to start the engine if it was decompressed or run the lights but that was about it.
The multi meter will give you an idea if the batteries are charging or not but really does not give you a good idea of the amps that they are holding. This is exactly what happened to my batteries recently. The batteries were charged up to 12.8+ volts and 13.1+ volts. As soon as I hit the starter there was not enough to turn over the engine. My batteries were still strong enough to start the engine if it was decompressed or run the lights but that was about it.
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Ron Dague
Steve's Right Again
No a multi-meter or built in volt meter will not tell the cranking capacity (read amps)of the battery. It would tell you if a cell is shorted in one of the batteries. If you find one battery with lower voltage than the others, it's a good bet that one is shot. But, if all of the voltages test fine, 12.7 to 13.5 volts, Steve is right. It is time to lift those buggers out and take them in and have them tested. I normally try (read: hope for) the easy less expensive problems first, and the voltmeter might tell you what you want to know. And, here's some more bad news: Even if only one battery is bad, you should replace all of the batteries in that bank. An older, weaker battery will drag down your new battery. I highly recommend Nigel Calder's book on boat mechanical and electrical systems for further help.
No a multi-meter or built in volt meter will not tell the cranking capacity (read amps)of the battery. It would tell you if a cell is shorted in one of the batteries. If you find one battery with lower voltage than the others, it's a good bet that one is shot. But, if all of the voltages test fine, 12.7 to 13.5 volts, Steve is right. It is time to lift those buggers out and take them in and have them tested. I normally try (read: hope for) the easy less expensive problems first, and the voltmeter might tell you what you want to know. And, here's some more bad news: Even if only one battery is bad, you should replace all of the batteries in that bank. An older, weaker battery will drag down your new battery. I highly recommend Nigel Calder's book on boat mechanical and electrical systems for further help.
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Eric Lorgus
Battery cables, connections, and starters motors
Frank: I'm no expert, but here's what I've learned from trial and error. The precise voltage level of a battery indicates its state-of-charge. I think 12.6 indicates 100%, 12.3 50%, and 12.0 is 25% (this is from memory; my maintenance manuals are on the boat). While measuring the voltage with a volt or multimeter will tell you state-of-charge, you need to do a load-test to determine the battery's condition. As batteries get older, their internal chemistry breaks down, and their amp capacity deterioates. The info from Steve and the others about starting batteries vs. house batteries is important, too, as there are two kinds of batteries: cranking, and deep-cycle. Cranking are like car batteries; they're designed for short bursts of many amps. Deep cycles are designed to discharge more gradually. That's why the distinction between battery banks. Running your lights all night on your cranking battery can ruin it, because it's not designed for deep discharges. Starting problems, however, can be due to other causes besides battery condition. Cables are a frequent culprit for starting problems. These should be tested for voltage drop between the battery and the starter motor. A drop of more than .5 volts indicates a cable problem (either the cable itself has deterioated or the connections are poor). Lastly, starter motors will eventually wear out, and when they do, they can begin to consume enormous amounts of amps. I had an elusive electrical problem in my car last year, where the almost new battery kept losing its charge, even though the alternator and cables tested fine. The problem was eventually isolated to a badly worn starter motor, that was using so much juice to crank, that on short trips, the alternator wasn't able to recharge it. You should peruse the archives also. There have been a lot of posts about batteries and charging systems.
Frank: I'm no expert, but here's what I've learned from trial and error. The precise voltage level of a battery indicates its state-of-charge. I think 12.6 indicates 100%, 12.3 50%, and 12.0 is 25% (this is from memory; my maintenance manuals are on the boat). While measuring the voltage with a volt or multimeter will tell you state-of-charge, you need to do a load-test to determine the battery's condition. As batteries get older, their internal chemistry breaks down, and their amp capacity deterioates. The info from Steve and the others about starting batteries vs. house batteries is important, too, as there are two kinds of batteries: cranking, and deep-cycle. Cranking are like car batteries; they're designed for short bursts of many amps. Deep cycles are designed to discharge more gradually. That's why the distinction between battery banks. Running your lights all night on your cranking battery can ruin it, because it's not designed for deep discharges. Starting problems, however, can be due to other causes besides battery condition. Cables are a frequent culprit for starting problems. These should be tested for voltage drop between the battery and the starter motor. A drop of more than .5 volts indicates a cable problem (either the cable itself has deterioated or the connections are poor). Lastly, starter motors will eventually wear out, and when they do, they can begin to consume enormous amounts of amps. I had an elusive electrical problem in my car last year, where the almost new battery kept losing its charge, even though the alternator and cables tested fine. The problem was eventually isolated to a badly worn starter motor, that was using so much juice to crank, that on short trips, the alternator wasn't able to recharge it. You should peruse the archives also. There have been a lot of posts about batteries and charging systems.
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Jim Cook
Decompressed Engine
Steve wrote "My batteries were still strong enough to start the engine if it was decompressed..." I am new to diesel. My Volvo MD7A manual shows a decompression lever, but I do not know for what it is used. I also have a "starter crank handle" but no information on how to use it. Could anyone give me some help, please? Thanks, JimC
Steve wrote "My batteries were still strong enough to start the engine if it was decompressed..." I am new to diesel. My Volvo MD7A manual shows a decompression lever, but I do not know for what it is used. I also have a "starter crank handle" but no information on how to use it. Could anyone give me some help, please? Thanks, JimC
Cookin' on the diesel
Jim: The Yanmar has two levers on the top of the engine. If you battery is weak you can push the lever so the engine will turn over very fast (without compression). When the engine is turning fast someone can just pull the levers back and voila the engine will start. This is the same principal that is used for hand cranking the engine. WARNING: Be very careful on hand cranking the engine. I think if you are not extremely careful you could break an arm, hand etc.
Jim: The Yanmar has two levers on the top of the engine. If you battery is weak you can push the lever so the engine will turn over very fast (without compression). When the engine is turning fast someone can just pull the levers back and voila the engine will start. This is the same principal that is used for hand cranking the engine. WARNING: Be very careful on hand cranking the engine. I think if you are not extremely careful you could break an arm, hand etc.
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Bryan C.
Compression levers and batteries
Jim C. -- the "de"compression level does just what it sounds: It provides an escape for the cylinder compression. As you may or may not know, diesels operate at significantly higher compression than auto engines; in fact it is the compression that causes the ignition, not a spark plug (which diesels do not have). For similar sized engines, it takes more power to crank the engine because of the higher compression. If your battery is too weak to crank, by releasing the compression levers, the engine will turn much easier. It probably will not start with the levers open, however, for lack of compression (never tried it). As Steve said, what you need to do with a weak battery (first combine all batteries in parallel by setting the switch to all) is open the levers to get the motor spinning, then close the levers so the compression can start the engine. Regarding starting the engine: I agree with the conventional wisdom that your batteries may be starting to fade. However, it depends on your battery type. You may have two (small) "deep cycle" batteries, one for each bank. My boat was set up that way when I bought it. Deep cycle batteries have fewer, thicker plates which can survive multiple discharges (which kills automotive/starting batteries), but the trade off is that they cannot produce as much current flow (amperage). If you have two smallish deep discharge batteries, what is happenign is that they individually cannot produce enough amps to crank the engine, particluarly if the batteries are getting long in the tooth. When I got my boat, I bought a "marine" starting battery at Walmart for $40 bucks, which has plenty of amps to crank the engine, and combined the two deep discharge batteries into the house bank, which gives me double the storage capacity. I use the starting battery really as an emergency battery, and keep it topped off. I use my house bank for all day to day chores, including starting (combined the two deep discharge batteries produce enough amps to crank the motor). BTW -- be careful about switching your battery selector switch while the engine is running. Depending on how your system is wired, if could isolate (disconnect) the alternator from a battery while the engine is running, you can blow the alternator. If your charging sources (alternator) are hard wired to a battery (usually the house bank), you are protected, but if the charging sources are wired to the selector switch, and you isolate the alternator (e.g. by switching the battery selector to off), you can zap the alternator. Some battery switches have a "field disconnect" function to avoid this from happening. If in doubt don't switch the switch while your engine is running.
Jim C. -- the "de"compression level does just what it sounds: It provides an escape for the cylinder compression. As you may or may not know, diesels operate at significantly higher compression than auto engines; in fact it is the compression that causes the ignition, not a spark plug (which diesels do not have). For similar sized engines, it takes more power to crank the engine because of the higher compression. If your battery is too weak to crank, by releasing the compression levers, the engine will turn much easier. It probably will not start with the levers open, however, for lack of compression (never tried it). As Steve said, what you need to do with a weak battery (first combine all batteries in parallel by setting the switch to all) is open the levers to get the motor spinning, then close the levers so the compression can start the engine. Regarding starting the engine: I agree with the conventional wisdom that your batteries may be starting to fade. However, it depends on your battery type. You may have two (small) "deep cycle" batteries, one for each bank. My boat was set up that way when I bought it. Deep cycle batteries have fewer, thicker plates which can survive multiple discharges (which kills automotive/starting batteries), but the trade off is that they cannot produce as much current flow (amperage). If you have two smallish deep discharge batteries, what is happenign is that they individually cannot produce enough amps to crank the engine, particluarly if the batteries are getting long in the tooth. When I got my boat, I bought a "marine" starting battery at Walmart for $40 bucks, which has plenty of amps to crank the engine, and combined the two deep discharge batteries into the house bank, which gives me double the storage capacity. I use the starting battery really as an emergency battery, and keep it topped off. I use my house bank for all day to day chores, including starting (combined the two deep discharge batteries produce enough amps to crank the motor). BTW -- be careful about switching your battery selector switch while the engine is running. Depending on how your system is wired, if could isolate (disconnect) the alternator from a battery while the engine is running, you can blow the alternator. If your charging sources (alternator) are hard wired to a battery (usually the house bank), you are protected, but if the charging sources are wired to the selector switch, and you isolate the alternator (e.g. by switching the battery selector to off), you can zap the alternator. Some battery switches have a "field disconnect" function to avoid this from happening. If in doubt don't switch the switch while your engine is running.
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Guest
"Field Disconnect" test
To test for "field disconnect" to this WHEN THE ENGINE IS NOT RUNNING. Turn on a couple of lights. Now switch the battery selector switch to each of the settings. If the lights flicker BETWEEN settings (1,2,Both/All) then you have a field disconnect. It is while the disconnect occurs that alternator damage occurs when the engine is running. Most boats nowadays are wired without the disconnect. So switching while the engine is running will be OK. Comments?
To test for "field disconnect" to this WHEN THE ENGINE IS NOT RUNNING. Turn on a couple of lights. Now switch the battery selector switch to each of the settings. If the lights flicker BETWEEN settings (1,2,Both/All) then you have a field disconnect. It is while the disconnect occurs that alternator damage occurs when the engine is running. Most boats nowadays are wired without the disconnect. So switching while the engine is running will be OK. Comments?
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Paul Sealock
modern switches
Present day battery switches are equipped with "make before break" switches. This means that the switch engages the All position before disconnecting the One position. It also works for All to Two switching and back the other way. The only thing you don't want to do is shut the switch OFF while the engine is running! That will cause you to go shopping for new rectifier diodes or even a new alternator.
Present day battery switches are equipped with "make before break" switches. This means that the switch engages the All position before disconnecting the One position. It also works for All to Two switching and back the other way. The only thing you don't want to do is shut the switch OFF while the engine is running! That will cause you to go shopping for new rectifier diodes or even a new alternator.
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Ron Doescher
Some great responses!
All the stuff written was excellent advise -- most informative. I would add to the comment about checking cables that the starter cable connections can also be at fault. Watch for clean, tight connections with no breakage of cable strands at the crimped connectors, etc. A bad connection/cable can introduce extra line resistance which really cuts delivered energy to the starter. Energy (needed to be converted from electrical to mechanical in the starter to turn the engine) is Power x Time; Power is Volts x Current at the device (starter); any resistance (in the starter, wiring, switches, connectors, diodes, battery, etc.) cuts down on that delivered energy & is consumed by converting electrical energy to mostly thermal energy (heat). So, after attempting to crank that engine for a short cycle, get down there and feel the wires & connections to see if anything is heating up; that might be a clue as to your trouble spot. An excessively hot wire might indicate, among other things, that the starter circuit is sized incorrectly, too. Consult the various handbooks for the approved ratings. Good luck --Ron
All the stuff written was excellent advise -- most informative. I would add to the comment about checking cables that the starter cable connections can also be at fault. Watch for clean, tight connections with no breakage of cable strands at the crimped connectors, etc. A bad connection/cable can introduce extra line resistance which really cuts delivered energy to the starter. Energy (needed to be converted from electrical to mechanical in the starter to turn the engine) is Power x Time; Power is Volts x Current at the device (starter); any resistance (in the starter, wiring, switches, connectors, diodes, battery, etc.) cuts down on that delivered energy & is consumed by converting electrical energy to mostly thermal energy (heat). So, after attempting to crank that engine for a short cycle, get down there and feel the wires & connections to see if anything is heating up; that might be a clue as to your trouble spot. An excessively hot wire might indicate, among other things, that the starter circuit is sized incorrectly, too. Consult the various handbooks for the approved ratings. Good luck --Ron
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TronJockey
"Field Disconnect test Is NOT
Discribed is a test to determine if your switch is a make before break or a break before make type. Field disconnect is a whole different animal.
Discribed is a test to determine if your switch is a make before break or a break before make type. Field disconnect is a whole different animal.
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Paul Akers
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mike i
Battery Testing
Battery testing seems to be a mystery to sailors! The only way I know to reliably test a battery is load testing. Apply a load of 1/2 the CCA rating for 15 seconds, read voltage, should not drop below 9.5 volts for a 12v battery, and battery should recover 95% of the initial charge when load is removed. If the battery is a flooded type, a hydrometer is best along with the load test.
Battery testing seems to be a mystery to sailors! The only way I know to reliably test a battery is load testing. Apply a load of 1/2 the CCA rating for 15 seconds, read voltage, should not drop below 9.5 volts for a 12v battery, and battery should recover 95% of the initial charge when load is removed. If the battery is a flooded type, a hydrometer is best along with the load test.
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Tron Jockey
OK a field disconnect is
a field disconnect cuts the power to the alternator field winding. When this happens there is no more magnetic field around the armature and the alternator shuts off. No juice. Can't overvoltage even when the alternator output doesn't have a battery on it. Well, in theory anyway. Trouble is that sometimes the field can remain magnetized for seconds or even minutes and the alternator may still output. So you can still get a damaging spike. You can buy a surge protector device and put it on your alternator. This will clamp the output to a reasonable level. If your A/B/Both switch has a field cut off circuit (many of them do) it will have a separate pair of wires (not high amperage) which run to the alternator field connection and/or voltage regulator. This cut off circuit runs in parallel to the high current A/B switch and is only physically, not electrically connected to the A/B circuit. Testing this circuit (engine off, please) requires looking for voltage (and lack of it) on the alternator field terminal when switching the A/B switch from "off" to any other position.
a field disconnect cuts the power to the alternator field winding. When this happens there is no more magnetic field around the armature and the alternator shuts off. No juice. Can't overvoltage even when the alternator output doesn't have a battery on it. Well, in theory anyway. Trouble is that sometimes the field can remain magnetized for seconds or even minutes and the alternator may still output. So you can still get a damaging spike. You can buy a surge protector device and put it on your alternator. This will clamp the output to a reasonable level. If your A/B/Both switch has a field cut off circuit (many of them do) it will have a separate pair of wires (not high amperage) which run to the alternator field connection and/or voltage regulator. This cut off circuit runs in parallel to the high current A/B switch and is only physically, not electrically connected to the A/B circuit. Testing this circuit (engine off, please) requires looking for voltage (and lack of it) on the alternator field terminal when switching the A/B switch from "off" to any other position.
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