When connected to shore power should the battery selector switch be set to both? How about while the motor is running and if anchoreh overnight?
Thanks,
Dan
Thanks,
Dan
Battery charging
- Thread starter cdkell
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When you are setting up your 12 volt system, the way people are doing it these days is to have two banks. One bank is a "reserve bank" and the other bank is the normal battery bank. Some people call one bank the house bank and the other is called a starting bank but most people refer to the smaller bank as the auxiliary bank now.
Not knowing how your Catalina 30 is set up I will describe mine and my procedures.
A few years ago I upgraded battery bank to to have 2 deep cycle group 27 batteries. They fit in the battery area that is made at the factory in the Catalina MKii. My auxiliary battery, or bank 1, is just a group 24 sealed battery that is a starting battery. Bank 1 is not located under the quaterberth where I glassed in a battery platform for 1 battery.
Normally at anchor I keep the battery selector on Bank 2. When at the dock the same. When I start the boat I will sometimes start it on All and allow it to run for a while on All before switching to Bank 2 to completely charge Bank to.
Bank 2, the two group 27s that are ran in parallel, are monitored by a Link 10 by Xantrex. I highly recommend installing one of these to monitor your main battery bank as it is peace of mind!
Not knowing how your Catalina 30 is set up I will describe mine and my procedures.
A few years ago I upgraded battery bank to to have 2 deep cycle group 27 batteries. They fit in the battery area that is made at the factory in the Catalina MKii. My auxiliary battery, or bank 1, is just a group 24 sealed battery that is a starting battery. Bank 1 is not located under the quaterberth where I glassed in a battery platform for 1 battery.
Normally at anchor I keep the battery selector on Bank 2. When at the dock the same. When I start the boat I will sometimes start it on All and allow it to run for a while on All before switching to Bank 2 to completely charge Bank to.
Bank 2, the two group 27s that are ran in parallel, are monitored by a Link 10 by Xantrex. I highly recommend installing one of these to monitor your main battery bank as it is peace of mind!
It all depends on how it's wired.
Reply #11 explains how and why the 1-2-B switch was most likely wired from the factory. The following reply #12 shows the new arrangement as described above.
The basic and important change is that the alternator output is moved from the switch directly to the house bank.
See: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.0.html
As far as shorepower, you will have to trace the wires from the charger to see where they go. Either to the battery banks or to the switch and if to the switch, where. If they run to the 1 & 2 positions on the switch, it's electrically just like connecting to the batteries, just the other end of the wire.
Most people design their electrical systems to leave the switch off when they leave their boats, even with the charger on shorepower.
Reply #11 explains how and why the 1-2-B switch was most likely wired from the factory. The following reply #12 shows the new arrangement as described above.
The basic and important change is that the alternator output is moved from the switch directly to the house bank.
See: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.0.html
As far as shorepower, you will have to trace the wires from the charger to see where they go. Either to the battery banks or to the switch and if to the switch, where. If they run to the 1 & 2 positions on the switch, it's electrically just like connecting to the batteries, just the other end of the wire.
Most people design their electrical systems to leave the switch off when they leave their boats, even with the charger on shorepower.
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Stu....I am not calling it a starting batter anymore! LOL. You got me into the habit of calling it the auxiliary battery!
cd.....I really suggest doing this battery upgrade. It is a cheap upgrade as upgrades go and it really gives you a lot of power. I have been on anchor for a few days and didn't get below 90%. I do not have refrigeration but I do run a small inverter to power my laptop from time to time. I also tend to run the 12V fans, lights, and anchor lights a lot. I will only run the engine for 15-20 minutes to heat the water when I am at anchor for a while.
If you do this upgrade definitely add the Xantrex Link 10 to this system. It is well worth the price when it comes to peace of mind. You will always know where your electric system is!
cd.....I really suggest doing this battery upgrade. It is a cheap upgrade as upgrades go and it really gives you a lot of power. I have been on anchor for a few days and didn't get below 90%. I do not have refrigeration but I do run a small inverter to power my laptop from time to time. I also tend to run the 12V fans, lights, and anchor lights a lot. I will only run the engine for 15-20 minutes to heat the water when I am at anchor for a while.
If you do this upgrade definitely add the Xantrex Link 10 to this system. It is well worth the price when it comes to peace of mind. You will always know where your electric system is!
Good on you! Actually you came up with yet another name we haven't used!!!
Reserve
Emergency
Backup
and now
Auxiliary
Tremendous!!!
cd: the Link 10 or any of the other battery monitors are a very wise investment. Battery acceptance, the amount of amps the batteries will accept when charging, tapers off when they get fuller. It's easier to withdraw than to deposit, just like my bank account! Get a monitor, too.
I have a variation on this theme.Good on you! Actually you came up with yet another name we haven't used!!!
Reserve
Emergency
Backup
and now
Auxiliary
Tremendous!!!
cd: the Link 10 or any of the other battery monitors are a very wise investment. Battery acceptance, the amount of amps the batteries will accept when charging, tapers off when they get fuller. It's easier to withdraw than to deposit, just like my bank account! Get a monitor, too.
ALL loads except the starter use the main bank of 2-4 group 27's (I use 4 when I'm in cruise mode and only 2 when in day sailing/ race mode).
The Blue Sea switch is labeled "Off" "On" and "Combine". Off opens both the starter battery and the house bank.
I also use an automatic charging relay between the banks.
The alternator charges only the starting battery until it reaches the set voltage, then the house bank is paralleled and charged. This assures that I always have a hot starting battery.
The Xantrex shorepower charger is wired to the house bank only. When the house bank is up, the combiner parallels the starting battery.
Since the starter battery should never be deeply discharged, it is only a few minutes at most before the house bank gets combined when using the engine to charge batteries. This is the best "set it and forget it" system I've come across. The wire run from the Alternator to the starting battery terminal on the starter is short so there is very little voltage drop; all charging current uses the battery cables from the starter to the switch. The engine compartment has no "always hot" wiring.
Another nice feature is isolation of the house circuits from starting loads automatically.
Kit here: Blue Sea #329
A Link 10 monitoring the house bank completes the system.
The starting Group 24 just died after 9 years, the two 27's that are permanent are going on 7 years. I lost one of the extra 27's after 8 years, and other 9 year old battery is showing measurable reduced capacity.
I used to go through batteries every 2-3 years so it seems like the upgrade has paid for itself many times over.
Moody, that's one way
although I dislike the dual circuit switch because it only combines a good bank with a dead bank. If someone already has a 1-2-B switch, it's better to keep it than spend the $$ on a dual circuit switch. The 1-2-B switch is much more versatile, since it allows you to do something the dual circuit can't: use the reserve bank for LIMITED house loads (like your VHF) if your house bank, for any reason, dies.
And the alternator should be wired to the house bank. Wiring it to the reserve bank first makes little sense because the house bank usually needs the most charge, the reserve = your start = bank, as you say, is almost always fully charged, so why run the all amperage through the ACR. You have to think about how to charge a depleted house bank, not keeping a full one charged.
The ACR or any other voltage sensitive relay, closes on sensing an input charging voltage, not the "start" bank voltage.
I know you're successfully cruising around Mexico with your kit, but I think you may want to rethink your alternator output location.
You noted: Another nice feature is isolation of the house circuits from starting loads automatically. I do completely agree that that is the one (only) positive feature of the approach you mention, and is the only one I can think of related to anything about that switch.
And in thinking about it some more, I am quite sure that by installing heavier gauge wiring for electronics the momentary voltage dip when starting the engine can be eliminated from the electronics circuits, making the dual circuit switch completely useless compared to the 1-2-B switch.
See this discussion we had over on the C310 Forum recently, same subject: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=104505
although I dislike the dual circuit switch because it only combines a good bank with a dead bank. If someone already has a 1-2-B switch, it's better to keep it than spend the $$ on a dual circuit switch. The 1-2-B switch is much more versatile, since it allows you to do something the dual circuit can't: use the reserve bank for LIMITED house loads (like your VHF) if your house bank, for any reason, dies.
And the alternator should be wired to the house bank. Wiring it to the reserve bank first makes little sense because the house bank usually needs the most charge, the reserve = your start = bank, as you say, is almost always fully charged, so why run the all amperage through the ACR. You have to think about how to charge a depleted house bank, not keeping a full one charged.
The ACR or any other voltage sensitive relay, closes on sensing an input charging voltage, not the "start" bank voltage.
I know you're successfully cruising around Mexico with your kit, but I think you may want to rethink your alternator output location.
You noted: Another nice feature is isolation of the house circuits from starting loads automatically. I do completely agree that that is the one (only) positive feature of the approach you mention, and is the only one I can think of related to anything about that switch.
And in thinking about it some more, I am quite sure that by installing heavier gauge wiring for electronics the momentary voltage dip when starting the engine can be eliminated from the electronics circuits, making the dual circuit switch completely useless compared to the 1-2-B switch.
See this discussion we had over on the C310 Forum recently, same subject: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=104505
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Good points as usual Stu.
One of the reasons I set it up this way is the very limited alternator output with my Atomic 4 ... I have the largest alternator I could find that was a "bolt on". I actually tested charging rates with the Alt output going to the house bank while isolated and with the output going to the starter terminal and through the ACR and found no difference in the charge rate to the house bank. Any voltage drop across the ACR was more than compensated by the very short run of the output wire.
The limiting factor on my boat is the internal regulator on the alternator. Over an hour of charging the average rate is about 30A ... the second hour is lower. MUCH better than the stock 35A alternator though. After I knew how much time it took to charge, I went through the boat to limit my 12v budget to 1-1.5 hours per day of engine time. If I decide to increase the 12v budget, or spend more time on the hook, I'll spring for an external regulator and/or add solar/wind generation to the boat.
My thought is that if I can always start the engine, I will have power to the panel. I've never thought that being able to run limited house loads off the starting battery would be useful. That is a very good idea. I think I'll add an emergency switch that will feed the GPS and VHF off the start battery. Thanks for mentioning it!
I learned my lesson about battery care when old batteries and forgetting to switch from Both to the house bank left me with an engine I could not start, and a dead VHF ... aground for 36 hours in the delta. :cry:
I've put all my eggs in one basket ... but I now keep a close watch on that basket! When I rewired the boat, I minimized the runs and made the system as reliable as I was able. I'm in the 50-80 Ah/day range and can cut that to under 30 Ah/day if I need to limit charging time to under a gallon a day. Atomic 4's are thirsty!
I tend to look for a shoreside hook-up about every 3-4 days anyway for laundry, ice and food, so I start each cycle with the batteries topped up. The only time I worry about batteries is if I'm planning to be out for a week or ten days ... thats when I add the two extra 27s so I have a 400+ Ah house bank. With 1 hour a day charging and a lavish 80 Ah/day draw the net loss is 50 Ah/day or 4 days to 50% ... I found that I can do better than that with very little effort. Like most people down here, I found that I motor sail more often than I thought and normal engine usage and only 20 gallons of fuel requiring frequent visits to gas docks makes the system work quite well. I've found that a even a week on the hook is about 5 days more than I like. If I could learn to relax and enjoy not being underway more, I would have to re-think the system.
A bigger boat, a thrifty diesel, more fuel, wind + solar ... a stewardess or two ...As always, know your boat and your planned usage. Configure systems that work for you, know the pros and cons of what you decide on and inspect/monitor/maintain your system. What works for someone else may or may not work for you.
This is one of the strengths of this forum ... 1000's of years of collective experience! Even though I've been at this for over 40 years, Stu brought up something I had not considered. Thanks again!
Randy
Randy, thanks for your thoughtful reply
One of the things that you can do is stay out those 5 nights with your 400 ah bank without any undue stress - really!
I figured out the "Law of Steadily Diminishing Returns" a few years ago and also found it in Calder's "Boatowner's Manual." If you start out with a full house bank, and, as you say do some motor sailing every other day, and knowing your daily ah draw, you can usually go a week without needing to plug in even with your tapering charger.
That's because while you're usually putting in LESS than you're taking out every day, starting with the full 400 ah bank will give you five days before you end up winding down to the 50% 200 ah level.
We did this in 2004 on a trip to the California Delta with our OEM 55 A Motorola alternator, although we did have an Auto Mac voltage (misnomer) regulator, which increased our tapering alternator output from 10 to 25 amps on initial startup before tapering.
Maine Sail has also made the point that between the 50% and 80-85% range of battery charging the acceptance rate of the bank will allow a tapering internally regulated alternator to perform pretty much as well as an externally regulated three stage regulator.
Plug back in once a week or so to completely refill and head out yet again!
Food for thought.
Oh, and there's something about flight attendants...
One of the things that you can do is stay out those 5 nights with your 400 ah bank without any undue stress - really!
I figured out the "Law of Steadily Diminishing Returns" a few years ago and also found it in Calder's "Boatowner's Manual." If you start out with a full house bank, and, as you say do some motor sailing every other day, and knowing your daily ah draw, you can usually go a week without needing to plug in even with your tapering charger.
That's because while you're usually putting in LESS than you're taking out every day, starting with the full 400 ah bank will give you five days before you end up winding down to the 50% 200 ah level.
We did this in 2004 on a trip to the California Delta with our OEM 55 A Motorola alternator, although we did have an Auto Mac voltage (misnomer) regulator, which increased our tapering alternator output from 10 to 25 amps on initial startup before tapering.
Maine Sail has also made the point that between the 50% and 80-85% range of battery charging the acceptance rate of the bank will allow a tapering internally regulated alternator to perform pretty much as well as an externally regulated three stage regulator.
Plug back in once a week or so to completely refill and head out yet again!
Food for thought.
Oh, and there's something about flight attendants...
If it help any, I've attached a diagram of what I did last year with the help of Stu. All my charging (alt. and shore) go directly to the house bank and I use an Xantrex echo charger to charge the "reserve". I was able to fit 2 group 31's I got from Defender under the starboard settee giving me 260 ah for the house bank. I was extremely happy with this set up.
Randy, I'm very happy to see you keeping your boat and have enjoyed reading all the great contributions you've posted here! see you changed your aviator too.
Bob
. I was able to fit 2 group 31's I got from Defender under the starboard settee giving me 260 ah for the house bank. I was extremely happy with this set up.Randy, I'm very happy to see you keeping your boat and have enjoyed reading all the great contributions you've posted here! see you changed your aviator too.
Bob
The old one starting to scare me ...
If I can swipe it, I may change to the photo on pg89 of the January Latitude 38 ... I finally made the funny papers ...
R
Way cool hat.
Not only that, but you pulled a rare treat: two photos in one layout!
Congratulations.
Hmm, we seems to have da same color beard, matey! Arrgh...
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