Battery Charging with Heart Interface

[Jon4399]

I am a new owner of a Hunter 37.5 Legend, which came equipped with a Heart Interface. I installed three new batteries (2 125A house and 1 115A starting battery). The Heart unit manual indicates that it replaces the battery selector switch and automatically selects which battery bank needs a charge. So the battery selector switch has remained on 2.
I recently installed a Delco 100A 1 wire alternator on the boat. All went well until our first test sail. After a long motoring stretch, it seems the battery voltage was declining from 12.6 to around 12.2. While we were anchored that night, we discussed things and the battery selector switch came up. So the next morning I switched the selector switch to ALL and the voltage immediately went to 13.4 and the alternator belt began wearing seiously. (The pulley was not correct). I replaced the belt, returned the battery switch to 2 and came home.

What should the selector switch be set on during charging, and what does the Heart Interface do? I think I'd like to get rid of the thing and at least know where the juice is going. - dazed and confused.

 

[captainpat]

I don't know if the Heart "replaces" the battery switch. I had a link 2000 but I believe it works basically the same way. It will be selective in the charging demands by sensing the state of charge of each bank and providing the bulk of the charge to the bank that requires it, normally the house bank. It then adjusts its charge rate periodically as the state of the battery's charge changes. Therefore, if I remember correctly, the battery switch should be on "both". BTW; I believe the Heart system needs to be told what the battery capacity is. You changed to new batteries, probably with different Amp Hour ratings. So you have to update that information in the program mode of the Heart. The same would hold true if you should change battery chemistry, say from lead acid to AGM or Gel. Read the programing section of the manual.

 

[Ed Schenck]

My boat is all "Heart", hah. I have a Link 2000 and a Freedom 20 inverter/charger. And still I have no clue what a Heart Interface is. I do know that nothing in my Heart products will switch charging from one bank to another. I do have something called a combiner that does that however. What does your manual say on the cover? Maybe some product that I have not heard of.

 

[seadaddler]

2000 Inverter/charger

My inverter/charger chargers my 4-6 -volt battery bank and has a seperate hookup to echo charge for my start battery and as far as I know it won't change to charging 2 different banks auto and you need to change the selector switch to which bank you want to charge.
I did have 2 different banks setup from the Hunter factory but changed to one larger bank and added a start battery.
Nick

 

[Rick D]

My Heart Freedom 2500 charges only the two battery banks and the start battery is charged through a combiner relay which was standard on the 40.5's. Yours may also be. Look for a box about 3X6 inches in the engine compartment which is where mine is.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Uhm, while these responses may be helpful, what you really need to do for us to help you is tell us more about what you have. "Heart Interface" could well be just the label on the control box somewhere in your nav station that has nine buttons and a LCD screen in the middle with lights on the bottom when you're plugged into shorepower and push the charge button. If you do, this is what the guys have been saying is a "Link 2000." It's what I have and is a great piece of equipment. It is a battery monitor, and does NOT direct where your alternator or shorepower goes.

Do you have a Freedom inverter/charger, too?

In order for us to help you, you need to tell us more. If you don't know, go follow some wires around your boat. Sketching a wiring diagram would be helpful, too.

Find out where the alternator output goes. It's the wire that comes out of the back of the alternator.

Usually, that alternator output (AO) goes to the C post of the 1-2-B switch. The switch position determines where the charge from the alternator goes, so that the switch position, when you're running your engine, will determine which bank gets charged.

It could also go to your house bank if your PO was a smart skipper. We just don't know.

Flipping the switch and keeping your fingers crossed about what might happen isn't half as good as tracing some wires and figuring out what you really have.

So, help us to help you, and let us know what you really have. A couple of pictures would also really help.

If you have what I think you have (just guessin' here) then you have some very good equipment and simply need to learn how to use it.

Look forward to you coming back to us so we can help.

 

[Benny17441]

I think you need to verify your wiring connections to the switch. Something is not right. The battery (#1) that was off line is the one than when brought on line energized the alternator while #2 which should have been the one handling the loads did nothing. The problem with the belt could be as result of the upgrade to 100 amps alternator; they do generate heavy drag when energized and usually require heavy duty belts or even double belts. There has been a recent shift away from large alternators as they exceed the amount of charge that a normal battery bank can accept negating the sought benefits but leaving the engine power robbing and belt problems. I try to never perform upgrades on a boat new to me until I am confident that what is there is working properly. That way if something goes afoul after the upgrade is a little easier to nail down the problem. All I can tell you is to back to basics, and verify all wirings.

 

[captainpat]

Benny makes a valid point about the engine being robbed of rpm's when a hi-output alternator is replenishing a discharged battery, the deeper the discharge the more the rpm drain. However, the hi-output is very valuable when swinging on the hook for extended periods of time. As they say, every advantage has it disadvantages. One solution is to install a manual toggle or rocker by-pass switch which will disengage the charge function of the alternator without harming any of the diods.

 

[Ed Schenck]

Benny, I don't think wiring is a problem. He was watching the Link 2000 voltage drop on the house. But he was charging #2, likely the start bat. When he switched to 'all' the alternator saw the depleted house bank and had to work extra hard. The problem I think is just thinking the Link would compensate.

But maybe there is something new at Xantrex that I am unfamiliar with.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Benny makes a valid point about the engine being robbed of rpm's when a hi-output alternator is replenishing a discharged battery, the deeper the discharge the more the rpm drain. However, the hi-output is very valuable when swinging on the hook for extended periods of time. As they say, every advantage has it disadvantages. One solution is to install a manual toggle or rocker by-pass switch which will disengage the charge function of the alternator without harming any of the diods.

Small engine mode on an external regulator does just that: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4454.msg27149.html#msg27149

Larger alternators usually work better than smaller ones, especially for a depleted house bank, since they don't have to work so hard and should last longer. You have to size your electrical SYSTEM to handle the loads, based on your house bank size and the acceptance of the bank.

 

[Jon4399]

Sorry its taken so long to respond, but could not get to the boat until the weekend. The Heart unit is called "The Pathmaker". It says it provides user adjustable setpoints, operator indicators, and a local control switch. It has a large relay which connects battery bank 1 and 2, (2 ga. wiring to battery positives). It has low voltage disconnect, connect voltage, and high voltage disconnect voltage set points.

By the way, according to the diagrams, it shows the start battery as bank 2, the house bank as 1, and the position of the selector switch should always be on 2(start bank). I believe when the start bank voltage rises above the default 13.3 volts, it connects both banks together for charging.

Does anyone have experience with this unit?

As to the belt problem, I am aware that the pulley on the alternator was not matched to the belt. The pulley was 10mm wide and the belt is 13mm (1'2"). The belt rode way out of the groove, and only contacted a third of the belt sides. While there was little or no drag on the belt things were fine. When the alternator was called on for more, it fried the belt. I have a correct pulley on order. Hopefully tomorrow it will get here. I still have to check the wiring from the starter to the selector switch. The alternator output is currently wired to the starter lug with 4ga. cable. Hopes this helps.

 

[Ed Schenck]

As I had assumed, a Heart device I had no knowledge of. The wiring of the alternator to the starter is factory. I am in the process of wiring directly to the house bank. From your description of the Heart device it should not matter. It is working like my combiner, provides a charging path as soon as one bank is at a level. Your alternator was charging the start battery through the battery switch. But over night did you leave it on position #2? Then you never used the house bank but ran down the start battery? That doesn't answer why 'ALL' loaded the alternator. Should have happened for #2 also.

I think everything is working. The house bank and start battery were fully charged when you anchored. You stayed on the smaller start battery and ran it down over night.

 

[Jon4399]

Well, I drew out the schematic of the system. The alternator output is wired to the starter, which is wired directly to the engine start battery. The Heart interface is a battery combiner, which links the two banks when it detect a charging voltage. I believe it has failed. So now the question is how to replace it.

If I install a charging relay, such as the Blue Seas SI relay, it will do basically the same thing. But after being at anchor the house bank will be low, but the engine bank will be charged. Won't the alternator "see" the voltage in the starting bank and stop charging? And if it continues to charge the house bank, won't that overcharge the engine bank? It has been suggested that I run a new #2 cable from the alternator to the house bank. (I'm not looking forward to that!) Is there a 12v to 12 charger to charge the engine bank from the house bank?

 

[Maine Sail]

Well, I drew out the schematic of the system. The alternator output is wired to the starter, which is wired directly to the engine start battery.

You will be emuch better served to wire the alt B+ output directly to the house bank.

The Heart interface is a battery combiner, which links the two banks when it detect a charging voltage. I believe it has failed. So now the question is how to replace it.

The "Pathmaker" was an early battery combiner or voltage sensitive relay. They were more overly complicated than they needed to be and left lots of room for installer and user error. They were also wired incorrectly, despite what the manufacturer showed, and this often caused them to fail due to "relay cycling"..

The manufacturer showed the alternator going directly to the start battery. This wiring can be devastating to a VSR if not "timer protected"... Seeing as the start battery is at or darn near full 100% of the time the alternator has zero trouble bringing the voltage to "combine". The Pathmaker combines and the current flows to to the house bank. Because the house bank is low and quite large it sucks the voltage back below the "combine" voltage and the relay cycles on/off, on/off, on/off until it can finally remain "latched".

By sending all charge sources to the house bank first the VSR will ONLY combine when the house bank voltage has been increased enough to do so. This will 100% prevent relay cycling. Some newer VSR's use a timer so that any combine event is not less than a pre-set time. This can help bring the house voltage up but the relays can still cycle on off multiple times before they remain "latched".

If I install a charging relay, such as the Blue Seas SI relay, it will do basically the same thing.

Yes they do "basically" the same thing but they are better designed, no user adjustments, and have timer protection built in. Blue Seas however strongly suggests wiring charge sources to the house bank first if that bank is "larger" than the start bank.

But after being at anchor the house bank will be low, but the engine bank will be charged. Won't the alternator "see" the voltage in the starting bank and stop charging?

No. Alternators do not "stop" charging, they only limit voltage. When the banks combine you have ONE voltage, not two. If the house bank was low the "system" voltage will also be low and the alternator will go into bulk or absorption depending upon the over all SOC.

And if it continues to charge the house bank, won't that overcharge the engine bank?

This can't happen with a combiner, that is part of its simplistic beauty. It is a complete myth that drives me nuts. It gets perpetuated by folks who don't understand how they work or how an equilibrium state is created amongst battery banks when they are combined. To over charge one battery would mean the other battery is also being over charged. When combined the voltage becomes ONE across banks and the batteries reach an equal voltage. This means you can't "overcharge" one battery bank when combined with another.

It has been suggested that I run a new #2 cable from the alternator to the house bank. (I'm not looking forward to that!)

This is a good idea but depending upon your bank, alternator capability and distance round trip you may not need #2 or you may need more than #2. best to size for minimum voltage drop and not just shoot from the hip.

Is there a 12v to 12 charger to charge the engine bank from the house bank?

Yes it is called an Echo Charger. They do a similar thing that the ACR will do. I install lots of both. There is nothing wrong with an ACR or an Echo Charger. The ACR combines the Echo keeps them "isolated" but has a charging limit to the start bank of 15A...

 

[Stu Jackson]

Maine Sail is right. Here are some guidelines for Battery Wiring with a 1-2-B switch. You would do well to run your alternator output to your house bank and get an echo charger for your reserve bank.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6604.0.html

 

[Jon4399]

I understand and like the basic concepts shown here. I plan to run the #2 cable (I got that gauge from the Blue Seas website which showed that for a 100A alternator you should use #2 cable -- my alternator is 105A) from the alternator to the house bank, and use an Echo Charger for the starting battery. But what I don't understand is the suggestion to wire the starter to the B post of the 1-2-B switch. If I do that, the electrical panel and electronics will feel the starter surge. It seems to me if I leave the starter cable wired to the starter positive directly, and leave the 1-2 B switch on the house bank, then the electronics will not be affected by starting. If the starter battery is bad, I can put the switch in B and backflow the current from the house bank to the starter battery and the starter. No??

 

[onecoolair]

Have the heart unit set up so that you are in charge. I had a neighbor who had the system on his caliber and lots of problems. Examples....Neighbor comes down to boat only to find batteries dead. But plugged into shore-power. Because he left the battery switch to the wrong bank. Battery charger will not charge batteries. That's because the charger runs off the inverter in fact everything runs off inverter. So if batteries are dead how can charger do its job?? He had to run to the Wall-mart and by new battery charger and connect it straight to battery and wait over night till the battery had enough juice to run inverter. Another example on weekend cruise another friend on his H450 was having problems it seems his heart/inverter/charger on a 100degree day that it was in charge. Since everything went through it say air conditioning freezer anything needing 120volt. Even though he was plugged in even try-ed generator same problem. It would not let him run even one of the a/c units sometimes it would let the freezer kick on but not long enough to do any good. Kept thinking it needed to charge the batteries first to run invert but inverter could not pull enough juice off the batteries to run what he really needed. And that was air conditioning.



He asked me how I was setup I told him I used the KISS principle.

Example...Shore-power to generator selector Switch. All 120v Electronics,t.vs etc. run off UPS computer battery backup saves sensitive electronics from brown outs. Gives me at least 20 to 30 minutes to manually plug UPS into inverter or outlet for switching to generator. I am the one in charge!!! Both house banks and engine starting battery are isolated from each other. The generator has it own small starter battery, If it has issue's I have a red key switch that feeds to house bank, for emergency start only. Make sure it is isolated you do not want to have dueling alternators. It does not matter what main selector switch is set to, the pro-tech4 charger runs off only shore power or directly off generator. It can charge all three banks at the same time. I even placed a selector switch next to engine to shut power off completely to starter battery, Can also bring house bank into play if for some reason starter battery has issues. Alternator goes directly to isolator which feeds starter battery then to same new selector switch that feeds directly to main house bank. Installed remote start emergency button next to yanmar. And finally ran new properly sized wires and fixed that defective Yanmar wiring harness starting problem.

And now finally since I don't know everything. Here is a concern I have now. Alternator has internal regulator. It is still wired to the starter factory harness as per factory. Extra wire from alt to Isolator. #1 post goes directly to back of new selector switch #1 Start Battery. #2 post goes directly to #2 post of new selector switch. Question I know batteries are now isolated. But I am worried about over charging starter battery but not so much house because it always has some sort of load freezer etc. What would be the best way to regulate voltage to starter battery so it does not get fried. I know if I disconnect #2 of isolator from house then regulator should know when to time out. Butt??? Anybody have an idea? Open for criticism and ideas.
thanks RR

 

[Buck420]

Mainsail,

Thank you for a clear, concise, knowledgeable, explanation of charging, wiring, charge combiners, etc.
Now, my question, ...
I have a Heart 2000 inverter/charger w/ a Link 2000R.
I have noticed that on extremely hot days, when I come in from sailing, and plug into shore power, the battery charger does not put amps into the batteries.
However, after a period of time, as "things" cool down, it resumes it's normal charging of the batteries.
Is there a built in "thermal cut off" relay in the Heart 2000 charger, or is something else going on ??