basic tacking question

[abruzzi]

Two weekends ago I finally got my Mac 25 into the water for a test sail. The forecast on windfinder.com showed winds 10-12 knots from the south, so it looked to be a good day.

My friend and I went out, both novice sailors, and had a great time...until the wind started exceeding the forecast by a factor of two. By the time we were pulling the boat out of the water it was blowing 25 knots, and gusting to 35 knots.

We ended motoring back to the launch ramp because it was at the south end of the lake, we were at the north end, and the wind was blowing from the south. Initially we tried tacking into the wind, and here is the question. When we were on a port tack, everything seemed to work the way I understood--we made forward progress--not fast--but progress, into the wind. However, every time we tacked across the wind to a starboard tack, things looked normal, sail trim was the same, and the sails were full, but we were moving backwards towards the north beach.

We sailed in circles four or five times, and it was the same every time--port tack good, starboard tack bad. It's a lake so I don't normally think of current, but is it possible that the wind was creating a current in the water that I just wasn't able to move fast enough through? There were waves that were beginning to white cap. If thats the explanation, what do you do? Just hang it up and wait for the current to drop (or motor like we did)? Or was I doing something obvious wrong?

I will say it was a little scary--I've been on a sailboat once before, and Bruce, never. My mainsail has no reefs so we eventually decided to drop sails and motor after the reverse gust of wind (180 degrees to the prevailing wind) blew us over to the point that the bumper strip on the starboard side was briefly dipped in the water.

thanks,
Geof

 

[MrBill_FLL]

too many variables to have any helpful comment.... but you should be able to make headway on either tack. or a good sailor would.

#1 you need to be able to reduce sail.

-normally there isn't current in a lake, but there are wind vectors created by land masses, that could favor one tack over another.

what year boat? rudder all the way down? centerboard all the way down?

you must have been way over powered, so you were either on your ear, or luffing like crazy...

regardless, get some coaching, or lessons. or, enlist a more seasoned sailor for your next sail.

as you know those conditions 30+ knots, are a lot for even seasoned sailors.

 

[timebandit]

Sometimes sailors try to pinch the wind to much, so you might try to fall off the wind to reach retrim the sails to straighten up the boat and enjoy the ride.

My 25 has the motor mounted on the port side and if your does maybe when on the stbd tack and the motor down it was creating some sort of drag that when on the port tack it was out of the water.

If your boom is and sail controls are stock and your goose neck looks like the one in the picture you can reef by loosening the thumb screw and rolling the main on the boom to reef and also to store the sail, be sure to tighten the screw up after.

 

[arknoah]

I would also wonder about how much sail you had up as well. In fact, I would have lowered sail completely at 30-ish knots just to be sure and used just the iron wind, but then again, I'm kinda a wimp -- at least for now.

 

[doehunter]

I would say, wait for a day with more moderate winds and go try it again.
It might take you some time to get comfortable with how your boat works.
Big thing is you need to be able to reef. I think the above suggestion about rolling up the mainsail on the boom is the way the 25's were set up. You might want to practice that when it's easy to do so you have your act together when it gets rough.
Tacking into the wind you should be able to do equally well either direction. I can't think of any reason why the boat wouldn't do it, except maybe too much sail.
Hang in there, I bet it will make more sense after you've been out a few times.
Jim

 

[abruzzi]

believe me, we had no intention of going out in 30mph winds, and it was quite scary. Thanks for the suggestions, I'll keep them in mind next time I go out. I'm trying to find a more experienced sailor to go out with us, though if it were 10mph winds, I'd feel fine experimenting more.

I do have that boom style--I take it the sail just rolls around it? I was planning on replacing the main with a reefable one, but its good to know I have that option.

Geof

 

[timebandit]

Just like a window shade but be sure to tighten the thumb screw.

believe me, we had no intention of going out in 30mph winds, and it was quite scary. Thanks for the suggestions, I'll keep them in mind next time I go out. I'm trying to find a more experienced sailor to go out with us, though if it were 10mph winds, I'd feel fine experimenting more.

I do have that boom style--I take it the sail just rolls around it? I was planning on replacing the main with a reefable one, but its good to know I have that option.

Geof

 

[Knuttle]

Initially we tried tacking into the wind, and here is the question. When we were on a port tack, everything seemed to work the way I understood--we made forward progress--not fast--but progress, into the wind. However, every time we tacked across the wind to a starboard tack, things looked normal, sail trim was the same, and the sails were full, but we were moving backwards towards the north beach.
/quote]

I assume that when you say moved backwards, you mean when you tacked you ended up closer to where you started than where you wanted to be.

The wind you feel on the boat is the apparent wind and is a combination of the actual wind and the wind created by the boat. As mentioned else where in this thread, the wind is influenced by the shape of the shore and thing that are on the shore. Combining all of this if you think your tack will be on a 45degree course, the combination of these, may shift the wind so that when you are on a proper angle to the wind for max performance you may actually be sailing on a course of 90 degrees. The net results is you are actually loosing ground against your target.

When tacking it is not going as far as you can bringing the boat to a new course. In tacking, some time you may need to point a little into the wind as the boat is moving faster, and falling off the wind as the wind dies down. In deciding when to tack you must consider how far you are moving in the direction you want. Some times this means making a series of short tacks, some time it means making equal tacks, and sometime it mean making a long tack and a quite short tack.

Some time when "tacking" on a lake and depending on the shore, you may make a long tack, a short tack, run before the wind, and when the wind shifts back, run on another long tack and a couple of short tacks.

The point is don't decide you are going to tack, decide where you are going and adjust the sails to get there.

I have sailed for 40 years and still do not like to sail in 30mph winds, however 30 mph steady winds are one thing, 30 mph winds that are gusting and shifting all around the compass are something entirely different.

I know I have not been clear as it is easier doing it than telling it; so get a good book on sailboat racing and sail trim, whether you want to recreational sail or race. it will help you understand the relationship between the wind and your boat.

 

[abruzzi]

the problem was I was actually moving backwards. We started 100 yards from the beach on the port tack and were able to make headway for a while. By the time we tacked we were maybe 1000 yards from the beach behind us. On the starboard tack we had full sails, and any further upwind and the sails started luffing, but ten or fifteen minutes of that, and we were 100 yards from the beach behind us again and we tacked and were able to make headway again. This happened several times before we gave up and dropped sails.

A couple of things:

- The main isn't in great condition and looks kind of baggy at the bottom, which probably makes it less efficient.

- perhaps I should have tried wider tacks as was suggested.

- I couldn't reef the main (though I didn't know about the roller boom.) I did after the first few attempts drop the jib, and try with just the main--I probably should have dropped the main, and tried the jib instead.

- I don't know how well tuned the standing rigging is because the winds picked up before we had a chance to play around with it.

Unfortunately, I wasn't tacking to tack, I did know where I was trying to get to and it was several miles directly upwind.

Lessons learned--I'll be getting a new main soon, and next time we go out we'll have an expert sailor with us.

Geof

 

[MrBill_FLL]

if you're too close hauled it could happen. or maybe the outhaul was not tight?

I have a windex, and would recommend it. do you have sail tell-tales?

telltails are cheaper and easier to install.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22xQCSHK4Yg
http://www.sailingusa.info/images/points of sail.gif
http://www.jasperandbailey.com/tech/news.html
also a healing indicator could help.

-after a while you don't need the visual controls because you have the 'feel' but in the beginning the are very helpful.

I'm sure you will figure it out.
GL!

 

[abruzzi]

Practice...

 

[Dan Hill]

Yes! Practice will do the trick. I taught myself in a mac 22 with roller boom main reefing and hanked on foresails. I would also suggest checking your rigging for proper tuning. A simple check is to use one of your halyards to check that your rig is centered by stretching it to a common point on starboard and then on port, they should be equal. Good luck practicing, that was some of my best AND scariest sails.

 

[Fred]

I have not had good success sailing my Mac25 with only one sail up. Better to reef both sails to keep the boat balanced. It is virtually impossible to tack with only one sail. I just bought a new mainsail so perhaps my experience will change.

 

[Hollyweirdos]

Check out the book, Fast track to sailing. I liked the way they explain things. I know how to sail but am always looking for how to do it better. They explain things so that you will gain a full understanding of how the aerodynamics of the sails work. It is on Amazon and kindle.

 

[Knuttle]

if you're too close hauled it could happen. or maybe the outhaul was not tight?

I agree. It sounds as if you did an excellent job of keeping the sail at the point that it appeared to be full, but was not creating enough lift to generate forward motion. As I understand what you did you would have been better off sailing 90 degrees (or greater) to the wind for a 1000 yards off of the beach, and then starting the tacks to your destination. You would brought the angle of the wind to a more favorable position to reach your destination.

Two other things.

One: Before you assume there is something defective about the boat, and spend a lot of money, learn to make the most out of what the boat has. (The previous owner sailed the boat and it got him where he wanted.) I am not saying that the sails do not need replaced, but make sure they are actually defective before you spend the money. I believe that someone with no, to minimal sailing experience would not be able to tell the difference between a boat with saggy sails and one with the best sails available.

Also unless the winds are 30 mph, put away the out board and learn to make the boat do what you want, and go in even the slightest wind. I have been in quasi races, against similar boats where I walked away from the other boat. In frustration the other guy fell back on what he knew how to use, his motor.

Two: Remember you can back the boat under sails. As you become more proficient, backing the boat under sails can really impress the fishermen and guys with the "1000" hp ski boats. If you launch at a narrow ramp, the skill can be very beneficial.

 

[Brad1968]

One thing to check is whether you were dragging the outboard or a swim ladder on one tack but not the other.

 

[Knuttle]

keel

One thing to check is whether you were dragging the outboard or a swim ladder on one tack but not the other.

One other thing that would not help when tackiing. Did you have the keel in the full down position. If not, you would have difficulty making headway in a decent wind especially when trying to tack close to the wind.

 

[doehunter]

I see things a little different.
1. I almost never take my motor out of the water because I put my gas tank in the motor well. So I always drag my motor. It doesn't affect the way the boat sails enough for me to notice. A ladder wouldn't either.
2. Your boat is symmetrical. That being said, It will sail the same on either tack.
It doesn't matter if your sails are old and worn out, or if you sail with the main only or jib only. It's symmetrical. (obviously all of that affects performance, but it would affect it in both directions)
The part where you said you were actually moving backwards, I might be unclear about. Assuming you mean the boat wasn't moving forward in the water and was being blown backwards, that tells me you didn't turn far enough when you did your tack.
The sails might have been far enough off wind to fill, but not enough to power the boat.
When I tack, I turn through the wind, and keep turning until I feel the boat accelerate again. It doesn't hurt to turn a little too far, and after you get settled in , bring it up higher until you find that point where it starts to lose speed, and then back off.
In fact, that's how I sail up wind. Since the wind here is constantly changing direction, I constantly make little changes in and out so I can feel the sweet spot, so to speak.
One thing I learned after I installed my GPS, is that I can't go up wind anywhere near as much as I always thought I was going. Judging from apparent wind alone fooled me.
Remember that when your moving forward, it makes it feel like you're going more up wind than you really are.
I bet there's nothing wrong with your boat that some more time on the water won't fix!
Keep it up.

 

[finding41]

Abruzzi to get some basic training with my boat I did this:
Here is a ad I placed on a local free classifieds web site (Kijiji). The title was: "Looking for some sailing instruction for my family"
I'm a new sailboat owner with a 1988 MacGregor 26 D. I sailed a bit as a teen (sunfish) but wasn't paying much attention to sail trim or wind. I mostly water skied. My wife grew up on a power boat.
I'm looking for someone that wants to crew and give some instruction on my boat. This might be a good opportunity for someone that hasn't sailed a Mac to give it a try. I have all the regulation safety equipment.
Feel free to give me a call or email.
I have had a good response to the add and have lined up 5 different people that want to come out. Two of them own Bayfields and the others have different sail boats as well. (I'm sure there are other sailors near you that would like to try one of "those trailer sailors" with out there friends knowing.) I'm not going to subject my family to any danger of strangers as the people slip there boats and a quick call to there marina will let me know what they are like. I will also be the only one going out with them the first time and sailing out of a local sailing club to get familiarized with the boat. You could always ask them to show you how to tie a specific knot to see if they actually have any experience.
Good luck.