Hunter were exploring over the last 5-6 years with various new designs of major system ( rigging,cockpit,keels)and components as well as minor ones (suspended kicken tray,continuos changing ports ,'open space' interior design,cockpit arch , gray nonskid) to mention just a few; It looks like they do that more than other builders , as well as short run of models (336,376)being replaced often by others.As an owner (parts) and eventually seller (price of discontinued model..), this later issue is not a beneficial one. Having so many of these changes in short period of time , some were more/less succesfull than others ,either on quality and practicality or market response ; often Hunter 'got the message' listened to their customers ,and changed again.. Later it seems , there is a trend back to 'middle of the road' systems in newer models ; more conventional and deeper keels -instead of big-wing low-draught ones , more of regular standard size ports instead of many big custom sized windows(often leaking..). I was wondering if the time will come to change the B.R. rig to a more conventional one. As a current owner I might feel bad ... However , how come that if this is such a good ALL AROUND idea , it didn't catch with ANY other serious builder of pleasure (oppose to racing) sailboats after so many years and probably thousands of backstaylees Hunters afloat?( and don't compare with Freedoms ,as these do SAIL similar to regular rigged ones) And how come , that along with 'downwind tacks' theory , many sailors do find themself in need to run before the wind or broad reaching , both not so well suited with these kind of Hunters? And isn't this high tension rigging in practice do cause earlier fatigue of shrouds , mast ,mast post( later models do address this issue..)not to mention extensive friction damage to mainsails? Is this heavily roached main that much needed for most of us , casual coastal or inshore Hunter sailors ( by self definition , look in owners directory) as to eliminate the backstay ? Since Hunter think mostly ( and rightfully so ) of the next buyer ( and masses of them..) more than current owner , I think that in just few years we might see a gradual return of a more conventional rig .And if I learned someting over the years about 'Hunter way' , some experts team already work silently on this in Alachua FL.. One might wonder, how present owners and prospective future upgraders ( frankly not the same point of view..) might view such a major change? , without starting a long contraversial debate on Hunter boats/rigging , just the (2-3..) bottom lines about optional future changes.. ( it might help to have some experience sailing a conventional rigged sailboat as well ..). I think these opinions might be of general interest to owners , as well as Hunter staff comments..
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Need square riggers back, fie on Yankee Clippers
Indeed, we lost the fins on cars, but not on keels. Progress is like that.
Indeed, we lost the fins on cars, but not on keels. Progress is like that.
New rig a bummer
After seeing the new Hunters at a recent boat show I have to say the B&R rig without the backstays didn't appeal to me at all. I am a current owner of a Hunter 34 that has an older B&R with backstay support. The limitations of the sail plan that the newer rig creates is a turn off. You cannot fly any foresail above a 110% jib due to the jib fairleads being mounted on the deck INSIDE of the shroud chainplates. I enjoy the challange of choosing the correct sail to fly for specific conditions and that includes flying an aysm spinnaker, which I would hesitate to fit onto one of these new rigs. How can there be anything but extreme weather helm with the oversized main and small foresail? It would seem that Hunter is more interested in appealing to the novice cruising sailor by limiting the variables that make the sport more challanging.
After seeing the new Hunters at a recent boat show I have to say the B&R rig without the backstays didn't appeal to me at all. I am a current owner of a Hunter 34 that has an older B&R with backstay support. The limitations of the sail plan that the newer rig creates is a turn off. You cannot fly any foresail above a 110% jib due to the jib fairleads being mounted on the deck INSIDE of the shroud chainplates. I enjoy the challange of choosing the correct sail to fly for specific conditions and that includes flying an aysm spinnaker, which I would hesitate to fit onto one of these new rigs. How can there be anything but extreme weather helm with the oversized main and small foresail? It would seem that Hunter is more interested in appealing to the novice cruising sailor by limiting the variables that make the sport more challanging.
Hunter rigs are good
Rob, the new rig, the Bergstrom and Ridder, allows the main sail to be bigger as a result of moving the mast forward in the boat. This makes a large headsail unnecessary. Removing the backstay allows there to be more sail area at the top of the roach creating a shape that is much more efficient. A large main is easier to handle than a large headsail.
Rob, the new rig, the Bergstrom and Ridder, allows the main sail to be bigger as a result of moving the mast forward in the boat. This makes a large headsail unnecessary. Removing the backstay allows there to be more sail area at the top of the roach creating a shape that is much more efficient. A large main is easier to handle than a large headsail.
Hunter rigs: More than 1 way to skin......
Rob, the new rig, the Bergstrom and Ridder, allows the main sail to be bigger as a result of moving the mast forward in the boat. This makes a large headsail unnecessary. Removing the backstay allows there to be more sail area at the top of the roach creating a shape that is much more efficient. A large main is easier to handle than a large headsail. The Bergstrom rig, is the earlier fractional rig with backstay,which, if yours is not a masthead rig,we both sail. The Bergstrom rig is an excellent rig as well, though the main is not as powerful and a larger headsail is necessary to balance the rig. On a B and R rig, since the mast is moved forward, increased weather helm is not a problem. The center of effort moves forward too. I think you would find that flying an asymetrical would be both rewarding and challenging. It, I think, is important to try to understand any boat's rig if you are going to try to sail it, and to recognize that there is more than one good way to skin a cat. Ron
Rob, the new rig, the Bergstrom and Ridder, allows the main sail to be bigger as a result of moving the mast forward in the boat. This makes a large headsail unnecessary. Removing the backstay allows there to be more sail area at the top of the roach creating a shape that is much more efficient. A large main is easier to handle than a large headsail. The Bergstrom rig, is the earlier fractional rig with backstay,which, if yours is not a masthead rig,we both sail. The Bergstrom rig is an excellent rig as well, though the main is not as powerful and a larger headsail is necessary to balance the rig. On a B and R rig, since the mast is moved forward, increased weather helm is not a problem. The center of effort moves forward too. I think you would find that flying an asymetrical would be both rewarding and challenging. It, I think, is important to try to understand any boat's rig if you are going to try to sail it, and to recognize that there is more than one good way to skin a cat. Ron
Cruising Chute + (B&R Rig) = FUN!!!
I have a 165XVS Spindrifter Asymetrical Spinnaker that I fly on my Hunter 26, which has no backstay. Once you trim it in, it balances nicely, the helm has a nice light touch and the boat flies. I love it. An advantage of the B&R rig is the boat sails pretty well with out the jib, much like a catboat. Okay, so it doesn't point as high, but if you are shorthanded on a breezy day, it handles nicely. As far as changes to improve the breed, they are usually evolutionary. I think the changes on the 290 as compared to the previous 280 & 29.5 are great. Mike Pajewski h26 "Loon"
I have a 165XVS Spindrifter Asymetrical Spinnaker that I fly on my Hunter 26, which has no backstay. Once you trim it in, it balances nicely, the helm has a nice light touch and the boat flies. I love it. An advantage of the B&R rig is the boat sails pretty well with out the jib, much like a catboat. Okay, so it doesn't point as high, but if you are shorthanded on a breezy day, it handles nicely. As far as changes to improve the breed, they are usually evolutionary. I think the changes on the 290 as compared to the previous 280 & 29.5 are great. Mike Pajewski h26 "Loon"
Sailing a very old concept
Sailing has it changed in the past four thousand years, You've got a hull that somehow displacese water, you've got some rags extended on some tree limbs, that give you momentum, and a paddle hanging off the stern to give you some form of direction, now to keep more rag material on those limbs you need a counterweightt, so the keel was born, but if your vessel was made of reeds or kevlar, you still can only go as fast as the displacement allows, so if you have a clipper classic or a tupperware euro special, enjoy the fresh breeze in your face, the solotude and peace at the helm, and enjoy sailing, don't worry what they'll come up with, next, they're not going any faster, and if they do who cares, if you wanted to go fast in the first place, you'd be a smoker.
Sailing has it changed in the past four thousand years, You've got a hull that somehow displacese water, you've got some rags extended on some tree limbs, that give you momentum, and a paddle hanging off the stern to give you some form of direction, now to keep more rag material on those limbs you need a counterweightt, so the keel was born, but if your vessel was made of reeds or kevlar, you still can only go as fast as the displacement allows, so if you have a clipper classic or a tupperware euro special, enjoy the fresh breeze in your face, the solotude and peace at the helm, and enjoy sailing, don't worry what they'll come up with, next, they're not going any faster, and if they do who cares, if you wanted to go fast in the first place, you'd be a smoker.
B&R rig good for it's original purpose
The B&R rig was designed for hardcore short course racing . It is not a "new' rig but it has been re-introduced by hunter. it's design allows for the ability to tack rapidly with less loss of power than a marconi rig with the larger headsail. It suffers on the downwind leg as the main can not be sheeted out fully due to the raked back shrouds. there is also the risk of the boom riding on and overloading the shrouds.The small headsail requires the use of a spinaker when other rigs would not require the sail change . It is also a very difficult rig to tune. From the book rigs and rigging "If a bird were released near the mast in a B&R rig it would have a hard time finding it's way out" This is a short course racing rig not a great crusing rig but it looks cool.
The B&R rig was designed for hardcore short course racing . It is not a "new' rig but it has been re-introduced by hunter. it's design allows for the ability to tack rapidly with less loss of power than a marconi rig with the larger headsail. It suffers on the downwind leg as the main can not be sheeted out fully due to the raked back shrouds. there is also the risk of the boom riding on and overloading the shrouds.The small headsail requires the use of a spinaker when other rigs would not require the sail change . It is also a very difficult rig to tune. From the book rigs and rigging "If a bird were released near the mast in a B&R rig it would have a hard time finding it's way out" This is a short course racing rig not a great crusing rig but it looks cool.
Downwind sailing in the trades with B&R rig
As I have pointed out in previous discussions, there are several good ways of sailing downwind (even DDW) with the B&R rig. Symmetric or asymmetric chutes have already been mentioned in this thread. In tradewinds conditions with heavy swells and the threat of sudden squalls a safer solution is to go wing-on-wing with double headsails. I intended to download a photograph of Rivendel II (Legend 43) in the South Pacific trades with wing-on-wing genoa and staysail, but Phil's software did not accept my 96 k GIF image. However, it shows the two headsails poled out on opposite sides, both immediately furlable in case of squalls (the heavy pole for the 110 genoa stays in place with topping lift and guys, whereas the small pole for the staysail follows the clew forward when the sail is furled). Also, it shows the double reefed main sheeted out (on the side of the genoa) just far enough to keep the mains'l off the spreaders, thereby not providing much drive but helping to stabilize the boat against excessive rolling. This sailplan was good for troublefree 150 NM+ days while providing excellent directional stability, thus facilitating the work of the windvane (Scanmar Autohelm), even DDW. Of course, installing a staysail with running backstays is not exactly a cheap operation. However, together with the installation of the windvane, this was the best bluewater modification we ever made to Rivendel II. Flying Dutchman
As I have pointed out in previous discussions, there are several good ways of sailing downwind (even DDW) with the B&R rig. Symmetric or asymmetric chutes have already been mentioned in this thread. In tradewinds conditions with heavy swells and the threat of sudden squalls a safer solution is to go wing-on-wing with double headsails. I intended to download a photograph of Rivendel II (Legend 43) in the South Pacific trades with wing-on-wing genoa and staysail, but Phil's software did not accept my 96 k GIF image. However, it shows the two headsails poled out on opposite sides, both immediately furlable in case of squalls (the heavy pole for the 110 genoa stays in place with topping lift and guys, whereas the small pole for the staysail follows the clew forward when the sail is furled). Also, it shows the double reefed main sheeted out (on the side of the genoa) just far enough to keep the mains'l off the spreaders, thereby not providing much drive but helping to stabilize the boat against excessive rolling. This sailplan was good for troublefree 150 NM+ days while providing excellent directional stability, thus facilitating the work of the windvane (Scanmar Autohelm), even DDW. Of course, installing a staysail with running backstays is not exactly a cheap operation. However, together with the installation of the windvane, this was the best bluewater modification we ever made to Rivendel II. Flying Dutchman
Rivendel II w. wing-on-wing jibs (photoforum link)
With Phil's on-line instructions (does he ever sleep?) I was able to load the photograph showing Rivendel's downwind sailplan anyhow. Also note the two block-and-tackle type preventers on the boom and the person doing some foredeck jobs (me). Flying Dutchman http://www.sailboatowners.com/upload/pix.tpl?folder=Meuzelaar7304679434&sku=30279842371489562&fno=17
With Phil's on-line instructions (does he ever sleep?) I was able to load the photograph showing Rivendel's downwind sailplan anyhow. Also note the two block-and-tackle type preventers on the boom and the person doing some foredeck jobs (me). Flying Dutchman http://www.sailboatowners.com/upload/pix.tpl?folder=Meuzelaar7304679434&sku=30279842371489562&fno=17
In reality, B&R not easier to handle
I disagree that the B&R rig is easier to handle because of the large main and small jib. Think about it, every time you hoist the main, maybe you can get it up about 1/3 the way, after that it's a real struggle. I've seen many posts about how hard the main is to hoist. About grinding in a huge genoa, if done correctly, you don't even have to use the winch, you can bring it in by hand if you and the helmsman (or woman)coordinate properly. I think the B&R rig's "advantages" are only on the surface, in reality you are giving up more. The key words are "marketing" and "product differentiation"...
I disagree that the B&R rig is easier to handle because of the large main and small jib. Think about it, every time you hoist the main, maybe you can get it up about 1/3 the way, after that it's a real struggle. I've seen many posts about how hard the main is to hoist. About grinding in a huge genoa, if done correctly, you don't even have to use the winch, you can bring it in by hand if you and the helmsman (or woman)coordinate properly. I think the B&R rig's "advantages" are only on the surface, in reality you are giving up more. The key words are "marketing" and "product differentiation"...
Handling the main...
Rick, Was curious about your comment of difficult hoisting after the first third of the main is up. Although I only have a H31 with a 'P' of 37'5", I can hoist the main all the way to the top by hand with little or no difficulty. I only use the winch to get a crease if desired for the day's wind. The entire sail track is lubricated with dry, teflon-type spray (non-dust collecting type) and each track slide attached to the sail gets waxed front, sides, and back once each year. (My boat is 15 years old.) B&R rig has little to do with hoisting ease? (Not sure what the rig has to do with the sail track.) Personnally, I prefer the B&R. The mainsheet I have has 6:1 purchase and is easy to control compared to a jib sheet under load. Yes, if helm and crew coordinate, crew can usually trim the jib completely. But what about a singlehander? Small jibs are good (better) for singlehanding. I prefer smaller jib also due to gusts in coastal cruising; smaller jib reduces effect and main is easier to sheet out "temporarily". If one wants to reduce heel during gusts, the main is far easier to control than easing the jib then retrimming it under load. Anyway, it's all a matter of preference and the number of crew you have available to control the boat. Disadvantages of the B&R: 1) The little tell-tales get stuck on the aft outers 2) Boom will not go out as far as I'd like but they're still making spinnakers 3) catches a lot of wind in the marina 4) howls to beat heck in 20+knots 5) Real pain in (your favorite spot) to tune after restepping mast 6) extra spares required for long cruises Are they worth the gains? Oh, probably not. (IMHO) Are they charging me extra for the B&R versus a standard rig? Oh, probably not. If I hate it that bad, can I find a different boat? Oh, probably so. Just another point of view. "to each his own" Jay
Rick, Was curious about your comment of difficult hoisting after the first third of the main is up. Although I only have a H31 with a 'P' of 37'5", I can hoist the main all the way to the top by hand with little or no difficulty. I only use the winch to get a crease if desired for the day's wind. The entire sail track is lubricated with dry, teflon-type spray (non-dust collecting type) and each track slide attached to the sail gets waxed front, sides, and back once each year. (My boat is 15 years old.) B&R rig has little to do with hoisting ease? (Not sure what the rig has to do with the sail track.) Personnally, I prefer the B&R. The mainsheet I have has 6:1 purchase and is easy to control compared to a jib sheet under load. Yes, if helm and crew coordinate, crew can usually trim the jib completely. But what about a singlehander? Small jibs are good (better) for singlehanding. I prefer smaller jib also due to gusts in coastal cruising; smaller jib reduces effect and main is easier to sheet out "temporarily". If one wants to reduce heel during gusts, the main is far easier to control than easing the jib then retrimming it under load. Anyway, it's all a matter of preference and the number of crew you have available to control the boat. Disadvantages of the B&R: 1) The little tell-tales get stuck on the aft outers 2) Boom will not go out as far as I'd like but they're still making spinnakers 3) catches a lot of wind in the marina 4) howls to beat heck in 20+knots 5) Real pain in (your favorite spot) to tune after restepping mast 6) extra spares required for long cruises Are they worth the gains? Oh, probably not. (IMHO) Are they charging me extra for the B&R versus a standard rig? Oh, probably not. If I hate it that bad, can I find a different boat? Oh, probably so. Just another point of view. "to each his own" Jay
I like big mains, small headsails
I have no experience with the B&R rig, but like Jay, I prefer a large main and moderate foretriangle to the opposite. We have a 310 ft^2 main, 2+2 battened, and I have no trouble hoisting it to within the last few feet by hand. I don't know whether the prebend induced by the B&R rig would make hoisting more difficult. Personally, I dislike the complexity of the B&R rig and the inability to let the main out more. But I like the idea of a large, full roached main. Everything on a boat is a compromise.
I have no experience with the B&R rig, but like Jay, I prefer a large main and moderate foretriangle to the opposite. We have a 310 ft^2 main, 2+2 battened, and I have no trouble hoisting it to within the last few feet by hand. I don't know whether the prebend induced by the B&R rig would make hoisting more difficult. Personally, I dislike the complexity of the B&R rig and the inability to let the main out more. But I like the idea of a large, full roached main. Everything on a boat is a compromise.
Upwind capability counts for racers & cruisers
Convenience in hoisting and trimming sails is indeed a matter of preference and gives rise to such abominations as a B&R rig with in-mast furling. What counts for me, however, is upwind capability. Just put two boats with identical hulls, crew and total sail area, but large-main/small-jib versus large-jib/small-main, on a race course with a rhumbline straight into the wind and which boat will win? Of course, upwind capability has everything to do with the evolution of sailing. In the days of the round-bottomed square riggers many vessels practically tacked through 150-170 degrees. Throw in their tendency to make leeway and it adds up to no upwind VMG (velocity made good) whatsoever. As more and more genoa type jibs and staysails were added and more advanced hull shapes evolved upwind ability improved to that of the great clipper ships; i.e. tacking through 140-150 degree angles. (I am quoting these numbers from memory and apologize if I am off a bit). Then the last vestiges of the square rig disappeared and we got schooner, yawl, ketch and sloop rigs with only fore-and-aft sails, including 150 % genoas, while seeing tacking angles dip into the 120-140 degree range. (yeah, I know there are Colin Archer owners who will swear that they can tack through 90 degrees; however, I am talking true wind angles as well as tacking angles that will produce optimum VMGs). Not until the Marconi rig with large-roached, full-battened main appeared did it become possible for racers (and cruisers) to really tack through 90 degrees, or so. (sorry for the long-winded excursion and the sloppy tack angles; everyone can wake up now
What this means for sailors is that the sea around them has truly opened up. From only being able to sail HALF of the compass rose in the square rigger age, those with conventional rigs and hulls can now sail TWO-THIRD (the round-bottomed, masthead-rigged Dufour 36 Classic tested in December's Cruising World tacks through 120 degrees), whereas the most advanced vessels can sail THREE-QUART of the compass rose without having to fire up the iron genny in order to maintain VMG. So what? The sea is large enough, right? Well, sometimes it ain't.... That upwind ability may save your bacon next time you find yourself suddenly on a lee shore, embayed between two headlands (as happened to us along the Baja Coast, just South of Turtle Bay). That upwind ability may double your sensible options when trying to evade a big storm (running is usually not one of them) or may allow you to reach the safety of an upwind harbor in the face of an oncoming weather system. Finally, upwind capability will enable you to stop following the old clipper routes, e.g. around the Pacific and Atlantic Highs, and save many hundreds of miles (as we did in 1994 returning to Santa Barbara from Hawaii) while avoiding needless exposure to higher latitude storms. In June 2000 I will be able to put my theory of improved cruising route choices for vessels with great upwind ability to the test once again as we attempt to sail Rivendel II (Hunter Legend 43, hull #1)) from Queensland, Australia to Fiji against the prevailing tradewinds without following the deep Southern route (almost via New Zealand) advised by Jimmy Cornell's World Cruising Routes almanac. Crossing the Tasman Sea is tough enough if you really have to. No need to go sightseeing there on a big old detour if your destination lies elsewhere.... Flying Dutchman
Convenience in hoisting and trimming sails is indeed a matter of preference and gives rise to such abominations as a B&R rig with in-mast furling. What counts for me, however, is upwind capability. Just put two boats with identical hulls, crew and total sail area, but large-main/small-jib versus large-jib/small-main, on a race course with a rhumbline straight into the wind and which boat will win? Of course, upwind capability has everything to do with the evolution of sailing. In the days of the round-bottomed square riggers many vessels practically tacked through 150-170 degrees. Throw in their tendency to make leeway and it adds up to no upwind VMG (velocity made good) whatsoever. As more and more genoa type jibs and staysails were added and more advanced hull shapes evolved upwind ability improved to that of the great clipper ships; i.e. tacking through 140-150 degree angles. (I am quoting these numbers from memory and apologize if I am off a bit). Then the last vestiges of the square rig disappeared and we got schooner, yawl, ketch and sloop rigs with only fore-and-aft sails, including 150 % genoas, while seeing tacking angles dip into the 120-140 degree range. (yeah, I know there are Colin Archer owners who will swear that they can tack through 90 degrees; however, I am talking true wind angles as well as tacking angles that will produce optimum VMGs). Not until the Marconi rig with large-roached, full-battened main appeared did it become possible for racers (and cruisers) to really tack through 90 degrees, or so. (sorry for the long-winded excursion and the sloppy tack angles; everyone can wake up now
What this means for sailors is that the sea around them has truly opened up. From only being able to sail HALF of the compass rose in the square rigger age, those with conventional rigs and hulls can now sail TWO-THIRD (the round-bottomed, masthead-rigged Dufour 36 Classic tested in December's Cruising World tacks through 120 degrees), whereas the most advanced vessels can sail THREE-QUART of the compass rose without having to fire up the iron genny in order to maintain VMG. So what? The sea is large enough, right? Well, sometimes it ain't.... That upwind ability may save your bacon next time you find yourself suddenly on a lee shore, embayed between two headlands (as happened to us along the Baja Coast, just South of Turtle Bay). That upwind ability may double your sensible options when trying to evade a big storm (running is usually not one of them) or may allow you to reach the safety of an upwind harbor in the face of an oncoming weather system. Finally, upwind capability will enable you to stop following the old clipper routes, e.g. around the Pacific and Atlantic Highs, and save many hundreds of miles (as we did in 1994 returning to Santa Barbara from Hawaii) while avoiding needless exposure to higher latitude storms. In June 2000 I will be able to put my theory of improved cruising route choices for vessels with great upwind ability to the test once again as we attempt to sail Rivendel II (Hunter Legend 43, hull #1)) from Queensland, Australia to Fiji against the prevailing tradewinds without following the deep Southern route (almost via New Zealand) advised by Jimmy Cornell's World Cruising Routes almanac. Crossing the Tasman Sea is tough enough if you really have to. No need to go sightseeing there on a big old detour if your destination lies elsewhere.... Flying DutchmanSome more..
2 issues were not really addressed in the many replies : 1.The very limited capability for B&R rig to really sail off the wind; You might get away with some compromise in light to fresh winds,but when one of the very few SAFE option for boat and crew in heavier weather (coupled with high waves) is to run before the wind ,you might get broached if unable to let the boom square to 80-90 degrees. One can do it with jib only but with some -heavily reefed-main , you get more direction stability and less rolling. 2,Regarding the ability to sail close to the wind and tack at minimal angles, it is correct ,UNLESS coupled with shallow fin-wing keel , the standard one on many new (93 and on) models , including mine..The boat point high , but you get a lot of lee way..especially in wave condition. (I understand this issue was addressed by Hunter in last 2-3 years, with more deep keels on more models being NOW the norm..)
2 issues were not really addressed in the many replies : 1.The very limited capability for B&R rig to really sail off the wind; You might get away with some compromise in light to fresh winds,but when one of the very few SAFE option for boat and crew in heavier weather (coupled with high waves) is to run before the wind ,you might get broached if unable to let the boom square to 80-90 degrees. One can do it with jib only but with some -heavily reefed-main , you get more direction stability and less rolling. 2,Regarding the ability to sail close to the wind and tack at minimal angles, it is correct ,UNLESS coupled with shallow fin-wing keel , the standard one on many new (93 and on) models , including mine..The boat point high , but you get a lot of lee way..especially in wave condition. (I understand this issue was addressed by Hunter in last 2-3 years, with more deep keels on more models being NOW the norm..)
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