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Bad info
I'll guarantee that if you remove your backstay, you will get demasted faster than you can sheet the sails in. They are talking about some of the newer models. I have a H-31.
I'll guarantee that if you remove your backstay, you will get demasted faster than you can sheet the sails in. They are talking about some of the newer models. I have a H-31.
Yes!
Newer vessels with no backstay were designed that way. The h31 wasn't. Like Jim sail you will loose the rig in a hurry
Newer vessels with no backstay were designed that way. The h31 wasn't. Like Jim sail you will loose the rig in a hurry
Bizarre and Ridiculous Rig....
As the owner of a B&R rigged H28.5, I can find no advantages, and lots of disadvantages, of this style rig. Not long ago, "Sail" Mag ran an article comparing and contrasting different rigs and you may want to try to find that. I seem to recall the article focussing on reduced mast section and no need for a backstay. However.... on my boat the mast section looks about as stout as other similar sized boats and I have twin backstays. My concern with this rig is that it makes it really hard to sail downwind without laying your main up on the spreaders and risk chafe or holing it. Finally, I dread the thought of replacing the standing rigging on this boat as the B&R rig seems to consist of twice as much wire and end fittings than a conventional rig.... Seems like the worst of both worlds.
As the owner of a B&R rigged H28.5, I can find no advantages, and lots of disadvantages, of this style rig. Not long ago, "Sail" Mag ran an article comparing and contrasting different rigs and you may want to try to find that. I seem to recall the article focussing on reduced mast section and no need for a backstay. However.... on my boat the mast section looks about as stout as other similar sized boats and I have twin backstays. My concern with this rig is that it makes it really hard to sail downwind without laying your main up on the spreaders and risk chafe or holing it. Finally, I dread the thought of replacing the standing rigging on this boat as the B&R rig seems to consist of twice as much wire and end fittings than a conventional rig.... Seems like the worst of both worlds.
I wouldn't do it
If you look in the "More Fun" forum and then click on "reference library", you will find a discussion on the merits of the B&R rig. Your rig, however, is a masthead rig and you need that backstay, so don't mess!
If you look in the "More Fun" forum and then click on "reference library", you will find a discussion on the merits of the B&R rig. Your rig, however, is a masthead rig and you need that backstay, so don't mess!
Interesting dialog.
Seems people have a love/hate relationship with B&R. It is interesting that the design was to permit large mains and smaller, easily handled jibs. Then everyone opts for in-mast furling and they are right back to small mains with small jibs. Despite that they are still fast. Sure, you have to tack downwind. But if you are making eight knots that would seem preferable to four knots going dead downwind.
Seems people have a love/hate relationship with B&R. It is interesting that the design was to permit large mains and smaller, easily handled jibs. Then everyone opts for in-mast furling and they are right back to small mains with small jibs. Despite that they are still fast. Sure, you have to tack downwind. But if you are making eight knots that would seem preferable to four knots going dead downwind.
Swept Spreaders ......
allow you to prebend the mast to give you better sail shape (and rig strength)
allow you to prebend the mast to give you better sail shape (and rig strength)
Three shrouds spaced at 60 degrees is stronger than four which is why a radio towers regardless of height have three not four guys/stays.
Check the Performance
Just look at the PHRF numbers for the newer Hunters without backstays vs the mid 80's B&R mast head rigs and you will see Hunter has actually sacrificed some performance for what thy perceive to be more user friendly traits. Boat for boat, I'd run my 28.5 against any similar sized boat without a B&R rig and I'd expect the following: With a backstay adjuster, I can bend the mast, depower or flatten the main and point higher even in higher winds. With the swept back spreaders I can sheet in tight with my 155% Genoa and point with the best of them up wind. With no baby stay in front of a double spreader rigged mast, a B&R rig can be tacked faster. Down wind, learn how to jibe from broad reach to broad reach and you will be faster than you would on a dead run. Now if you are looking at a cruising shoal draft boat and don't use the performance options, then tuning a B&R rig is probably a waste of your time. Ask Fred what he thinks of the performance of the B&R rigged 34's vs the newer frac rigged boats with wide spreader base and without backstays.
Just look at the PHRF numbers for the newer Hunters without backstays vs the mid 80's B&R mast head rigs and you will see Hunter has actually sacrificed some performance for what thy perceive to be more user friendly traits. Boat for boat, I'd run my 28.5 against any similar sized boat without a B&R rig and I'd expect the following: With a backstay adjuster, I can bend the mast, depower or flatten the main and point higher even in higher winds. With the swept back spreaders I can sheet in tight with my 155% Genoa and point with the best of them up wind. With no baby stay in front of a double spreader rigged mast, a B&R rig can be tacked faster. Down wind, learn how to jibe from broad reach to broad reach and you will be faster than you would on a dead run. Now if you are looking at a cruising shoal draft boat and don't use the performance options, then tuning a B&R rig is probably a waste of your time. Ask Fred what he thinks of the performance of the B&R rigged 34's vs the newer frac rigged boats with wide spreader base and without backstays.
Yes, the SAIL mag article is what got me thinking.
I read that SAIL mag. article and it was the inspiration that led to this post. However, I remember it being somewhat complimentary of the B&R setup, but it did mention that one advantage is lack of backstay. Based on your warnings, I hope someone wouldn't read the article and remove it without researching the risks. Mine will definately stay. Regarding the swept spreaders limiting mainsail trim downwind....My (very limited) sailing experience has taught me that sheeting the main way out perpendicular with the wind is not efficient. Consequently, sheeting it in some will provide some lift and more speed. I have only sailed my 31 once bringing it home, then the work started, so have virtually no experience with this boat. Moved up from an Oday 25. Was surprised to hear you must tack downwind??? Mainsail trim is THAT limited with the rig? Thanks for the input.....Gary
I read that SAIL mag. article and it was the inspiration that led to this post. However, I remember it being somewhat complimentary of the B&R setup, but it did mention that one advantage is lack of backstay. Based on your warnings, I hope someone wouldn't read the article and remove it without researching the risks. Mine will definately stay. Regarding the swept spreaders limiting mainsail trim downwind....My (very limited) sailing experience has taught me that sheeting the main way out perpendicular with the wind is not efficient. Consequently, sheeting it in some will provide some lift and more speed. I have only sailed my 31 once bringing it home, then the work started, so have virtually no experience with this boat. Moved up from an Oday 25. Was surprised to hear you must tack downwind??? Mainsail trim is THAT limited with the rig? Thanks for the input.....Gary
Tacking and Gybing
A couple of comments about the swept back spreaders that may help clear up some of your confusion about down wind sailing. First, when heading upwind, the swept back design allows you to sheet the jib in closer to the centerline than a conventional rig. This is a good thing. It will help you point higher to the apparent wind. When sailing down wind, the swept back spreaders limit the distance you can sheet out the main. Thus you can't get the classic "running" position of the main all the way out to beam with the wind directly behind you. As a consequence, you won't be able to sail effectively dead down wind. (There's a whole other discussion about whether DDW is an efficient point of sail.) Because of the spreader limitation, your H-31 will sail most effectively on a broad reach. Therefore, to get to a point dead down wind, you have to do a series of gybes (from broad reach to broad reach). Sometimes people refer to this as tacking down wind. Regarding the backstay, I thought about it after the last time I had the mast stepped. The yard guys basically undid the backstay before they even attached the sling, saying it wasn't necessary because of the B&R rig. Well, the mast didn't fall down, but I've come to regard the backstay as a little added comfort, especially when sailing with the spinnaker full in a freshening breeze! I don't have a backstay adjuster on it, so I've not tried to bend the mast with it, but generally it's not a bother and I see no real advantage in removing it. Fair winds, - Richard S/V "Discovery" San Francisco
A couple of comments about the swept back spreaders that may help clear up some of your confusion about down wind sailing. First, when heading upwind, the swept back design allows you to sheet the jib in closer to the centerline than a conventional rig. This is a good thing. It will help you point higher to the apparent wind. When sailing down wind, the swept back spreaders limit the distance you can sheet out the main. Thus you can't get the classic "running" position of the main all the way out to beam with the wind directly behind you. As a consequence, you won't be able to sail effectively dead down wind. (There's a whole other discussion about whether DDW is an efficient point of sail.) Because of the spreader limitation, your H-31 will sail most effectively on a broad reach. Therefore, to get to a point dead down wind, you have to do a series of gybes (from broad reach to broad reach). Sometimes people refer to this as tacking down wind. Regarding the backstay, I thought about it after the last time I had the mast stepped. The yard guys basically undid the backstay before they even attached the sling, saying it wasn't necessary because of the B&R rig. Well, the mast didn't fall down, but I've come to regard the backstay as a little added comfort, especially when sailing with the spinnaker full in a freshening breeze! I don't have a backstay adjuster on it, so I've not tried to bend the mast with it, but generally it's not a bother and I see no real advantage in removing it. Fair winds, - Richard S/V "Discovery" San Francisco
S, I'm with you.
I used to have a pulley system for my split backstay adjuster. Went to a Navtec hydraulic ram. As you know, backstay adjust-ability is a good thing on masthead rigged boats. B&R rig or not.
I used to have a pulley system for my split backstay adjuster. Went to a Navtec hydraulic ram. As you know, backstay adjust-ability is a good thing on masthead rigged boats. B&R rig or not.
Gotta dispell
this argument about gybing downwind always being faster than ddw. Ain't necessarily so. The magic number is your VMG and this is turn limited by hull speed (or thereabouts.) What this means is that if there's enough breeze to move your boat ddw at or near hull speed then there's no way you can get a better VMG by gybing because this would require sustaining a speed significantly greater than hull speed (assuming a displacement hull.) The windspeed at which the gybing advantage will disappear will depend on your boat's particular polars but its safe to generalize (a little) by saying that in light air when hull speed would not be attained that gybing can yield a better VMG. In heavier air this may not be the case. I cringe when I see this 'gybing downwind is always faster' theory because it's likely being borne by those with B&R's who are under the impression that because the boom can't be let out that final 20 or 25 degrees that their boat is incapable of a true run. Beyond those last few degrees the issues are no different than a standard rig. Vang it hard, prevent it and don't let hook on the spreaders. You can poke a hole in a main with the spreaders of ANY rig. Yes, with the B&R you lose some efficiency but I'll wager it's not as much as you think and it's certainly not an issue in heavier air (compared to gybing.) You may wish to gybe regardless of wind strength due to motion but thats another issue. Also, I'm going to take issue with the 'sheeting tighter means you can point higher' statements I keep reading. Again, I think that's a gross oversimplification. On the surface this may literally be true in the sense that it allows you to more closely 'aim' your boat at your destination. However, this assumes that your underwater foils are deep and efficient enough to translate this angle into a track that'll actually take you there. In other words, with most relatively shoal production boats, pointing at your target doesn't mean you're actually going there. You're probably slipping sideways and losing that precious VMG. Why? For the same reason that pinching won't get you there faster. You'll slow down which destroys VMG which in turn reduces lift by the keel and rudder which aggravates things further. Anyway, those're my opinions. They're worth what you paid for 'em. Fair winds.
this argument about gybing downwind always being faster than ddw. Ain't necessarily so. The magic number is your VMG and this is turn limited by hull speed (or thereabouts.) What this means is that if there's enough breeze to move your boat ddw at or near hull speed then there's no way you can get a better VMG by gybing because this would require sustaining a speed significantly greater than hull speed (assuming a displacement hull.) The windspeed at which the gybing advantage will disappear will depend on your boat's particular polars but its safe to generalize (a little) by saying that in light air when hull speed would not be attained that gybing can yield a better VMG. In heavier air this may not be the case. I cringe when I see this 'gybing downwind is always faster' theory because it's likely being borne by those with B&R's who are under the impression that because the boom can't be let out that final 20 or 25 degrees that their boat is incapable of a true run. Beyond those last few degrees the issues are no different than a standard rig. Vang it hard, prevent it and don't let hook on the spreaders. You can poke a hole in a main with the spreaders of ANY rig. Yes, with the B&R you lose some efficiency but I'll wager it's not as much as you think and it's certainly not an issue in heavier air (compared to gybing.) You may wish to gybe regardless of wind strength due to motion but thats another issue. Also, I'm going to take issue with the 'sheeting tighter means you can point higher' statements I keep reading. Again, I think that's a gross oversimplification. On the surface this may literally be true in the sense that it allows you to more closely 'aim' your boat at your destination. However, this assumes that your underwater foils are deep and efficient enough to translate this angle into a track that'll actually take you there. In other words, with most relatively shoal production boats, pointing at your target doesn't mean you're actually going there. You're probably slipping sideways and losing that precious VMG. Why? For the same reason that pinching won't get you there faster. You'll slow down which destroys VMG which in turn reduces lift by the keel and rudder which aggravates things further. Anyway, those're my opinions. They're worth what you paid for 'em. Fair winds.
Rick, you've done it again. Well written too.
Those of us who buoy race may recall the races we won or lost because of high winds and our rating that allowed or didn't allow flying sails. You can only go so fast dead down wind.
Those of us who buoy race may recall the races we won or lost because of high winds and our rating that allowed or didn't allow flying sails. You can only go so fast dead down wind.
Right on Rick
I sail a B&R with a shoal draft keel. It's not often (if ever) that I'm going where I'm pointed. I use the vang and preventer and sail dead downwind often and I don't think I'm giving up much.
I sail a B&R with a shoal draft keel. It's not often (if ever) that I'm going where I'm pointed. I use the vang and preventer and sail dead downwind often and I don't think I'm giving up much.
Ken
There is nothing wrong with you wanting to sail DDW. If you like to then by all means do it. However, it is the slowest point of sail (usually). If you were racing, and lets face it in racing you are trying to get to the mark as quickly as possible, you would quickly realize that the rest of the fleet is ahead of you because they are sailing angles for the best VMG. Its not rocket science or magic it's simple math.
There is nothing wrong with you wanting to sail DDW. If you like to then by all means do it. However, it is the slowest point of sail (usually). If you were racing, and lets face it in racing you are trying to get to the mark as quickly as possible, you would quickly realize that the rest of the fleet is ahead of you because they are sailing angles for the best VMG. Its not rocket science or magic it's simple math.
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