B&R rig question

[Sublime]

I'm full of questions today

When sailing a B&R rig, on a broad reach the sail leans against the spreader and stays which distorts sail shape. I presume this renders the forward telltails usless (correct me if I'm wrong). So I go by the telltales that are on the leech. Is this the proper way to do it? Sometimes this causes the luff to flutter but the stays and spreader can't possibly allow that part of the sail to be at the proper angle of attack.

I was paying closer attention to my guests and not sail trim this day when someone snapped a picture of the sail, but thought it would illustrate my observations if I'm not making any sense.

The manufacture clearly expected this as the sail has extra material where the spreader is.

 

[Nodak7]

I'm full of questions today

When sailing a B&R rig, on a broad reach the sail leans against the spreader and stays which distorts sail shape. I presume this renders the forward telltails useless (correct me if I'm wrong). So I go by the telltales that are on the leech. Is this the proper way to do it? Sometimes this causes the luff to flutter but the stays and spreader can't possibly allow that part of the sail to be at the proper angle of attack.

I was paying closer attention to my guests and not sail trim this day when someone snapped a picture of the sail, but thought it would illustrate my observations if I'm not making any sense.

The manufacture clearly expected this as the sail has extra material where the spreader is.

I my humble opinion you have two issues here Sublime. First issue is that the exaggerated swept back spreaders of a B&R Rig will not allow you to go to far downwind. You will have to adjust your point of sail. Unfortunately there is not much adjustment you can make to mitigate this. Second the sail manufacturer did reinforce those points on your sail in anticipation of this but if you continue to allow the rubbing of the sail on the spreader it will damage the sail.

So now I have answered your question lets hear from the real "experts" which will immediately make me sound like an idiot!

 

[Eric M]

Back in my J/24 days (a similar rig best I can tell from your photo) I would never ease the main as far as you have it out. Ease till it touches the spreader where the sail has the extra re-inforcements, but not so far that you get the whole sidestay pushing into the backside of the sail. Any extended time like this and you will wear a hole in your sail. Remember to use your vang to control the leech of the sail.
Play around with it a bit, I would almost bet you can get better boat speed on your same course with the main trimmed to get a better shape where it is not doubled over your whole sidestay. Good luck!

 

[Sublime]

The swept back spreaders and deep sail make it a good deal more difficult. If I sailed without the sail touching the spreaders, all I'd be able to do is a close reach. Even on a reach it touches.

And to reiterate, this was under main alone. I need to have the loft put in a reef so I can sail with a jib under the conditions I normally get where I sail. Maybe that's the answer since the Jib would allow me to pull the mainsail in closer.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Something is certianly wrong if you are in the spreaders on a reach.
I'm thinking your are undr trimed or have hugly blown out sail. The sail does not look that bad BTW.
how fast are you sailing when this happens? Fairly slowly I suspect.
and here we go again
the boat speed should bring the apparent wind direction forward as the boat speeds up. You would have to trim in (boom more amidships) as the boat increses speed.

 

[Sublime]

Something is certianly wrong if you are in the spreaders on a reach.
I'm thinking your are undr trimed or have hugly blown out sail. The sail does not look that bad BTW.
how fast are you sailing when this happens? Fairly slowly I suspect.
and here we go again
the boat speed should bring the apparent wind direction forward as the boat speeds up. You would have to trim in (boom more amidships) as the boat increses speed.

Per GPS, I was moving along at 5.5 mph on main alone. I'm in a lake so there's no current.
The sail is nice and crisp. It's an '04 but I don't think it was used but a handful of times before I got it.
Again, only under main so it is let out more than what you would with a jib. If I hauled it in, it stalled.

 

[Stu Jackson]

1. Use your jib to increase boat speed and move the AW forward as Bill said.

2. Your rig simply with NOT allow you to go downwind very well without hitting the spreaders with your main sail. That said, you have to experiment with how far downwind you actually can go before you hit the spreader. Then gybe.

Really.

 

[Les]

Just an added thought. I've had three Hunters with the B & R mast with the swept back spreaders. Actually four if you count my first Hunter 40 but it had a backstay.

Once I found out that I couldn't go directly downwind and learned (this took some time) how to maximize my off wind direction (I think it was about 158 degrees) we drove the competition in our local races nuts because we would end up ahead of them at the marks even though we were tacking down wind. It was a lot of fun and one year we won "Boat of the Year" overall in local races. We used an asymmetrical chute too.

I tell you this for encouragement. Just don't go directly down wind.

 

[Wanderer138]

I agree with the observations and suggestions posted so far. As an H23 sailor with the "bendy" mast, I've had my far share of challenges with swept-back spreaders.

Your mast looks almost straight in the picture, so you may be able to reduce mainsail draft (flatten the sail) by prebending the mast. Take the mainsail off the boat, lay it flat somewhere and sight along the luff. It should be curved. If you bend the mast to match that curve exactly, the sail would also be completely flat when you hoist it. However, you do need some curve in the sail to develop lift.

While the sail is still flat on the ground or dock, run a line from the head to the tack and measure the maximum depth of the curve (chord) in the luff perpendicular to the line. It should be at a point along the line somewhere between a third and half the distance up the luff from the tack. Put a couple of small dots along the chord with a permanent marker to show the quarter, half and three quarter points of the maximum chord. Any more is overkill.

To "prebend" the mast, ease the lower shrouds completely, then tighten the uppers equally in small increments (two full turns of the turnbuckle at a time) while sighting up the mast in between. The mast will begin to bend in the middle like a bow, with the maximum bend about midway between the spreader base and the mast step.

Once you have bent the mast by about a quarter of the mainsail luff chord (you can measure it by clipping the main halyard shackle to the tack and sighting up the luff using the marks you put on the sail as a reference) the sail should be noticeably flatter. Retighten the lowers to stiffen the mast, then tighten the uppers to the correct tension (leeward upper shroud not quite slack when sailing closehauled).

This adjustment may take an hour or two and you may have to do it a couple of times until you get the right amount of mast bend. I wouldn't try it until I've tried all the other suggestions, which as faster and easier to do. However, I've found it to be a very effective adjustment. Good luck.

 

[harv]

2 points
1.Wanderer is correct- tension the uppers to put a bow in the whole mast. You tighten the lowers to bring the bow out of the lower part of the mast and into the upper part of the mast. This leaves the bend equivalent to a standard rig.
2. You can't sail full downwind with the B&R rig. Tack downwind. Depending on the wind you may beat the standard rig.
These type Hunters are fun boats-have a crowd in the cockpit without the traveler or the mainsheet. Drop the sails without a topping lift. Have a larger mainsail area without the backstay. Small jib-easier sail handing coming about and you don't need a hulkly guy to adjust the jib.
Race it with a crowd aboard, everyone has a great time, and just do your best with what you got.
Above all have fun.

 

[Nodak7]

BTW Sublime! Please do not take any observation on mast bend from the pictures you have posted because I guarantee that they do not depict what it actually is. Your angle of photography must be directly down the mast to the base and even then it can appear different than what it is. The only way to properly determine if the mast is bent properly either fore and aft or port and starboard is to take measurements.

Good luck! Have fun! Summer is almost here!