B & R Rig Opinions Please...

[MKing]

I'd like to throw this one up for all you closet riggers out there with B&R Rig experience. I'm missing something or have a problem. I set my rig (Seldon) up when my boat was delivered using what little / rather vague information Hunter provided. I tried to get more specific instructions (shroud tension, etc.) from Hunter but was told by tech support that the rigs come in from the vendor and are simply shipped with the boat so they could not help. Prebend, in column, centered athwart-ship and rake all as specified with the rigging just snug. Waited for decent wind and tightened the shrouds by sailing the boat and observing them. Rechecked everything back at the dock and seemed okay so I've not worried until now. I ran across some information the other day from Seldon on setting up the B&R which was in line with Hunter except they state one should tighten the shrouds to approximately 20% of breaking strength. Grabbed my trusty Loos gauge and checked mine and that's when the trouble started. My boat sails and seems fine but I've only about 8% on the cap shrouds, 10% on the lowers and 6% on the reverse diagonals. When you pluck them they seem tight but the manufacturer knows best so I began to crank them down... I ran out of turnbuckle on the lowers at 12% so forget 20% and the shrouds seemed incredibly tight so I backed off. What am I missing?

 

[Jennifer S.]

Turnbuckles

I would check the ensure that the turnbuckles are turned on evenly. It sounds like they might not be!

 

[Rick D]

Call Seldon....

...they are the supplier and ought to know. I'd be reluctant to dial more in until doing so. Forgive me if you had already done so. If so, I think I'd try for a rigger, assuming there is one in your area. Rick D.

 

[MKing]

Seldons Position

Rick, I talked to Seldon this morning and although the gentleman was very nice he basically just read me off his screen the information that created my concern to begin with and says he recommends what the screen says. Tom Sharkey who I understand really knows the Hunters and the B&R rig is off this week. My caps and lowers are 1/4" and I think the breaking strength of 1X19 stainless wire rigging is approx 8200lbs which means they want it set at 1640lbs. Maybe I'm just not real bright but that feels way to tight.

 

[BobW]

Is it 20% of WORKING LOAD?

Instead of breaking load?Just wondering.... I have a B&R rig on my H31, and the shrouds don't seem to be excessively tight the way you are describing, MKing. I've got about 6" of rake in the mast.Related question on B&R rigs:How much tension should be on the forestay? I need to replace the bolt holding the base of the furling unit to the bow fitting, and I'd like to do it without dropping the mast (either deliberately or accidentally ). I'm thinking that if I pull down the genoa and anchor the halyard to the bow fitting and crank it down real tight, it should take the tension off the forestay. Any advice?Cheers,BobWs/v X SAIL R 8

 

[MKing]

Not Working Load

BobW, Thanks for trying but that isn't the case. Seldon states 20% of breaking strength. On your question, I don't know about your boat but my sail is cut for approximately 10" sag on the foil according to Seldon and Hunter.Have a great day!

 

[Rick D]

Calling Moody....

...*5

 

[MKing]

Progress?

Hunter says they cannot tell me whether it was Seldon or another vendor who made up the wire rigging using just my hull # but might be able to tell with the serial # on the mast. Hunter also says they use Type 316 1X19 stainless wire instead of Type 302(my mistake) which would change the breaking strength to about 7000lbs depending upon whose chart one uses, puts specified tension at around 1400lbs on 1/4" which still seems really tight to me.

 

[Doug L]

Warped hull?

20% of breaking strength seems enough to drive the mast & mast support right out the bottom of the boat.With 2 shrouds and a forestay all at 20%, what is that 7000 lb, by your figures, that is forcing the mast downward? That seems to be an increadible amount of tension, I sould be worried about the stress on the hull & chainplates. Over a period of time I would expect warpage of the hull with hat much tension, unless you are dealing with a boat MUCH sturdier than my Hunter 26.

 

[Dan Johnson]

B&R rigs...

basically should be set up with the pole down to set pre-bend and the appropriate shroud tensions on the diagonals. Then they are set onto the boat to center the masthead and set the deck connection tensions. Conventional rigging method for mast set-up isn't appropriate for the B&R, but 20% seems excessive. I've never set up tension greater than 12 to 15% of breaking strength. Check the archives as there was a good write-up on the B&R rig a couple of years ago.

 

[MKing]

I Agree

Doug, Those are my concerns however the rig manufacturer and Hunter (depending on who you talk to) maintain that 20% is correct. Check out this link on your 26.

 

[BobW]

Pounds vs. Percentage

I think that's the problem here. Look at it this way:In the link you just posted, MKing, it says:"With all of the cables tensioned so that none are slack, set up RD1 (1/8" / 3.2mm cable) to 356 lbs or 20% of it's nominal breaking strength of 1780 pounds. This should be about 26 on the PT-1 professional Loos Gage. Set D1, D2, and V1 (5/32 / 4mm cable) to 560 lbs or 20% of nominal breaking strength of 2800 pounds. This will be about 37 on the Loos Gage."You seem to be interpreting this passage to mean that tension should always be set at 20% of nominal breaking strength, which for your larger (1/4" vs. 1/8") standing rigging gives correspondingly larger (and absurd) pound values.The operative quantity, as I read it, is the 356 lbs, and it doesn't matter HOW THICK your shrouds are. Think of this: what if you just decided to put 3/8" shrouds on your boat? Would you STILL use 20% of breaking strength? And if you went to 1/2"?So I read the instructions like this:".... set up RD1 (1/8" / 3.2mm cable) to 356 lbs WHICH FOR THIS SIZE OF CABLE HAPPENS TO BE 20% OF ITS NOMINAL BREAKING STRENGTH OF 1780 POUNDS."Please don't take what I'm saying as the advice of a professional rigger (and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night ), but I'd bet a bottle of two-buck-chuck that the correct tensions are RD1 = 356 lbs and D1, D2 & V1 = 560. Hey, I love the disclaimer at the bottom of the page:"Disclaimer: These instructions are for entertainment only. Check with a professional rigger or Hunter Marine before rigging any boat. Use of any part of these procedures is at your own risk. Your decisions, adjustments and actions must be based strictly on your own knowledge and research."Entertainment? ;DCheers,Bob

 

[MKing]

Selden B&R Tuning Guide

Found the link to Selden's tuning guide. Check out pages 51 & 52 for the 20% spec.

 

[BobW]

Are your cap shrouds over-sized?

You said they are 1/4".... is it possible that a PO replaced the originals (maybe 1/8") with larger ones?After reading the Selden manual, I concede that they are very specific about the 20% of breaking strength tension.I do, however, maintain that this figure (20%) is based upon any particular rig having the size shrouds it is designed for. You wouldn't increase the tension if you decided to over-size the wire, would you?Somehow, I think that running out of turnbuckle threads at 12% is pretty convincing evidence that you don't want to go tighter. All this has convinced me that before I work on my forestay, I'm going to get professional advice. ;DCheers,Bobs/v X SAIL R 8

 

[MKing]

Good Luck With The Professional Rigger

Bob, I just posted the 26 link for Doug as I had run across it. The boat in question is a 2004 Hunter 306 of which I am the original owner. The B&R rig components shipped by Hunter with the boat match the owners guide exactly (wire size, length, etc.)Good luck with the professional. In the past couple days I've spoken with a rigger, two brokers, a Hunter dealer, a yard manager, my cat sail maker(who's former Olympic sailing coach kinda experienced)and a number of experienced sailors all of who were unfamiliar with Hunter's B&R rig 20% spec. and none of them set up the rig as Selden suggests. Who's correct, the riggers, dealers and sailors or the boat designer/manufacturer/vendor?Have a great day!

 

[George]

H260 rigging

The rigging notes at the link mentioned should not be taken out of context. The narrative clearly indicates the rigging instructions apply to a H260 model sailboat equipped with Hackensack 316 Stainless Steel 1/8" (3.2mm) 1X19 cable and 5/32" (4mm) 1X19 cable. The values cited are consistent with a properly rigged H260. If the rig performs well with lesser values,(no slack leeward shrouds or shifting of the spar) I'd use the lesser values until more experience is gained under various conditions.